Which is the way to go for indicating a barrel. It seams the "grizzly" rods would be more versatile but perhaps the Indicator/Range rods would be more accurate. What do you experts suggest?
Thanks
Thanks
Gunsmithing PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
- Thread starter Cheech
- Start date
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
I am sure there is a lot of opinion on this matter. I have the Grizzly rods, which started because it was a cheaper way to get everything I needed. However, after thinking and hearing a lot of different things, I think they might actually have an advantage in accuracy. It sounds to me like when using a range or field rod, that if you remove it and put it in the bore a different way, there can actually be a slight variation in the run out indication. Also, I have heard that a scratch or ding in the rod can cause quite a runout reading. With the Grizzly rods, you are only touching the bore with the bushing at different points, as long as the bushing is good and has a decent fit, I don't see how it could be less accurate than a range rod.
This is all my opinion and speculation, both ways have built plenty of 1/2 and 1/4 moa rifles, good practice with either system will yield great results. I have not used range or field rods.
Dave
I am sure there is a lot of opinion on this matter. I have the Grizzly rods, which started because it was a cheaper way to get everything I needed. However, after thinking and hearing a lot of different things, I think they might actually have an advantage in accuracy. It sounds to me like when using a range or field rod, that if you remove it and put it in the bore a different way, there can actually be a slight variation in the run out indication. Also, I have heard that a scratch or ding in the rod can cause quite a runout reading. With the Grizzly rods, you are only touching the bore with the bushing at different points, as long as the bushing is good and has a decent fit, I don't see how it could be less accurate than a range rod.
This is all my opinion and speculation, both ways have built plenty of 1/2 and 1/4 moa rifles, good practice with either system will yield great results. I have not used range or field rods.
Dave
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Sorry, wanted to add that I think setup with the range rod would be easier. Two indicators are needed, but it would be easier to setup than continually moving the grizzly rod back and forth... so that is the advantage I see to the range rod system
Sorry, wanted to add that I think setup with the range rod would be easier. Two indicators are needed, but it would be easier to setup than continually moving the grizzly rod back and forth... so that is the advantage I see to the range rod system
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Stack a circles on top of each other and pick your center(s).
Then remove one, reinstall it, and pick again.
I agree with all the above.
Save yourself some money. Indicate the bore where the bullet enters the throat, single point bore an ID feature concentric with that point, chamber, and move on with your life.
Easy stuff.
C.
Stack a circles on top of each other and pick your center(s).
Then remove one, reinstall it, and pick again.
I agree with all the above.
Save yourself some money. Indicate the bore where the bullet enters the throat, single point bore an ID feature concentric with that point, chamber, and move on with your life.
Easy stuff.
C.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
I use the PT&G range rod and have excellent success with them. It's easy to use with two indicators and takes 5 minutes to indicate a barrel, where your needles are not moving, after a little practice.
The additional benefit of using a range rod is once you've indicated your bore, you can then insert the rod into the muzzle and easily indicate where your 12 o'clock high position is.
I have not tried the grizzly rods so I cannot comment on the positives or negatives.
I use the PT&G range rod and have excellent success with them. It's easy to use with two indicators and takes 5 minutes to indicate a barrel, where your needles are not moving, after a little practice.
The additional benefit of using a range rod is once you've indicated your bore, you can then insert the rod into the muzzle and easily indicate where your 12 o'clock high position is.
I have not tried the grizzly rods so I cannot comment on the positives or negatives.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stack a circles on top of each other and pick your center(s).
Then remove one, reinstall it, and pick again.
</div></div>
what do you mean by stack circles on top of each other?
I dont have any tooling yet, but i think i am going to go with the grizzly rods because three will work for all/most calibers. then i just have to buy bushings. after the first three rods, i will save myself 37 dollars per caliber since i will already have the rod.
from what i understand range rods cannot be used to indicate in where the chamber is, if there is a chamber already cut (ie used barrel or just a caliber type swap) then you cannot use a range rod and would have to use pins anyways to indicate off where the throat is going to be. as far as i understand the grizzly rods will still work where a range rod would not.
also a huge plus if you pull the barrel out after its been chambered and need to chuck it back up to change something about the chamber.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stack a circles on top of each other and pick your center(s).
Then remove one, reinstall it, and pick again.
</div></div>
what do you mean by stack circles on top of each other?
I dont have any tooling yet, but i think i am going to go with the grizzly rods because three will work for all/most calibers. then i just have to buy bushings. after the first three rods, i will save myself 37 dollars per caliber since i will already have the rod.
from what i understand range rods cannot be used to indicate in where the chamber is, if there is a chamber already cut (ie used barrel or just a caliber type swap) then you cannot use a range rod and would have to use pins anyways to indicate off where the throat is going to be. as far as i understand the grizzly rods will still work where a range rod would not.
also a huge plus if you pull the barrel out after its been chambered and need to chuck it back up to change something about the chamber.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
+1 to Chads comments.
+1 to Chads comments.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
From PTG the indicating rods and range rods are two different things. One is for non chambered/muzzles and the other is for barrels that are already chambered.
From PTG the indicating rods and range rods are two different things. One is for non chambered/muzzles and the other is for barrels that are already chambered.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stack a circles on top of each other and pick your center(s).
Then remove one, reinstall it, and pick again.
</div></div>
what do you mean by stack circles on top of each other?
I dont have any tooling yet, but i think i am going to go with the grizzly rods because three will work for all/most calibers. then i just have to buy bushings. after the first three rods, i will save myself 37 dollars per caliber since i will already have the rod.
from what i understand range rods cannot be used to indicate in where the chamber is, if there is a chamber already cut (ie used barrel or just a caliber type swap) then you cannot use a range rod and would have to use pins anyways to indicate off where the throat is going to be. as far as i understand the grizzly rods will still work where a range rod would not.
also a huge plus if you pull the barrel out after its been chambered and need to chuck it back up to change something about the chamber. </div></div>
"Range Rods" are for indicating barrels prior to chambering and "Indicating Rods" are for indicating chambered barrels. Range Rods have a 1.5 degree taper and Indicating Rods have a 3.0 degree taper.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stack a circles on top of each other and pick your center(s).
Then remove one, reinstall it, and pick again.
</div></div>
what do you mean by stack circles on top of each other?
I dont have any tooling yet, but i think i am going to go with the grizzly rods because three will work for all/most calibers. then i just have to buy bushings. after the first three rods, i will save myself 37 dollars per caliber since i will already have the rod.
from what i understand range rods cannot be used to indicate in where the chamber is, if there is a chamber already cut (ie used barrel or just a caliber type swap) then you cannot use a range rod and would have to use pins anyways to indicate off where the throat is going to be. as far as i understand the grizzly rods will still work where a range rod would not.
also a huge plus if you pull the barrel out after its been chambered and need to chuck it back up to change something about the chamber. </div></div>
"Range Rods" are for indicating barrels prior to chambering and "Indicating Rods" are for indicating chambered barrels. Range Rods have a 1.5 degree taper and Indicating Rods have a 3.0 degree taper.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
I'm wanting to chamber a blank. No chamber as of yet. I understand Range rods work for unchamberd barrels only and indicator rods for chambered barrels, but JACQ raises a good question, will grizzley rods work for both? They do seem more cost effective. Also they are longer and, to a point, longer should be better as to spread out the points of measurement giving a more true alignment.
I'm wanting to chamber a blank. No chamber as of yet. I understand Range rods work for unchamberd barrels only and indicator rods for chambered barrels, but JACQ raises a good question, will grizzley rods work for both? They do seem more cost effective. Also they are longer and, to a point, longer should be better as to spread out the points of measurement giving a more true alignment.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
faster vs. cheaper... that is the only discussion here, either system will be capable of dialing in a bore to as accurate as yourself or your machine are able. Grizzly rods can be used on a chambered barrel yes. Range rods are more useful for indicating in the muzzle, where you can't really use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle (thought a regular dial indicator will tell you all you need to know).
faster vs. cheaper... that is the only discussion here, either system will be capable of dialing in a bore to as accurate as yourself or your machine are able. Grizzly rods can be used on a chambered barrel yes. Range rods are more useful for indicating in the muzzle, where you can't really use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle (thought a regular dial indicator will tell you all you need to know).
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">faster vs. cheaper... that is the only discussion here, either system will be capable of dialing in a bore to as accurate as yourself or your machine are able. Grizzly rods can be used on a chambered barrel yes. Range rods are more useful for indicating in the muzzle, where you can't really use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle (thought a regular dial indicator will tell you all you need to know).
</div></div>
why cant you use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle? all you have to do is make some sort of arm to support your indicator dials correct?
and why cant a grizzly rod be used for indicated a muzzle in for threading?
the bushings are the same, so you should get the same inside the bore fit, and a 3 degree taper "should" indicate in just as accuratly as a 1.5 degree taper no? you will end up saving yourself several hundred dollars in rods if you plan on doing many differant calibers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">faster vs. cheaper... that is the only discussion here, either system will be capable of dialing in a bore to as accurate as yourself or your machine are able. Grizzly rods can be used on a chambered barrel yes. Range rods are more useful for indicating in the muzzle, where you can't really use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle (thought a regular dial indicator will tell you all you need to know).
</div></div>
why cant you use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle? all you have to do is make some sort of arm to support your indicator dials correct?
and why cant a grizzly rod be used for indicated a muzzle in for threading?
the bushings are the same, so you should get the same inside the bore fit, and a 3 degree taper "should" indicate in just as accuratly as a 1.5 degree taper no? you will end up saving yourself several hundred dollars in rods if you plan on doing many differant calibers.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
IM going to throw this out there for your guys because i just have too....Here it goes...Why would you need to indicate the other end of the barrel that is sticking out of the Lathe??? Ok all you real Riflesmiths stay out of this>>>>///// LOL
IM going to throw this out there for your guys because i just have too....Here it goes...Why would you need to indicate the other end of the barrel that is sticking out of the Lathe??? Ok all you real Riflesmiths stay out of this>>>>///// LOL
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GLOWWORM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IM going to throw this out there for your guys because i just have too....Here it goes...Why would you need to indicate the other end of the barrel that is sticking out of the Lathe??? Ok all you real Riflesmiths stay out of this>>>>///// LOL </div></div>
one reason is to time the barrel so the high point is pointing up.
my reasoning behind all this madness is if i am going to have to purchase rods for chambering multiple calibers, as well as threading multiple calibler barrels, it only makes sense to use a system that i spend 110 dollars for three rods, and have everything i need for both chambering, cutting a new chamber, and threading barrels. when i get a new caliber in that i dont have the bushings for its a 50 dollar expense.
with the indicator rod system being caliber specific i have to spend 87 dollars per caliber. then if i get an already chambered barrel in ( or short chambered) and i need to indicate it in then i have to buy a 37 dollar grizzly rod for that also.
why not just start out w/ the three grizzly rods, and buy the 50 dollar bushing set per caliber as i need them?
this whole theory goes out the window though, if grizzly rods cannot be used to accuratly dial a bore in for threading.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GLOWWORM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IM going to throw this out there for your guys because i just have too....Here it goes...Why would you need to indicate the other end of the barrel that is sticking out of the Lathe??? Ok all you real Riflesmiths stay out of this>>>>///// LOL </div></div>
one reason is to time the barrel so the high point is pointing up.
my reasoning behind all this madness is if i am going to have to purchase rods for chambering multiple calibers, as well as threading multiple calibler barrels, it only makes sense to use a system that i spend 110 dollars for three rods, and have everything i need for both chambering, cutting a new chamber, and threading barrels. when i get a new caliber in that i dont have the bushings for its a 50 dollar expense.
with the indicator rod system being caliber specific i have to spend 87 dollars per caliber. then if i get an already chambered barrel in ( or short chambered) and i need to indicate it in then i have to buy a 37 dollar grizzly rod for that also.
why not just start out w/ the three grizzly rods, and buy the 50 dollar bushing set per caliber as i need them?
this whole theory goes out the window though, if grizzly rods cannot be used to accuratly dial a bore in for threading.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
For barrel orientation or timing the outside of the barrel can be used....Ok I will answer this as it was before above....The main issue is accuracy???? The grizzley rods work very well. All that matters is the area where the bullet will start its path down the bore. That being said buy a set of the Grizzley rods use them and be happy..Also buy yourself a interapid indicator with a long stylus on it so you can double check everything. The area needs to be running concentric to the throat all the waY to the throat BEFORE YOU PUT YOUR REAMER in the barrel to cut your chamber. You can then time your barrel in whatever way you wish. Barrel bores are not straight, I plan to order the grizzley rods myself...I believ this to be the best method along with a the long stylus indicator for verification.
For barrel orientation or timing the outside of the barrel can be used....Ok I will answer this as it was before above....The main issue is accuracy???? The grizzley rods work very well. All that matters is the area where the bullet will start its path down the bore. That being said buy a set of the Grizzley rods use them and be happy..Also buy yourself a interapid indicator with a long stylus on it so you can double check everything. The area needs to be running concentric to the throat all the waY to the throat BEFORE YOU PUT YOUR REAMER in the barrel to cut your chamber. You can then time your barrel in whatever way you wish. Barrel bores are not straight, I plan to order the grizzley rods myself...I believ this to be the best method along with a the long stylus indicator for verification.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
although i have used and been successful with the tapered range rods and fitted bushings, i have some issues with them. if the end of the bore isn't cut dead nuts to the bore, the range rod will touch one side of the other first, throwing off your reading. the bushing has clearance in the bore and the range rod has clearance in the bushing. not much, but it has to be there. this can also throw off your reading. any imperfections in the range rod's surface finish will be read with your dti. although not a reason i would use to choose one method or the other, the range rods are caliber specific.
the grizzly rod doesn't rely on a taper centering on the bore/end of barrel. if that junction isn't dead nuts, it doesn't matter. the rod is not spinning so the surface finish, or even the straightness doesn't matter. there is still clearance between the bushing and bore and rod and bushing but with a little weight, that doesn't matter, <span style="font-style: italic">provided</span> the bushings were ground dead nuts.
i've only done one barrel with the grizzly rod setup and like it so far.
although i have used and been successful with the tapered range rods and fitted bushings, i have some issues with them. if the end of the bore isn't cut dead nuts to the bore, the range rod will touch one side of the other first, throwing off your reading. the bushing has clearance in the bore and the range rod has clearance in the bushing. not much, but it has to be there. this can also throw off your reading. any imperfections in the range rod's surface finish will be read with your dti. although not a reason i would use to choose one method or the other, the range rods are caliber specific.
the grizzly rod doesn't rely on a taper centering on the bore/end of barrel. if that junction isn't dead nuts, it doesn't matter. the rod is not spinning so the surface finish, or even the straightness doesn't matter. there is still clearance between the bushing and bore and rod and bushing but with a little weight, that doesn't matter, <span style="font-style: italic">provided</span> the bushings were ground dead nuts.
i've only done one barrel with the grizzly rod setup and like it so far.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
why cant you use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle? all you have to do is make some sort of arm to support your indicator dials correct?
and why cant a grizzly rod be used for indicated a muzzle in for threading?
the bushings are the same, so you should get the same inside the bore fit, and a 3 degree taper "should" indicate in just as accuratly as a 1.5 degree taper no? you will end up saving yourself several hundred dollars in rods if you plan on doing many differant calibers.</div></div>
What would hold the other end of the grizzly rod in the muzzle when it is poking out the rear spider? Like I said above, you can use a dial indicator to tell you what you need here, so it is a non-issue, I was just comparing the pros and cons of the range/indicator rod vs the grizzly setup.
The grizzly rod also doesn't have any taper in it at all, at least not intentionally, so you can't really just stuff it in the end of the muzzle like a range/indicator rod and hope for any kind of run out reading.
As to using the grizzly rod system to indicate a barrel's muzzle in for threading, it would work great, just like it does on the chamber end. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was only saying that the grizzly rod isn't useful at the rear of the spindle where the muzzle is sticking out of the spider, this is only to tell you where the bore runout is in relation to the indicated chamber so you can time it as you see fit.
Hope that clears up what I was saying and doesn't muddle things needlessly.
Dave
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
why cant you use a grizzly rod on the rear spindle? all you have to do is make some sort of arm to support your indicator dials correct?
and why cant a grizzly rod be used for indicated a muzzle in for threading?
the bushings are the same, so you should get the same inside the bore fit, and a 3 degree taper "should" indicate in just as accuratly as a 1.5 degree taper no? you will end up saving yourself several hundred dollars in rods if you plan on doing many differant calibers.</div></div>
What would hold the other end of the grizzly rod in the muzzle when it is poking out the rear spider? Like I said above, you can use a dial indicator to tell you what you need here, so it is a non-issue, I was just comparing the pros and cons of the range/indicator rod vs the grizzly setup.
The grizzly rod also doesn't have any taper in it at all, at least not intentionally, so you can't really just stuff it in the end of the muzzle like a range/indicator rod and hope for any kind of run out reading.
As to using the grizzly rod system to indicate a barrel's muzzle in for threading, it would work great, just like it does on the chamber end. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was only saying that the grizzly rod isn't useful at the rear of the spindle where the muzzle is sticking out of the spider, this is only to tell you where the bore runout is in relation to the indicated chamber so you can time it as you see fit.
Hope that clears up what I was saying and doesn't muddle things needlessly.
Dave
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Not having found any actual pictures of these various types or devices...I have 1000 words worth of questions.
I'm trying to get a handle on the geometry of each of these sorts of "indicating" rods.
And to understand how they provide information to allow the chamber to be cut so that the bullet is pointed straight down the bore (at the point where the chambered bullet is) exactly in the center of the chamber.
Also the relationship between the various parts of the rod/bushing and tapered section, where they intersect the bore and any variances they may have and what each have as advantages and disadvantages.
The Indicator rod and Range rod, I (think) I can visualize as supporting the rod between two points. The bushing and where the taper where it intersects the end of the bore.
This represents the bore as an approximation of a straight line between these two points.
One end is supported by the bushing in the bore at whatever point that is, and by the taper intersecting either the end of the bore on an un-chambered barrel the throat on a chambered barrel.
Their limitations would seem to be:
* How perpendicular the bore is to the surface of the end of the barrel.
* How concentric the lands are with the bore (burrs, etc.)
* How concentric the throat or other part of the chamber that intersects the tapered section?
* Clearance between the bushing and the rod.
* Clearance between the bushing and the barrel.
* Concentricity of the bushing and the rod?
* Concentricity of the taper and the rod?
But a "Grizzly" rod supported strictly by one bushing?
If so, then it provides an 'indication' of the bore only at the location of the bushing and over the length of that bushing?
It approximates the bore between the ends of the bushing, a much shorter distance?
Its limitations would seem to be:
* Clearance between the bushing and the rod.
* Clearance between the bushing and the barrel.
* Concentricity of the bushing and the rod?
* The motion of the far end of the rod allowed by these, would be much greater than the motion at the bushing?
Not having found any actual pictures of these various types or devices...I have 1000 words worth of questions.
I'm trying to get a handle on the geometry of each of these sorts of "indicating" rods.
And to understand how they provide information to allow the chamber to be cut so that the bullet is pointed straight down the bore (at the point where the chambered bullet is) exactly in the center of the chamber.
Also the relationship between the various parts of the rod/bushing and tapered section, where they intersect the bore and any variances they may have and what each have as advantages and disadvantages.
The Indicator rod and Range rod, I (think) I can visualize as supporting the rod between two points. The bushing and where the taper where it intersects the end of the bore.
This represents the bore as an approximation of a straight line between these two points.
One end is supported by the bushing in the bore at whatever point that is, and by the taper intersecting either the end of the bore on an un-chambered barrel the throat on a chambered barrel.
Their limitations would seem to be:
* How perpendicular the bore is to the surface of the end of the barrel.
* How concentric the lands are with the bore (burrs, etc.)
* How concentric the throat or other part of the chamber that intersects the tapered section?
* Clearance between the bushing and the rod.
* Clearance between the bushing and the barrel.
* Concentricity of the bushing and the rod?
* Concentricity of the taper and the rod?
But a "Grizzly" rod supported strictly by one bushing?
If so, then it provides an 'indication' of the bore only at the location of the bushing and over the length of that bushing?
It approximates the bore between the ends of the bushing, a much shorter distance?
Its limitations would seem to be:
* Clearance between the bushing and the rod.
* Clearance between the bushing and the barrel.
* Concentricity of the bushing and the rod?
* The motion of the far end of the rod allowed by these, would be much greater than the motion at the bushing?
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Housel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">:snip:
But a "Grizzly" rod supported strictly by one bushing?
If so, then it provides an 'indication' of the bore only at the location of the bushing and over the length of that bushing?
It approximates the bore between the ends of the bushing, a much shorter distance?
Its limitations would seem to be:
* Clearance between the bushing and the rod.
* Clearance between the bushing and the barrel.
* Concentricity of the bushing and the rod?
* The motion of the far end of the rod allowed by these, would be much greater than the motion at the bushing?
</div></div>
since the rod is supported by your tailstock or tool holder on the carriage, the other end is supported. you are not using it like a gauge pin. the clearance between the bore/bushing/rod can be made negligible with a small weight hung off the rod to keep the all the clearances at the top of the rod at all times. you are still at the mercy of how well the bushings are made though. using your tailstock or carriage to move the busing in the bore, you can pick and choose exactly what section of the bore you want to get your reading off of.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Housel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">:snip:
But a "Grizzly" rod supported strictly by one bushing?
If so, then it provides an 'indication' of the bore only at the location of the bushing and over the length of that bushing?
It approximates the bore between the ends of the bushing, a much shorter distance?
Its limitations would seem to be:
* Clearance between the bushing and the rod.
* Clearance between the bushing and the barrel.
* Concentricity of the bushing and the rod?
* The motion of the far end of the rod allowed by these, would be much greater than the motion at the bushing?
</div></div>
since the rod is supported by your tailstock or tool holder on the carriage, the other end is supported. you are not using it like a gauge pin. the clearance between the bore/bushing/rod can be made negligible with a small weight hung off the rod to keep the all the clearances at the top of the rod at all times. you are still at the mercy of how well the bushings are made though. using your tailstock or carriage to move the busing in the bore, you can pick and choose exactly what section of the bore you want to get your reading off of.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Just indicate the throat in to dead nuts with the proper indicator and pre-bore concentric with that point and chamber.
You really don't need rods for anything but getting you close to start with. Glorified pin gages is what they are.
Just indicate the throat in to dead nuts with the proper indicator and pre-bore concentric with that point and chamber.
You really don't need rods for anything but getting you close to start with. Glorified pin gages is what they are.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Thanks,
Never having seen an actual picture of these, or in use I didn't know that it was supported by the tail stock.
Makes more sense now. And as to why these wouldn't work out the back of the lathe.
Thanks,
Never having seen an actual picture of these, or in use I didn't know that it was supported by the tail stock.
Makes more sense now. And as to why these wouldn't work out the back of the lathe.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddief</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just indicate the throat in to dead nuts with the proper indicator </div></div>
isnt that what this thread is about? which is a more proper indicator? Such a simple post that doesnt really help the issue we are talking about.
i dont mean to come off sounding rude, but some of us are trying our hardests to learn, and comments like that just make it even harder. could you please elaborate what "the proper indicator" is? Do you prefer the range rod or the grizz rod?
I have another question for the masses here. If the grizz rod works good because its supported on the end, can you not use a range rod in the same manner?
and why arent the standard "pin guages" being discussed here?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddief</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just indicate the throat in to dead nuts with the proper indicator </div></div>
isnt that what this thread is about? which is a more proper indicator? Such a simple post that doesnt really help the issue we are talking about.
i dont mean to come off sounding rude, but some of us are trying our hardests to learn, and comments like that just make it even harder. could you please elaborate what "the proper indicator" is? Do you prefer the range rod or the grizz rod?
I have another question for the masses here. If the grizz rod works good because its supported on the end, can you not use a range rod in the same manner?
and why arent the standard "pin guages" being discussed here?
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
I would suggest buying the DVD by Grizzley on Gordy Gritters chambering a barrel. This will help you in you process. He actually talks about methods and uses the rods during the video...YOU may even be able to see them used on Youtube i do beleive there is a clip from the vidio on there...Just type in Gordy gritters or chambering.
I would suggest buying the DVD by Grizzley on Gordy Gritters chambering a barrel. This will help you in you process. He actually talks about methods and uses the rods during the video...YOU may even be able to see them used on Youtube i do beleive there is a clip from the vidio on there...Just type in Gordy gritters or chambering.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have another question for the masses here. If the grizz rod works good because its supported on the end, can you not use a range rod in the same manner?
</div></div>
I suppose you could use a range rod similar to a grizzly rod, but you would be limited in your travel and the length of the range rod won't give much room to work between the tail stock and the chuck when you have the range rod chucked up in the tail stock. My only question would be why? If you like the technique employed by the grizzly rods, it wouldn't make much sense to invest in range rods when 1 grizzly rod can do the job of several range rods.
Dave
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have another question for the masses here. If the grizz rod works good because its supported on the end, can you not use a range rod in the same manner?
</div></div>
I suppose you could use a range rod similar to a grizzly rod, but you would be limited in your travel and the length of the range rod won't give much room to work between the tail stock and the chuck when you have the range rod chucked up in the tail stock. My only question would be why? If you like the technique employed by the grizzly rods, it wouldn't make much sense to invest in range rods when 1 grizzly rod can do the job of several range rods.
Dave
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
every good machine shop should have a selection of gauge pins. hard to argue with a standard.
every good machine shop should have a selection of gauge pins. hard to argue with a standard.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
How about two long feeler dial test indicators set in the bore at the throat and then forward a few inches of that....if the bore diameter allows both indicators to function. or perhaps locate the second just inside the breach end of the blank, say 1/2 in., this would indicate the whole length of the throat and chamber area. ...getting too complicated? Only reason I ask this is...Someone mentioned a long feeler and someone else mention indicating the throat area only<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">..."Save yourself some money. Indicate the bore where the bullet enters the throat, single point bore an ID feature concentric with that point, chamber, and move on with your life."</span></span>
The throat area only? would that be as accurate as two points?
If that works, Screw the rods all together. I have the long feelers already.
How about two long feeler dial test indicators set in the bore at the throat and then forward a few inches of that....if the bore diameter allows both indicators to function. or perhaps locate the second just inside the breach end of the blank, say 1/2 in., this would indicate the whole length of the throat and chamber area. ...getting too complicated? Only reason I ask this is...Someone mentioned a long feeler and someone else mention indicating the throat area only<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">..."Save yourself some money. Indicate the bore where the bullet enters the throat, single point bore an ID feature concentric with that point, chamber, and move on with your life."</span></span>
The throat area only? would that be as accurate as two points?
If that works, Screw the rods all together. I have the long feelers already.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
This really seems to be spinning out of control LOL. There are many methods of doing essentially the same thing. Range rods and grizzly rods are two approaches to the same method, they make sure the first 2" or so of the bore is running concentric to the lathe's spindle, so when you pre-bore, or run a piloted reamer in the whole way, the initial contact point of the bullet to the bore is going to be engraved concentricly (sp?) allowing the bullet to have the best flight after following the rifling down the bore.
Another way to accomplish this, is to just indicate the bore at the throat, and of course you make sure the rest is close, but it doesn't need to be dead nuts, because instead of running a reamer in first, you would single point bore the barrel making the start of the chamber concentric to the throat where it was indicated in. At that point, you then run the reamer in, and voila, you have a chamber concentric around the throat just like with the range rods and indicator rods.
As mentioned above, watch Gordy Gritters video, he does a great job of explaining the use of the grizzly rods, and from that you can get a good idea of how the other methods work to accomplish essentially the same exact thing.
This really seems to be spinning out of control LOL. There are many methods of doing essentially the same thing. Range rods and grizzly rods are two approaches to the same method, they make sure the first 2" or so of the bore is running concentric to the lathe's spindle, so when you pre-bore, or run a piloted reamer in the whole way, the initial contact point of the bullet to the bore is going to be engraved concentricly (sp?) allowing the bullet to have the best flight after following the rifling down the bore.
Another way to accomplish this, is to just indicate the bore at the throat, and of course you make sure the rest is close, but it doesn't need to be dead nuts, because instead of running a reamer in first, you would single point bore the barrel making the start of the chamber concentric to the throat where it was indicated in. At that point, you then run the reamer in, and voila, you have a chamber concentric around the throat just like with the range rods and indicator rods.
As mentioned above, watch Gordy Gritters video, he does a great job of explaining the use of the grizzly rods, and from that you can get a good idea of how the other methods work to accomplish essentially the same exact thing.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This really seems to be spinning out of control LOL. </div></div>
My thoughts bezackly! lol.
The idea of "long feeler" dial test indicators in the throat and chamber area sounds best to me. I seems to keep any unseen inconsistencies of rods and bushings out of play.
See..... asking questions does help us morons learn.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This really seems to be spinning out of control LOL. </div></div>
My thoughts bezackly! lol.
The idea of "long feeler" dial test indicators in the throat and chamber area sounds best to me. I seems to keep any unseen inconsistencies of rods and bushings out of play.
See..... asking questions does help us morons learn.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
informative stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheViper6506#p/a/u/2/ErVOUVszFjY
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheViper6506#p/a/u/1/1d989VrW_70
informative stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheViper6506#p/a/u/2/ErVOUVszFjY
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheViper6506#p/a/u/1/1d989VrW_70
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This really seems to be spinning out of control LOL. </div></div>
My thoughts bezackly! lol.
The idea of "long feeler" dial test indicators in the throat and chamber area sounds best to me. I seems to keep any unseen inconsistencies of rods and bushings out of play.
See..... asking questions does help us morons learn. </div></div>
I don't think just a long indicator would work too well since we are not dealing with a round bore to begin with. There are lands and grooves in there. The bushings help to give a "round" feature to the inside of the bore. Once you grasp the grizzly rod method, it seems to be the best option. It took me a while to wrap my head around it all. I bugged just about ever smith on here. Actually, still bugging them.
The first time I saw a plum hanging off the rod, I think it was some of Chad's pics, WTF came to mind. Especially when you consider the equipment that weight and string were hanging. I get it now. I have the grizzly rods on order along with a few bushings. I have used the indicator rod before but like Sniper300 pointed out, if the end of the barrel isn't perpendicular to the bore (which you are in the process to align), then your measurements will be off. Not by much, but math is math.
Mike
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This really seems to be spinning out of control LOL. </div></div>
My thoughts bezackly! lol.
The idea of "long feeler" dial test indicators in the throat and chamber area sounds best to me. I seems to keep any unseen inconsistencies of rods and bushings out of play.
See..... asking questions does help us morons learn. </div></div>
I don't think just a long indicator would work too well since we are not dealing with a round bore to begin with. There are lands and grooves in there. The bushings help to give a "round" feature to the inside of the bore. Once you grasp the grizzly rod method, it seems to be the best option. It took me a while to wrap my head around it all. I bugged just about ever smith on here. Actually, still bugging them.
The first time I saw a plum hanging off the rod, I think it was some of Chad's pics, WTF came to mind. Especially when you consider the equipment that weight and string were hanging. I get it now. I have the grizzly rods on order along with a few bushings. I have used the indicator rod before but like Sniper300 pointed out, if the end of the barrel isn't perpendicular to the bore (which you are in the process to align), then your measurements will be off. Not by much, but math is math.
Mike
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Sure the lands and groves will cause a bump in the road but I read some where here that the "Cut" groves are more precise anyway? Is that fact or just "'smith myth"? and would it be worth the hassel? but then again we're only talking about @4 thou. in a .308 when the high and low spots are a much smaller surface area than the width of the groove would be.
Just thinking here.lol
Sure the lands and groves will cause a bump in the road but I read some where here that the "Cut" groves are more precise anyway? Is that fact or just "'smith myth"? and would it be worth the hassel? but then again we're only talking about @4 thou. in a .308 when the high and low spots are a much smaller surface area than the width of the groove would be.
Just thinking here.lol
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddief</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just indicate the throat in to dead nuts with the proper indicator </div></div>
isnt that what this thread is about? which is a more proper indicator? Such a simple post that doesnt really help the issue we are talking about.
i dont mean to come off sounding rude, but some of us are trying our hardests to learn, and comments like that just make it even harder. could you please elaborate what "the proper indicator" is? Do you prefer the range rod or the grizz rod?
I have another question for the masses here. If the grizz rod works good because its supported on the end, can you not use a range rod in the same manner?
and why arent the standard "pin guages" being discussed here?</div></div>
I think the reference here is using a dial test indicator that will reach up into the bore to the point where the throat will be. The "proper" part refers to an indicator that has a long enough stylus to reach where the throat will be or like the Mitutoyo that has a cylindrical portion that is small enough to fit into predrilled chamber and reach the where the throat will be. Once the indicator is in the bore you read directly of the lands or grooves. It is pretty straight forward
Pin gauges could be used to get you close but sets are usually in .001" increments so getting a good fitting pin would be hit or miss. Pins are available in other increments such as .0001" but if you were trying to indicate where the throat will be Im not sure that the pins are the best way to go
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddief</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just indicate the throat in to dead nuts with the proper indicator </div></div>
isnt that what this thread is about? which is a more proper indicator? Such a simple post that doesnt really help the issue we are talking about.
i dont mean to come off sounding rude, but some of us are trying our hardests to learn, and comments like that just make it even harder. could you please elaborate what "the proper indicator" is? Do you prefer the range rod or the grizz rod?
I have another question for the masses here. If the grizz rod works good because its supported on the end, can you not use a range rod in the same manner?
and why arent the standard "pin guages" being discussed here?</div></div>
I think the reference here is using a dial test indicator that will reach up into the bore to the point where the throat will be. The "proper" part refers to an indicator that has a long enough stylus to reach where the throat will be or like the Mitutoyo that has a cylindrical portion that is small enough to fit into predrilled chamber and reach the where the throat will be. Once the indicator is in the bore you read directly of the lands or grooves. It is pretty straight forward
Pin gauges could be used to get you close but sets are usually in .001" increments so getting a good fitting pin would be hit or miss. Pins are available in other increments such as .0001" but if you were trying to indicate where the throat will be Im not sure that the pins are the best way to go
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
+1 to what chad, tooley and eddief say.
I use a range rod to get close then go in with a long armed intrepid. All I really worry about is the area where the throat will end up. I really do not care what the end of the barrel from the throat back does, because it is going to be gone when I get through drilling and pre boring for the chamber.
+1 to what chad, tooley and eddief say.
I use a range rod to get close then go in with a long armed intrepid. All I really worry about is the area where the throat will end up. I really do not care what the end of the barrel from the throat back does, because it is going to be gone when I get through drilling and pre boring for the chamber.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
the problem i see with indicating ONLY at the throat is all you know is that there is limited runout at that one spot. it doesn't tell you if the bullet is entering the bore at a tangent or secant angle.
the problem i see with indicating ONLY at the throat is all you know is that there is limited runout at that one spot. it doesn't tell you if the bullet is entering the bore at a tangent or secant angle.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Garrett read this thread yesterday and decided to conduct an experiment. I made my own tooling for this process prior to opening up shop in 2010. It's essentially a lever with a "spud" on the end of it. Each spud is sized to each caliber and is removable. Nothing rotates or spins inside the bore. It simply rides up/down with the bore and illustrates the TIR.
He set it up using the shop method. Then he went in with an indicator to double check. the differences were basically undetectable with a .00005" resolution B/S indicator.
The key to success as I've discovered is using a single point boring bar to buzz the hole prior to chambering. This ensures everything is running on a common center point right up to the throat. My boring bar is good for about 1.25" reach. So it's not making it to the throat on anything longer than itty bitty stuff.
What's the fundamental rule about drilling/reaming a hole? You should have a pilot hole at least 2.5x the tools diameter in order to ensure the tool runs on center. The biggest OD cartridge we chamber right now is the 300/378 WBY Magnum. The shoulder measures around .56" With 1.25" of reach I have over 4x the diameter supported when that tool enters virgin bore ahead of the prebored hole. In other words I'm following fundamental machining practices because they WORK.
The barrel can essentially do whatever it wants (within reason) between the throat and the endpoint of the bored hole. The reamer isn't going to care. It'll just keep right on trucking. So well in fact that anymore we DONT even bother with the floating pilots! YES, I said it! Make your reamer holder correctly and bore your hole correctly and YOU DONT NEED THEM. You'll soon discover that your muzzle flush system flows a hell of a lot more fluid when you ditch it.
Chip evacuation is another machining fundemental. So much so that tooling vendors (including our good friend Mr. Kiff) devote much time and effort into refining how the tool gets the crap out of the way so that it doesn't make a mess of things. In a hole being reamed its a unique challenge because the deeper you go the worse it gets. Fluid exchange becomes very important.
Pins, rods, and other witchcraft: (it is almost Holloween)
Shoving hardened steel pins into a rifle bore has never agreed with me. We commonly hear things like tolerance stacking, etc on this forum. Just how round is the pin? Within a couple tenths? Is it round for its entire diameter? Ever turn something long/skinny? Not easy to do. How straight is the pin? Within half a tenth? A quarter of a tenth? What happens if its out a quarter 10th in the middle? How much is it out when 3" is sticking out past the barrel?
Anyone ever put one on a bench center and check it? Anyone here even own a bench center?
Now add in your bushings etc? How round/concentric is the bushing? Does it have tangent/concentric contact with the bore or is it slightly cockeyed in there? How do you know?
Now cram it up the arse of the barrel. Is it a slip fit? Is it a press fit? What did it do to the bore? Would anyone here shove a hardened cleaning rod down there barrel? Take it out and stick it in again. Does it repeat? Is it repeating what's there or are you merely repeating the tolerance stack between a bore, a slip fit (it's gotta have some room otherwise it won't go in the hole and won't come out of the hole) the TIR of out of roundness of the rod and the TIR induced by how straight (not straight) it is.
If you had a 27" rod like this and could shove it all the way through the barrel would it be a better way? How do you know the curve in the barrel didn't bend the rod? How do you know the rod isn't bending the barrel? (that's funny!)
If you really want to split hairs. Make the gimbled/spud rod setup I talked about earlier. Stuff it at the throat and indicate. Then move back to about 1" ahead of the breech (gotta factor in/stay away from the lapped bore and bellmouthed hole entrance) and repeat.
If you start around 9am I speculate you should have your barrel indicated by around 2pm. You'll have your "perfect" setup. The gods will part the clouds and touch your shoulder, forever blessing you with divine power.
Cram your reamer in there holding it however you choose to do it. I like vice grips.
Now go shoot it and compare it to every other group ever posted on a forum.
What'd you get?
You got a barrel that shoots just as well as everyone else. Only difference is you burned up 2/3rds of a day doing it.
This stuff isn't hard. There's no voodoo, there's no Ouija boards. (although I do have one here just in case )
I realize its not sexy or cool, but if folks devoted 10% of the time to learning how to cut REALLY nice threads as they do fretting over how to set up a barrel you might just be surprised how well a rifle can be made to shoot. ALL of the energy the cartridge develops passes through the threaded joint. It would seem to me the more contact/strength/surface area the better.
Not sexy, not cool, and certainly not cheap learning how to buzz a wrinkle on a barrel at 1000+ rpm when running a manual (this is where carbide really wants to run so that it can deliver the surface finish its really capable of)
Devote some time sorting out how to ditch the spider chucks using a 1/2 bolt to clamp onto a tennon/muzzle. Surface contact mitigates chatter folks. Any machinist worth his salt quickly learns that the more he can grab onto, the better his chances of getting a nice surface finish.
But it is a trade "secret."
My coffee's cold now and I have to get to work.
Have a great Thursday germs.
C.
Garrett read this thread yesterday and decided to conduct an experiment. I made my own tooling for this process prior to opening up shop in 2010. It's essentially a lever with a "spud" on the end of it. Each spud is sized to each caliber and is removable. Nothing rotates or spins inside the bore. It simply rides up/down with the bore and illustrates the TIR.
He set it up using the shop method. Then he went in with an indicator to double check. the differences were basically undetectable with a .00005" resolution B/S indicator.
The key to success as I've discovered is using a single point boring bar to buzz the hole prior to chambering. This ensures everything is running on a common center point right up to the throat. My boring bar is good for about 1.25" reach. So it's not making it to the throat on anything longer than itty bitty stuff.
What's the fundamental rule about drilling/reaming a hole? You should have a pilot hole at least 2.5x the tools diameter in order to ensure the tool runs on center. The biggest OD cartridge we chamber right now is the 300/378 WBY Magnum. The shoulder measures around .56" With 1.25" of reach I have over 4x the diameter supported when that tool enters virgin bore ahead of the prebored hole. In other words I'm following fundamental machining practices because they WORK.
The barrel can essentially do whatever it wants (within reason) between the throat and the endpoint of the bored hole. The reamer isn't going to care. It'll just keep right on trucking. So well in fact that anymore we DONT even bother with the floating pilots! YES, I said it! Make your reamer holder correctly and bore your hole correctly and YOU DONT NEED THEM. You'll soon discover that your muzzle flush system flows a hell of a lot more fluid when you ditch it.
Chip evacuation is another machining fundemental. So much so that tooling vendors (including our good friend Mr. Kiff) devote much time and effort into refining how the tool gets the crap out of the way so that it doesn't make a mess of things. In a hole being reamed its a unique challenge because the deeper you go the worse it gets. Fluid exchange becomes very important.
Pins, rods, and other witchcraft: (it is almost Holloween)
Shoving hardened steel pins into a rifle bore has never agreed with me. We commonly hear things like tolerance stacking, etc on this forum. Just how round is the pin? Within a couple tenths? Is it round for its entire diameter? Ever turn something long/skinny? Not easy to do. How straight is the pin? Within half a tenth? A quarter of a tenth? What happens if its out a quarter 10th in the middle? How much is it out when 3" is sticking out past the barrel?
Anyone ever put one on a bench center and check it? Anyone here even own a bench center?
Now add in your bushings etc? How round/concentric is the bushing? Does it have tangent/concentric contact with the bore or is it slightly cockeyed in there? How do you know?
Now cram it up the arse of the barrel. Is it a slip fit? Is it a press fit? What did it do to the bore? Would anyone here shove a hardened cleaning rod down there barrel? Take it out and stick it in again. Does it repeat? Is it repeating what's there or are you merely repeating the tolerance stack between a bore, a slip fit (it's gotta have some room otherwise it won't go in the hole and won't come out of the hole) the TIR of out of roundness of the rod and the TIR induced by how straight (not straight) it is.
If you had a 27" rod like this and could shove it all the way through the barrel would it be a better way? How do you know the curve in the barrel didn't bend the rod? How do you know the rod isn't bending the barrel? (that's funny!)
If you really want to split hairs. Make the gimbled/spud rod setup I talked about earlier. Stuff it at the throat and indicate. Then move back to about 1" ahead of the breech (gotta factor in/stay away from the lapped bore and bellmouthed hole entrance) and repeat.
If you start around 9am I speculate you should have your barrel indicated by around 2pm. You'll have your "perfect" setup. The gods will part the clouds and touch your shoulder, forever blessing you with divine power.
Cram your reamer in there holding it however you choose to do it. I like vice grips.
Now go shoot it and compare it to every other group ever posted on a forum.
What'd you get?
You got a barrel that shoots just as well as everyone else. Only difference is you burned up 2/3rds of a day doing it.
This stuff isn't hard. There's no voodoo, there's no Ouija boards. (although I do have one here just in case
I realize its not sexy or cool, but if folks devoted 10% of the time to learning how to cut REALLY nice threads as they do fretting over how to set up a barrel you might just be surprised how well a rifle can be made to shoot. ALL of the energy the cartridge develops passes through the threaded joint. It would seem to me the more contact/strength/surface area the better.
Not sexy, not cool, and certainly not cheap learning how to buzz a wrinkle on a barrel at 1000+ rpm when running a manual (this is where carbide really wants to run so that it can deliver the surface finish its really capable of)
Devote some time sorting out how to ditch the spider chucks using a 1/2 bolt to clamp onto a tennon/muzzle. Surface contact mitigates chatter folks. Any machinist worth his salt quickly learns that the more he can grab onto, the better his chances of getting a nice surface finish.
But it is a trade "secret."
My coffee's cold now and I have to get to work.
Have a great Thursday germs.
C.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I realize its not sexy or cool, but if folks devoted 10% of the time to learning how to cut REALLY nice threads as they do fretting over how to set up a barrel you might just be surprised how well a rifle can be made to shoot. ALL of the energy the cartridge develops passes through the threaded joint. It would seem to me the more contact/strength/surface area the better.
Not sexy, not cool, and certainly not cheap learning how to buzz a wrinkle on a barrel at 1000+ rpm when running a manual (this is where carbide really wants to run so that it can deliver the surface finish its really capable of)
</div></div>
Mwuahahaha.... manual machine, single point threading at 1000rpm!
I know I've done it, and it makes NICE NICE NICE threads. I even have a tool setup to do it so that there's no risk of chuck crashing.
I mentioned it to a couple of gunsmiths and they looked at me like I was flat out nuts or I was lying.
I've never really worried about it, considering how my rifles have been consistently shooting; but without naming names, the vindication is sweet.
Rock on, Chad. I don't use indicating rods either, I ditched it after using 1 for the first time and found it frustrating. There are better ways IMO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I realize its not sexy or cool, but if folks devoted 10% of the time to learning how to cut REALLY nice threads as they do fretting over how to set up a barrel you might just be surprised how well a rifle can be made to shoot. ALL of the energy the cartridge develops passes through the threaded joint. It would seem to me the more contact/strength/surface area the better.
Not sexy, not cool, and certainly not cheap learning how to buzz a wrinkle on a barrel at 1000+ rpm when running a manual (this is where carbide really wants to run so that it can deliver the surface finish its really capable of)
</div></div>
Mwuahahaha.... manual machine, single point threading at 1000rpm!
I know I've done it, and it makes NICE NICE NICE threads. I even have a tool setup to do it so that there's no risk of chuck crashing.
I mentioned it to a couple of gunsmiths and they looked at me like I was flat out nuts or I was lying.
I've never really worried about it, considering how my rifles have been consistently shooting; but without naming names, the vindication is sweet.
Rock on, Chad. I don't use indicating rods either, I ditched it after using 1 for the first time and found it frustrating. There are better ways IMO.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I realize its not sexy or cool, but if folks devoted 10% of the time to learning how to cut REALLY nice threads as they do fretting over how to set up a barrel you might just be surprised how well a rifle can be made to shoot. ALL of the energy the cartridge develops passes through the threaded joint. It would seem to me the more contact/strength/surface area the better.
Not sexy, not cool, and certainly not cheap learning how to buzz a wrinkle on a barrel at 1000+ rpm when running a manual (this is where carbide really wants to run so that it can deliver the surface finish its really capable of)
</div></div>
Mwuahahaha.... manual machine, single point threading at 1000rpm!
I know I've done it, and it makes NICE NICE NICE threads. I even have a tool setup to do it so that there's no risk of chuck crashing.
I mentioned it to a couple of gunsmiths and they looked at me like I was flat out nuts or I was lying.
I've never really worried about it, considering how my rifles have been consistently shooting; but without naming names, the vindication is sweet.
Rock on, Chad. I don't use indicating rods either, I ditched it after using 1 for the first time and found it frustrating. There are better ways IMO. </div></div>
Don't be shy! Please show us your method on how you cut threads on a manual lathe @ 1000 rpm. I'm dying to know. I've only been able to accomplish that feat on a hardinge style lathe.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I realize its not sexy or cool, but if folks devoted 10% of the time to learning how to cut REALLY nice threads as they do fretting over how to set up a barrel you might just be surprised how well a rifle can be made to shoot. ALL of the energy the cartridge develops passes through the threaded joint. It would seem to me the more contact/strength/surface area the better.
Not sexy, not cool, and certainly not cheap learning how to buzz a wrinkle on a barrel at 1000+ rpm when running a manual (this is where carbide really wants to run so that it can deliver the surface finish its really capable of)
</div></div>
Mwuahahaha.... manual machine, single point threading at 1000rpm!
I know I've done it, and it makes NICE NICE NICE threads. I even have a tool setup to do it so that there's no risk of chuck crashing.
I mentioned it to a couple of gunsmiths and they looked at me like I was flat out nuts or I was lying.
I've never really worried about it, considering how my rifles have been consistently shooting; but without naming names, the vindication is sweet.
Rock on, Chad. I don't use indicating rods either, I ditched it after using 1 for the first time and found it frustrating. There are better ways IMO. </div></div>
Don't be shy! Please show us your method on how you cut threads on a manual lathe @ 1000 rpm. I'm dying to know. I've only been able to accomplish that feat on a hardinge style lathe.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
That was a good post, Chad, and I'm with you 99%.
The key is to get the bullet to engrave into the rifling true. Anything else the barrel does downstream in not relevant. It is what it is.
It's interesting you mention the cylindricity of gage pins though, because I have experience with this, having been in production shops manufacturing hydraulic valve lifters, which are OD centerless ground. A quality machine being run by a quality jobsetter can create cylinders better than .000015 (15 millionths).
I've also been involved in getting ISO certified, and done a lot of inspection to get there. Even "CHINA" brand gage pins have less than .0001 taper and roundness. Also, every shop I've worked in has a bench center! LOL
Anyway, great post and thanks for sharing your experience with us. Seems like you're preaching the three golden rules to proper machining:
1. ridgidity
2. Ridgidity
3. RIDGIDITY!!!
That was a good post, Chad, and I'm with you 99%.
The key is to get the bullet to engrave into the rifling true. Anything else the barrel does downstream in not relevant. It is what it is.
It's interesting you mention the cylindricity of gage pins though, because I have experience with this, having been in production shops manufacturing hydraulic valve lifters, which are OD centerless ground. A quality machine being run by a quality jobsetter can create cylinders better than .000015 (15 millionths).
I've also been involved in getting ISO certified, and done a lot of inspection to get there. Even "CHINA" brand gage pins have less than .0001 taper and roundness. Also, every shop I've worked in has a bench center! LOL
Anyway, great post and thanks for sharing your experience with us. Seems like you're preaching the three golden rules to proper machining:
1. ridgidity
2. Ridgidity
3. RIDGIDITY!!!
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Animal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't be shy! Please show us your method on how you cut threads on a manual lathe @ 1000 rpm.</div></div>
I think he uses CNC; that's his point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Animal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't be shy! Please show us your method on how you cut threads on a manual lathe @ 1000 rpm.</div></div>
I think he uses CNC; that's his point.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
He said a "manual lathe". Anybody can do that on a cnc! Short of a hardinge style lathe or a cnc to automatically kick out your threading tool...I'd like to see it.
Being an optimist and giving someone the benefit of the doubt, I'd like to see it.
It's kind of like the Birth Certificate issue. Show it and I'll believe you!
He said a "manual lathe". Anybody can do that on a cnc! Short of a hardinge style lathe or a cnc to automatically kick out your threading tool...I'd like to see it.
Being an optimist and giving someone the benefit of the doubt, I'd like to see it.
It's kind of like the Birth Certificate issue. Show it and I'll believe you!
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
OK. Which is the way to go for indicating a barrel. It seams the "grizzly" rods would be more versatile but perhaps the Indicator/Range rods would be more accurate. What do you experts suggest?
Thanks
OK. Which is the way to go for indicating a barrel. It seams the "grizzly" rods would be more versatile but perhaps the Indicator/Range rods would be more accurate. What do you experts suggest?
Thanks
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody can do that on a cnc! </div></div>
THAT is funny.
%
(REM700 TENNON THREADING CYCLE)
T0202(OD THREADER)
M05S3500
G96S600
G55S4500
G0X1.0Z.01
G90X1.055Z-.95R.1F.0625M09
X1.05
X1.04
X1.03
X1.02
X1.01
X1.0
X.992
G0X5.0Z5.0M08
M99
%
Tell us the 10 fundamental problems with this threading program. Pretty basic stuff that'd have any shop owner kicking your arse right out the door if he caught you writing code like this.
For the moment we'll ignore/pretend we don't care about thread fits. (cause if you actually tried to use this the last thing you'd be worried about is a thread fit after the first pass)
As to threading on a manual at 1Krpm. Yes, you can do it and no it does not have to be on a Hardinge. Spend a weekend with some 1.25" bar stock doing nothing but machining practice tennons. Start your tool an inch or so in front of the tennon. Don't be concerned with getting to the shoulder just yet. That'll come later. Mark a line on the cylinder well in front of it for a safety margin.
Start with a cadence in your head to time the pull out. Use the palm of your hand to rotate the cross slide instead of grabbing the handle with fingers. If the handle is at 12/6 o clock its too easy to rock it the wrong way on the downward/upward "push/pull" and you can accidently cram the tool right into the tennon.
Make sure your brake works on your lathe. Engage the nut, start your cadence, pull out, disengage, and hit the brake in one fluid movement.
If the blind guy running a lathe at Western Forge in Colorado Springs, CO can do it anyone here should be able to. (no chit, he really is/was blind!)
Practice, practice, practice. About the time you get sick of making tennons is the time your starting to get good at it.
C.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody can do that on a cnc! </div></div>
THAT is funny.
%
(REM700 TENNON THREADING CYCLE)
T0202(OD THREADER)
M05S3500
G96S600
G55S4500
G0X1.0Z.01
G90X1.055Z-.95R.1F.0625M09
X1.05
X1.04
X1.03
X1.02
X1.01
X1.0
X.992
G0X5.0Z5.0M08
M99
%
Tell us the 10 fundamental problems with this threading program. Pretty basic stuff that'd have any shop owner kicking your arse right out the door if he caught you writing code like this.
For the moment we'll ignore/pretend we don't care about thread fits. (cause if you actually tried to use this the last thing you'd be worried about is a thread fit after the first pass)
As to threading on a manual at 1Krpm. Yes, you can do it and no it does not have to be on a Hardinge. Spend a weekend with some 1.25" bar stock doing nothing but machining practice tennons. Start your tool an inch or so in front of the tennon. Don't be concerned with getting to the shoulder just yet. That'll come later. Mark a line on the cylinder well in front of it for a safety margin.
Start with a cadence in your head to time the pull out. Use the palm of your hand to rotate the cross slide instead of grabbing the handle with fingers. If the handle is at 12/6 o clock its too easy to rock it the wrong way on the downward/upward "push/pull" and you can accidently cram the tool right into the tennon.
Make sure your brake works on your lathe. Engage the nut, start your cadence, pull out, disengage, and hit the brake in one fluid movement.
If the blind guy running a lathe at Western Forge in Colorado Springs, CO can do it anyone here should be able to. (no chit, he really is/was blind!)
Practice, practice, practice. About the time you get sick of making tennons is the time your starting to get good at it.
C.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
I'm learning so here's my thoughts on it,
1. No spaces make it a difficult read and to troubleshoot.
2. M08 is coolant on, that should be at the start, M09 should be at the end.
All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.
How'd I do Chad?
Mike
I'm learning so here's my thoughts on it,
1. No spaces make it a difficult read and to troubleshoot.
2. M08 is coolant on, that should be at the start, M09 should be at the end.
All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.
How'd I do Chad?
Mike
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1k3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm learning so here's my thoughts on it,
1. No spaces make it a difficult read and to troubleshoot.
2. M08 is coolant on, that should be at the start, M09 should be at the end.
All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.
How'd I do Chad?
Mike </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.</div></div>
Actually only certain things become proprietary. The movements G1, G2, G3, stuff is pretty standard. Cutter comp and tool height stuff is too. G40, 41, 42, 43, etc (43 is more for mills I guess)
The M codes (modal codes) get a little weird sometimes. Things like the spindle lock ignore/activate, parts catchers, bar feeders, etc. Those often change, but the basic on/off, movement, spindle, coolant functions stay the same.
%
(REM700 TENNON THREADING CYCLE)
#1 No safety line present-dangerous!
Should have: G54 (work offset) G80 (canned cycle cancel) G97 (kill the constant surface speed) G99 (feed in IPR)
T0202(OD THREADER)
#2 M05S3500 (M05 shuts the spindle off, you goin nowhere fast) S3500 means your trying to thread a 1.0625 OD thread at 3500 rpm. It'll never happen. The turret can't move fast enough to keep up.
#3 Also your surface speed is too much for the carbide with this type of material (barrel steels) You'd need to slow it down to around 1500rpm.
#4 G96S600 (G96 is constant surface speed on, can't use this with a threading cycle. Each depth of cut increase also increases the spindle RPM, this would result in a feed rate change for every pass made. Can't do that on a threading cycle as the encoders won't process the new feedrate. Most machines will just ignore this if you forget to give it a G97, some won't. The S600 means 600 feet of surface per minute. Meaning the tool will travel 600ft/mn regardless of whether its at the center of the part or at the very edge. (think merry go round)
#5 G55S4500 (G55 is a spindle RPM lock when using CSS. Meaning it won't exceed the rpm level in the S4500 portion no matter how bad it wants to with the depth of cut increase. Typically don't exceed the mean spindle rpm (m05/M03 callout earlier) Using CSS is cool but it can also be hard on shit as the spindle is always accelerating/slowing down depending on where the tool is in X. Use for finish passes only in most cases is the best bet. You also have to be careful with it as you can exceed RPM and hurt stuff. (mostly yourself) If your using a big ass chuck for instance you could exceed its safe RPM rating. As the tool moves the center the spindle increases RPM in the attempt to keep the SFM at the tool equal across the face (diameter) of the part.
#6 G0X1.0Z.01 (This is the first real "whammy" of the program. Your line of code here is the <span style="font-weight: bold">start/retract </span>position. The G0 is a rapid so you better be on the spot with this as most modern CNC's are using 1000+ipm rapid rates. Things can go to hell in a hurry. If were cutting 1.055 OD threads we need to stay above this. The X value here should be 1.1" or something like that. Anything over 1.055 is good. In this case the tool would rapid to 1.0 in X and .01 in Z. It would then pick up the first line in the threading cycle. It would pull out to 1.055" and feed to the proper Z depth at the proper pitch. THEN it would RAPID INTO the part by .055" and RAPID to the start Z position- meaning it'll crash into the cylinder and then drag its way to the breech face at 1000 ipm. Well, it's going to try like hell to do it anyway. In addition to destroying your insert it's going to ruin the barrel tennon. You'd have a real mess on your hands that resulted in a bout $500-$600 worth of damage at best.
#6.5 You should never start a threading cycle .01 in front of the part (Z value) Modern CNC's are good, robust, powerful tools. They are also heavy. My turret alone is over 1000lbs. Trying to accelerate that much mass from zero to .0625"/rev@4500rpm in a distance of only .01" isn't a good idea. Your thread pitch won't be accurate for the first rev and a half.) As a practice you should always start at least .100" in front of the tennon. Especially on .0625" pitch threads cause your moving at a good clip in the Z axis. Equiment reps may argue this a bit, but experience shows its just a good practice. It adds a nanosecond to the cycle time of the program and saves wear/tear on the servos/ball screws.
<span style="font-weight: bold">G90</span>X1.055Z-.95<span style="font-weight: bold">R.1</span>F.0625<span style="font-weight: bold">M09 </span>
#7 G90 is a canned <span style="font-weight: bold">turning </span>cycle in standard FANUC programming. The encoder isn't picking up the spindle clock/start position so your going to double track, side track, and make a mess of your tennon. Should have read as a G92. (or G71, 73)
#8 R.1 means your threading on a taper. (think pipe thread) Not always a bad thing! I use it alot with certain "custom" actions due to thread taper down by the lugs. Problem is here it's going the WRONG WAY. It should read -.1" Actually it should read more like -.005" because 100 thousandths is insane with only a .955 length of thread. If we used this our thread would be .100 deeper at the tennon/shoulder junction. Like a reverse pipe thread! That'd fit awesome!
#8.5 IF say in a previous program we had a G98 that'd mean inches per minute for feedrate. If we didn't have the G99 in our safety line we'd of threaded our barrel at .0625"/minute instead of .0625"/rev of spindle. That is one SUPAH fine thread my friends!
#9 As you said, the M09 turns the coolant off right when you need it most.
This is all good. The program would just loop with an absolute X position change for each pass. We could write as many X values as we wanted. Hell, do it a .0001" at a time if you want. It'll wear your tool out and likely work harden the barrel, but it could be done this way I guess. If I showed this to a production guy or a tooling tech rep they'd likely tell me my depth of cut is too conservative. In a production setting they are 100% correct. Carbide needs a certain degree of load/pressure in order to work well over the long haul. I use .01 because I have some other parts to my program that fit the thread to each individual receiver. This would be the "roughing portion."
X1.05
X1.04
X1.03
X1.02
X1.01
X1.0
X.992
G0X5.0Z5.0M08 (M08 should be M09 to turn the coolant OFF- part of #9
M99
#10 M99 is an endless loop. Since it wasn't good enough to grenade the barrel/tool the first time I decided to have it repeat over and over to ensure I munch it up really well. It should read M30 which is end of program.
%
All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1k3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm learning so here's my thoughts on it,
1. No spaces make it a difficult read and to troubleshoot.
2. M08 is coolant on, that should be at the start, M09 should be at the end.
All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.
How'd I do Chad?
Mike </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.</div></div>
Actually only certain things become proprietary. The movements G1, G2, G3, stuff is pretty standard. Cutter comp and tool height stuff is too. G40, 41, 42, 43, etc (43 is more for mills I guess)
The M codes (modal codes) get a little weird sometimes. Things like the spindle lock ignore/activate, parts catchers, bar feeders, etc. Those often change, but the basic on/off, movement, spindle, coolant functions stay the same.
%
(REM700 TENNON THREADING CYCLE)
#1 No safety line present-dangerous!
Should have: G54 (work offset) G80 (canned cycle cancel) G97 (kill the constant surface speed) G99 (feed in IPR)
T0202(OD THREADER)
#2 M05S3500 (M05 shuts the spindle off, you goin nowhere fast) S3500 means your trying to thread a 1.0625 OD thread at 3500 rpm. It'll never happen. The turret can't move fast enough to keep up.
#3 Also your surface speed is too much for the carbide with this type of material (barrel steels) You'd need to slow it down to around 1500rpm.
#4 G96S600 (G96 is constant surface speed on, can't use this with a threading cycle. Each depth of cut increase also increases the spindle RPM, this would result in a feed rate change for every pass made. Can't do that on a threading cycle as the encoders won't process the new feedrate. Most machines will just ignore this if you forget to give it a G97, some won't. The S600 means 600 feet of surface per minute. Meaning the tool will travel 600ft/mn regardless of whether its at the center of the part or at the very edge. (think merry go round)
#5 G55S4500 (G55 is a spindle RPM lock when using CSS. Meaning it won't exceed the rpm level in the S4500 portion no matter how bad it wants to with the depth of cut increase. Typically don't exceed the mean spindle rpm (m05/M03 callout earlier) Using CSS is cool but it can also be hard on shit as the spindle is always accelerating/slowing down depending on where the tool is in X. Use for finish passes only in most cases is the best bet. You also have to be careful with it as you can exceed RPM and hurt stuff. (mostly yourself) If your using a big ass chuck for instance you could exceed its safe RPM rating. As the tool moves the center the spindle increases RPM in the attempt to keep the SFM at the tool equal across the face (diameter) of the part.
#6 G0X1.0Z.01 (This is the first real "whammy" of the program. Your line of code here is the <span style="font-weight: bold">start/retract </span>position. The G0 is a rapid so you better be on the spot with this as most modern CNC's are using 1000+ipm rapid rates. Things can go to hell in a hurry. If were cutting 1.055 OD threads we need to stay above this. The X value here should be 1.1" or something like that. Anything over 1.055 is good. In this case the tool would rapid to 1.0 in X and .01 in Z. It would then pick up the first line in the threading cycle. It would pull out to 1.055" and feed to the proper Z depth at the proper pitch. THEN it would RAPID INTO the part by .055" and RAPID to the start Z position- meaning it'll crash into the cylinder and then drag its way to the breech face at 1000 ipm. Well, it's going to try like hell to do it anyway. In addition to destroying your insert it's going to ruin the barrel tennon. You'd have a real mess on your hands that resulted in a bout $500-$600 worth of damage at best.
#6.5 You should never start a threading cycle .01 in front of the part (Z value) Modern CNC's are good, robust, powerful tools. They are also heavy. My turret alone is over 1000lbs. Trying to accelerate that much mass from zero to .0625"/rev@4500rpm in a distance of only .01" isn't a good idea. Your thread pitch won't be accurate for the first rev and a half.) As a practice you should always start at least .100" in front of the tennon. Especially on .0625" pitch threads cause your moving at a good clip in the Z axis. Equiment reps may argue this a bit, but experience shows its just a good practice. It adds a nanosecond to the cycle time of the program and saves wear/tear on the servos/ball screws.
<span style="font-weight: bold">G90</span>X1.055Z-.95<span style="font-weight: bold">R.1</span>F.0625<span style="font-weight: bold">M09 </span>
#7 G90 is a canned <span style="font-weight: bold">turning </span>cycle in standard FANUC programming. The encoder isn't picking up the spindle clock/start position so your going to double track, side track, and make a mess of your tennon. Should have read as a G92. (or G71, 73)
#8 R.1 means your threading on a taper. (think pipe thread) Not always a bad thing! I use it alot with certain "custom" actions due to thread taper down by the lugs. Problem is here it's going the WRONG WAY. It should read -.1" Actually it should read more like -.005" because 100 thousandths is insane with only a .955 length of thread. If we used this our thread would be .100 deeper at the tennon/shoulder junction. Like a reverse pipe thread! That'd fit awesome!
#8.5 IF say in a previous program we had a G98 that'd mean inches per minute for feedrate. If we didn't have the G99 in our safety line we'd of threaded our barrel at .0625"/minute instead of .0625"/rev of spindle. That is one SUPAH fine thread my friends!
#9 As you said, the M09 turns the coolant off right when you need it most.
This is all good. The program would just loop with an absolute X position change for each pass. We could write as many X values as we wanted. Hell, do it a .0001" at a time if you want. It'll wear your tool out and likely work harden the barrel, but it could be done this way I guess. If I showed this to a production guy or a tooling tech rep they'd likely tell me my depth of cut is too conservative. In a production setting they are 100% correct. Carbide needs a certain degree of load/pressure in order to work well over the long haul. I use .01 because I have some other parts to my program that fit the thread to each individual receiver. This would be the "roughing portion."
X1.05
X1.04
X1.03
X1.02
X1.01
X1.0
X.992
G0X5.0Z5.0M08 (M08 should be M09 to turn the coolant OFF- part of #9
M99
#10 M99 is an endless loop. Since it wasn't good enough to grenade the barrel/tool the first time I decided to have it repeat over and over to ensure I munch it up really well. It should read M30 which is end of program.
%
All machine controllers are a little different but I thought those would be easy to see and pretty standard regardless of machine.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
god bless high speed steel, waking up early and taking my time. I do not need to cut 60" per minute of threads on a precision fit. tis' a good time to take a couple extra minutes. saving a couple minutes vs crashing and wasting the whole rodeo seems silly to me.
kudos to those who's divine power supercedes mine.
god bless high speed steel, waking up early and taking my time. I do not need to cut 60" per minute of threads on a precision fit. tis' a good time to take a couple extra minutes. saving a couple minutes vs crashing and wasting the whole rodeo seems silly to me.
kudos to those who's divine power supercedes mine.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
Its all about time and cost. The less time involved for the same costs, the more profit.
I'm all over the idea of threading at 1000+RPM. Better yet, I'm all over the idea of pushing START, and then by the time I get my coffee, being done. More time to shoot.
Mike
Its all about time and cost. The less time involved for the same costs, the more profit.
I'm all over the idea of threading at 1000+RPM. Better yet, I'm all over the idea of pushing START, and then by the time I get my coffee, being done. More time to shoot.
Mike
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hero's machine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">god bless high speed steel, waking up early and taking my time. I do not need to cut 60" per minute of threads on a precision fit. tis' a good time to take a couple extra minutes. saving a couple minutes vs crashing and wasting the whole rodeo seems silly to me.
kudos to those who's divine power supercedes mine. </div></div>
It's not about doing it quickly. It's about repeatable quality, fit, finish, and time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hero's machine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">god bless high speed steel, waking up early and taking my time. I do not need to cut 60" per minute of threads on a precision fit. tis' a good time to take a couple extra minutes. saving a couple minutes vs crashing and wasting the whole rodeo seems silly to me.
kudos to those who's divine power supercedes mine. </div></div>
It's not about doing it quickly. It's about repeatable quality, fit, finish, and time.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody can do that on a cnc! </div></div>
As to threading on a manual at 1Krpm. Yes, you can do it and no it does not have to be on a Hardinge. Spend a weekend with some 1.25" bar stock doing nothing but machining practice tennons. Start your tool an inch or so in front of the tennon. Don't be concerned with getting to the shoulder just yet. That'll come later. Mark a line on the cylinder well in front of it for a safety margin.
Start with a cadence in your head to time the pull out. Use the palm of your hand to rotate the cross slide instead of grabbing the handle with fingers. If the handle is at 12/6 o clock its too easy to rock it the wrong way on the downward/upward "push/pull" and you can accidently cram the tool right into the tennon.
Make sure your brake works on your lathe. Engage the nut, start your cadence, pull out, disengage, and hit the brake in one fluid movement.
If the blind guy running a lathe at Western Forge in Colorado Springs, CO can do it anyone here should be able to. (no chit, he really is/was blind!)
Practice, practice, practice. About the time you get sick of making tennons is the time your starting to get good at it.
C. </div></div>
I'm not claiming to be the resident Grand Poobah of machinists or gunsmiths which is why I am asking questions. I'm not questioning your experience or being disrespectful and don't claim to know every single little trick on a lathe or cnc. What I do have is 16 years experience on a manual lathe building my own rifles and winning countless tournaments with them.
I'm simply asking for verification or the knowledge on being able to thread a barrel @ 1000 rpm where you don't destroy your threading tool. I don't have hands lighting quick as you and am not able to disengage my manual lathe every time to within 1 - 2 threads of the shoulder without destroying my carbide inserts at 1000 RPM. If you are suggesting that Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder can do it, humor me, and show how it's done without destroying your tools. Do it with a blindfold on a manual lathe and I'll even call you "Sensei".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody can do that on a cnc! </div></div>
As to threading on a manual at 1Krpm. Yes, you can do it and no it does not have to be on a Hardinge. Spend a weekend with some 1.25" bar stock doing nothing but machining practice tennons. Start your tool an inch or so in front of the tennon. Don't be concerned with getting to the shoulder just yet. That'll come later. Mark a line on the cylinder well in front of it for a safety margin.
Start with a cadence in your head to time the pull out. Use the palm of your hand to rotate the cross slide instead of grabbing the handle with fingers. If the handle is at 12/6 o clock its too easy to rock it the wrong way on the downward/upward "push/pull" and you can accidently cram the tool right into the tennon.
Make sure your brake works on your lathe. Engage the nut, start your cadence, pull out, disengage, and hit the brake in one fluid movement.
If the blind guy running a lathe at Western Forge in Colorado Springs, CO can do it anyone here should be able to. (no chit, he really is/was blind!)
Practice, practice, practice. About the time you get sick of making tennons is the time your starting to get good at it.
C. </div></div>
I'm not claiming to be the resident Grand Poobah of machinists or gunsmiths which is why I am asking questions. I'm not questioning your experience or being disrespectful and don't claim to know every single little trick on a lathe or cnc. What I do have is 16 years experience on a manual lathe building my own rifles and winning countless tournaments with them.
I'm simply asking for verification or the knowledge on being able to thread a barrel @ 1000 rpm where you don't destroy your threading tool. I don't have hands lighting quick as you and am not able to disengage my manual lathe every time to within 1 - 2 threads of the shoulder without destroying my carbide inserts at 1000 RPM. If you are suggesting that Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder can do it, humor me, and show how it's done without destroying your tools. Do it with a blindfold on a manual lathe and I'll even call you "Sensei".
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
I don't even own a manual lathe anymore!
Seriously! Unless my little benchtop Prazi hobby lathe that I use for fitting guard screws qualifies.
Like I said. Practice it. I didn't learn it overnight. I spent a weekend burning up a nice long stick of Nesika/Dakota's material learning how. It didn't come at once, it didn't even come by lunch time on Saturday. But it did come after doing prolly 50/75 of them over and over and over and over again. Eventually I got it.
If race car drivers and pilots can develop split reflexes so can machinists.
I gain nothing here by claiming it since I don't even own one anymore. (again, aside from little hobby lathe that does nothing more than trim guard screws and poke holes for little idjit jobs here in the shop.)
If still in doubt try this: Call COR BON ammunition and ask for Pete Pi Jr. A couple years ago they bought a Grizzly Lathe. I helped them set it up. I showed Pete how to thread. I used a piece of 1.25" 4140 prehard. Ran a couple sample tennons for him to show how to do it.
Best I can offer at this point.
PS. The dude at WF in COS really was/is blind. His mike's were plugged into a laptop and talked to him. He could run a manual (including threading) lathe.
Worse comes to worse, flip the tool upside down and run it in reverse. That works too.
I don't even own a manual lathe anymore!
Seriously! Unless my little benchtop Prazi hobby lathe that I use for fitting guard screws qualifies.
Like I said. Practice it. I didn't learn it overnight. I spent a weekend burning up a nice long stick of Nesika/Dakota's material learning how. It didn't come at once, it didn't even come by lunch time on Saturday. But it did come after doing prolly 50/75 of them over and over and over and over again. Eventually I got it.
If race car drivers and pilots can develop split reflexes so can machinists.
I gain nothing here by claiming it since I don't even own one anymore. (again, aside from little hobby lathe that does nothing more than trim guard screws and poke holes for little idjit jobs here in the shop.)
If still in doubt try this: Call COR BON ammunition and ask for Pete Pi Jr. A couple years ago they bought a Grizzly Lathe. I helped them set it up. I showed Pete how to thread. I used a piece of 1.25" 4140 prehard. Ran a couple sample tennons for him to show how to do it.
Best I can offer at this point.
PS. The dude at WF in COS really was/is blind. His mike's were plugged into a laptop and talked to him. He could run a manual (including threading) lathe.
Worse comes to worse, flip the tool upside down and run it in reverse. That works too.
Re: PT & G Indicate/Range Rods or "Grizzly" Rods
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PS. The dude at WF in COS really was/is blind. His mike's were plugged into a laptop and talked to him. He could run a manual (including threading) lathe.
Worse comes to worse, flip the tool upside down and run it in reverse. That works too. </div></div>
I run my threading tool upside down and the lathe in reverse while threading.
I taught myself to run a lathe 20 years ago and nobody ever told me you couldn't do it that way so I just kept doing it that way.
I have my cheat sheets on the wall with all my required offsets for the tools I use for all the standard threads.
They are sorta like manual machine g codes...
I threaded a barrel one time looking only at the handwheels just to see how it would come out.
It came out perfect.
I have been threading at around 300rpm, but I get scared when I try 16tpi much past that.
I guess it's time to grab some scrap and play around with high speed threading...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PS. The dude at WF in COS really was/is blind. His mike's were plugged into a laptop and talked to him. He could run a manual (including threading) lathe.
Worse comes to worse, flip the tool upside down and run it in reverse. That works too. </div></div>
I run my threading tool upside down and the lathe in reverse while threading.
I taught myself to run a lathe 20 years ago and nobody ever told me you couldn't do it that way so I just kept doing it that way.
I have my cheat sheets on the wall with all my required offsets for the tools I use for all the standard threads.
They are sorta like manual machine g codes...
I threaded a barrel one time looking only at the handwheels just to see how it would come out.
It came out perfect.
I have been threading at around 300rpm, but I get scared when I try 16tpi much past that.
I guess it's time to grab some scrap and play around with high speed threading...
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