Night Vision Pulsar clip ons.. good? Bad? Trash?
- Thread starter Widowmaker300
- Start date
mark got it right ... my problem with the pulsars ... and most of the non-military thermal clipons is they really aren't clipons, they don't have risley prism or equivalent collminating lenses on the back end. So you have to "adjust" them for every rifle/scope combination.
Also, most of the commercial clipons only support about 3x to 5x on the magnification on the day scope. I want more !
The only commercial thermal clipon I would want to buy is the SNIPE and even though it does have risley prism or equivalent back end ... at least on the one I had, they skipped a step. They forgot to put it on a collimating table! Soooo, you still have to adjust it for every rifle/scope combination. But it can get up to 7x with a decent image. I pushed it to 8x
If you want a low cost solution for hog / yote hunting ... and 3x to 5x works for you ... then the pulsars will work. If you want 10x or above on the day scope, then the pulsars are not even in the ball park. If you go that way, then your issue will be mounting. You can mount them on the objective bell of the day scope, but in my experience that doesn't work too well. It will work for a 5.56 or below ... but when I've tried on a .308 the mount kept coming loose. I tried to tighten it down more and broke it. So, a rail mount is preferred. But then that might cause you to need to change your scope mount depending on how close you are on center height alignment.
And then you must realize, you are "zooming in on the TV". So at 2x you will loose 75% of your pixels ... and at 4x you will loose another 75% of your pixels. And arguably "pixel count = resolution". With a dedicated thermal scope, your magnification is on the front end ... 2x .. or 3x ... no resolution loss. You only loose resolution on the dedicated scopes, when you click on the "digital zoom". Then the same rule, 2x loose 75% of the resolution, 4x another 75% otherwise known as 94% of your resolution lost for 4x. With a dedicated thermal scope, you can get 2x or 3x or 4x lens on the front and loose no resolution for that front end magnification. That will give you a good image with some magnification, depending on how far out you are shooting or scanning.
So, for the VAST majority of hunters, I recommend dedicated scopes for thermals and if you really need to shoot long distance with thermal, then I recommend those military thermal clipons specifically designed as long distance clipons, like the FLIR T-75 or the BAE UTC-x.
Also, most of the commercial clipons only support about 3x to 5x on the magnification on the day scope. I want more !
The only commercial thermal clipon I would want to buy is the SNIPE and even though it does have risley prism or equivalent back end ... at least on the one I had, they skipped a step. They forgot to put it on a collimating table! Soooo, you still have to adjust it for every rifle/scope combination. But it can get up to 7x with a decent image. I pushed it to 8x
If you want a low cost solution for hog / yote hunting ... and 3x to 5x works for you ... then the pulsars will work. If you want 10x or above on the day scope, then the pulsars are not even in the ball park. If you go that way, then your issue will be mounting. You can mount them on the objective bell of the day scope, but in my experience that doesn't work too well. It will work for a 5.56 or below ... but when I've tried on a .308 the mount kept coming loose. I tried to tighten it down more and broke it. So, a rail mount is preferred. But then that might cause you to need to change your scope mount depending on how close you are on center height alignment.
And then you must realize, you are "zooming in on the TV". So at 2x you will loose 75% of your pixels ... and at 4x you will loose another 75% of your pixels. And arguably "pixel count = resolution". With a dedicated thermal scope, your magnification is on the front end ... 2x .. or 3x ... no resolution loss. You only loose resolution on the dedicated scopes, when you click on the "digital zoom". Then the same rule, 2x loose 75% of the resolution, 4x another 75% otherwise known as 94% of your resolution lost for 4x. With a dedicated thermal scope, you can get 2x or 3x or 4x lens on the front and loose no resolution for that front end magnification. That will give you a good image with some magnification, depending on how far out you are shooting or scanning.
So, for the VAST majority of hunters, I recommend dedicated scopes for thermals and if you really need to shoot long distance with thermal, then I recommend those military thermal clipons specifically designed as long distance clipons, like the FLIR T-75 or the BAE UTC-x.
This man speaks the TRUTH!!
I’ve bought so much crap I ended up selling for a loss before finally arriving at what I really wanted.
My story ^^^ .
I'd say I'm on my 3rd generation of crap ... bought all the crap I thought I'd ever need ... after using it for 18 months, realized that wasn't the crap I needed, sold that crap got new batch of crap that would do me for life ... after another 18 months, realized that wasn't the crap I needed, sold that crap got new crap. Hence on third gen of crap.
The problem is, as you gain more experience, your understanding of what you need to do what you want to do changes. My overall goals haven't really changed in six years since moving out here to rural area, but my understanding of what I need to achieve those goals has !!
But I'm finally pretty satisfied with my thermals. Currently no thermals on the wish list. Though if Trijicon winds up making more skeets and UTCs, I'm sure I'll need another of each for backup ( 2 is 1 ).
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I will repeat the advice I was given at the start of my journey, which I did not follow. But I now realize I should have.
01 - Buy a little, learn a lot
02 - Buy a little more, learn a lot more
(repeat step 02 until "done") ...
So honest question if I'm using 556 or just staying under 4-6× (2-300yd) would a $4kish clip-on commercial unit work
Yup, as long as you understand you probably have to "adjust" it for every rifle/scope combo you put it on. That said ... a dedicated scope for the same price will give you a much better image.
Ok, I used a pulsar xp50 & ir defense Reap. But I couldn't afford to keep either. Be honest the IR Reaper was better as a standalone and it was as a clip on.
So true....
I got my guns figured out after 5 years, last year, finally. But I am just starting into the world of the night.
I have an xp50 which I think is awesome. I don’t see myself offloading that ever, but who knows.
I also just picked up a used omni 8 pvs 14 for buddy use and I have surgeon_shooter building me some high end dtnvg’s. I could see myself offloading the 14 in favor of of a buddy bino set up. But it’s a really clean and effective tube. No moon or stars last night and we were walking around on a wooded trail with a great view. Pretty happy with it right now.
On the laser front, I picked up a used D2 and a new MAWL with EC2. The MAWL is a monster, it’s insane. The D2 holds its own but the ergonomics of the MAWL just absolutely blow it out of the water. So I will probably revolve that door.
At least with the night vision stuff it seems to hold its value pretty well for resale, lol.
I got my guns figured out after 5 years, last year, finally. But I am just starting into the world of the night.
I have an xp50 which I think is awesome. I don’t see myself offloading that ever, but who knows.
I also just picked up a used omni 8 pvs 14 for buddy use and I have surgeon_shooter building me some high end dtnvg’s. I could see myself offloading the 14 in favor of of a buddy bino set up. But it’s a really clean and effective tube. No moon or stars last night and we were walking around on a wooded trail with a great view. Pretty happy with it right now.
On the laser front, I picked up a used D2 and a new MAWL with EC2. The MAWL is a monster, it’s insane. The D2 holds its own but the ergonomics of the MAWL just absolutely blow it out of the water. So I will probably revolve that door.
At least with the night vision stuff it seems to hold its value pretty well for resale, lol.
You can get a mk2 35 and probably an xp50 for around 4kish used. I’m seeing that pretty frequently lately. Just an fyi. You just need to be pretty sure of what you are getting.
If you are definitely shooting 2 - 300 frequently, then I’d go the trijicon. Pulsar if you are frequently inside of 200. I love the wide field of view on the pulsar, great for scanning.
Be honest with yourself about what distance 90% of your hunting will be. I love a do all tool. But I think nighttime dictates specialized tools more than daytime for sure.
I scan with a ps640 so if it's out there I see it. But I spent 45min circling what I thought was a beaver it was giving my uncle problems. Only to walk up to 100yd of it with my ps15 and see a jug of antifreeze... so a clip-on would be awesome but only needed a couple times a year.
Why would a clipon help distinguish anti-freeze from beaver ? I don't get that.
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I've also shot several rocks in my early days of using thermal (thinking I was shooting rats/mice). And once I realized that, I added a "must see it move" rule to my PID. I still make occasional mistakes, but I think the most important aspect of PID with thermal is training the observer. Get out there and practice, practice, practice. Maybe it takes 2000 hours to get "decent" at it, so set expectations accordingly and practice, practice, practice. I think I had read it would take 2 years to get comfortable with thermal. For me, I only average about 10 hours a week outside at night, so it took me longer. And when you think you see a beaver, ask yourself. "Should it have moved yet? "Why is this beaver not moving?" etc. Question your initial ID.
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There was a blue on blue case in Afganistan involving Brit forces near Sangin. I'll give a short version of the story. The shooter using thermal miss-identified some folks working near a road at night and thought they were Taliban ... and he shot one of them ... only to then hear on the radio that a friendly had been shot. The post-mortem blamed "thermal" (among other reasons). I strongly disagree.
I blame the command for not understanding the training requirements of thermal and not instituting training requirements for thermal. The shooter had never touched a thermal before he arrived in Afghanistan. Despite a 6 month training cycle before his unit deployed to Afghanistan, they were given zero nanoseconds of training on thermal. The night in question was the first time the shooter had used the thermal in battle.
While, for many purposes, I think thermal is a superior choice over NV, that comes with a caveat and that caveat is MUST COMMIT TO THE REQUIRED TRAINING. And that means the COMMAND must commit. And unfortunately, the thermal advocates are not talking to the command and making them understand this, so the training doesn't happen.
I've been lucky and never shot a deer or a cow or even my neighbors dogs. But I do a lot of checking and if there is any doubt, I do not shoot.
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I've also shot several rocks in my early days of using thermal (thinking I was shooting rats/mice). And once I realized that, I added a "must see it move" rule to my PID. I still make occasional mistakes, but I think the most important aspect of PID with thermal is training the observer. Get out there and practice, practice, practice. Maybe it takes 2000 hours to get "decent" at it, so set expectations accordingly and practice, practice, practice. I think I had read it would take 2 years to get comfortable with thermal. For me, I only average about 10 hours a week outside at night, so it took me longer. And when you think you see a beaver, ask yourself. "Should it have moved yet? "Why is this beaver not moving?" etc. Question your initial ID.
==
There was a blue on blue case in Afganistan involving Brit forces near Sangin. I'll give a short version of the story. The shooter using thermal miss-identified some folks working near a road at night and thought they were Taliban ... and he shot one of them ... only to then hear on the radio that a friendly had been shot. The post-mortem blamed "thermal" (among other reasons). I strongly disagree.
I blame the command for not understanding the training requirements of thermal and not instituting training requirements for thermal. The shooter had never touched a thermal before he arrived in Afghanistan. Despite a 6 month training cycle before his unit deployed to Afghanistan, they were given zero nanoseconds of training on thermal. The night in question was the first time the shooter had used the thermal in battle.
While, for many purposes, I think thermal is a superior choice over NV, that comes with a caveat and that caveat is MUST COMMIT TO THE REQUIRED TRAINING. And that means the COMMAND must commit. And unfortunately, the thermal advocates are not talking to the command and making them understand this, so the training doesn't happen.
I've been lucky and never shot a deer or a cow or even my neighbors dogs. But I do a lot of checking and if there is any doubt, I do not shoot.
Long story short just because you can buy technology doesn't mean you know how to use it or have skill. Note I didn't engage the antifreeze ? but I did stare at it for a but even after I got within 50yds.
Have to message me sometime I'll tell you the story about your footsteps collapsing in on themselves behind you and making noises in the snow when your stalking at night.
Have to message me sometime I'll tell you the story about your footsteps collapsing in on themselves behind you and making noises in the snow when your stalking at night.
Aye, no disrespect intended !! And I try to discuss my experience rather than focus on others experience which I know nothing about.
A story about me. When I first got my "kryptek" wet suit. I was out with it and I thought I heard a "snake" slithering in the grass on beach of our main pond, which I was walking down. And the hairs rose up on my back ! But I soon realized it was the krytek crap making the noises. I still hear the noises but I'm used to them now, so know I can ignore them. And yes, in general some noises we make at night can somehow sound like they are not coming from us and that still happens. But the more we go out, the more we get used to processing such information quickly.
And by doing lots of 360s we can also greatly reduce the chance that something can be near us and we haven't seen it. I feel "blind" when I go out with thermal.
A story about me. When I first got my "kryptek" wet suit. I was out with it and I thought I heard a "snake" slithering in the grass on beach of our main pond, which I was walking down. And the hairs rose up on my back ! But I soon realized it was the krytek crap making the noises. I still hear the noises but I'm used to them now, so know I can ignore them. And yes, in general some noises we make at night can somehow sound like they are not coming from us and that still happens. But the more we go out, the more we get used to processing such information quickly.
And by doing lots of 360s we can also greatly reduce the chance that something can be near us and we haven't seen it. I feel "blind" when I go out with thermal.
Yeah weird stuff happens playing in the dark. I’ve followed a buck that was hopping and trotting around like a damn coyote, I’ve had skunks come in to the call, etc. I once clicked the safety off 3 times on an owl that was sitting on a fence post in the middle of a field. I thought it was a coyote facing me because it was an open field. The owl’s heat signature was different because they’re so well insulated. Mostly the eyes glowed white. The next day I looked at that spot and found a property stake post in the field that the owl perched on. Pulling the trigger on that owl would have been terrible
Yeah for me I'm in hills, and often looking THRU woods. So I can see critters which are either in the woods or on the other side of maybe 100 or 300 yards of woods. But I only see specs of black. So figuring out what they are and even WHERE they are taking time. It could be one of my cows, it could be a deer it could be 2-3 coons in a tree ... and in fact .. .such observations have turned out to be all of the above. But with experiences in checking the images, watching the movement and checking elevations (could those specs BE on a rise behind the tree?) I can now a days usually figure it out by watching and cogitating and checking various possibilities and even moving laterally to gain different angles on the critter. That helps a lot !
