LRH, etc etc. Most hunters refuse to learn marksmanship from other shooting disciplines, especially if that discipline appeals to tactical shooters.
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Dude, just like most people who carry a handgun have no fucking clue how to use one and don't want to learn or be challenged.
And when they are advised on how to use it correctly, they respond with some bullshit excuse about where the technique came from.
That's why I don't try to help shooters that I don't know.
Yes, too many people with bad info all want to "coach" people and tell them what they're doing wrong. Sours a lot of people on folks who offer unsolicited "help". It's like when you were in the weight room trying to hit your max and your back arched, so the guy benching the bar with no plates, who started lifting a week before, comes over to let you know that your form is wrong. I have VERY limited range time, and when I go, I want to shoot, test, etc. When I get there and see somebody wandering around NOT shooting, I know I need to avoid eye contact or I'm going to get lots of "help." Probably well-meaning. Maybe even useful. But I'm not open to it.
I try to be friendly to fellow shooters, and I like to stop and talk when I have time. But I don't coach unless somebody approaches me.
I try to be friendly to fellow shooters, and I like to stop and talk when I have time. But I don't coach unless somebody approaches me.
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Maybe not even then, most are askholes.
I wonder if there are forums dedicated to swimming where swimmers endlessly compare Olympic swim suits to whatever the military issues the SEALS.
If...there were such a place....do you think...it would have pictures?......Asking for a friend.
I'll send you a picture of me in a speedo if you want.
It'll cost you 5 bucks though.
Hi,
Lets just pause and take a minute to admire the PRS marksmanship, lol
Sincerely,
Theis
What percentage of a military snipers job is shooting? I'm not going to throw a number at it, as I'm not a sniper, and never was, but I bet the number is pretty low.
Competitive shooters spend much more time focusing on the actual aspect of shooting then snipers do. But the role of a sniper encompasses much much more then just shooting.
In a competition like Assassins' Way, in which many skills are tested, not just shooting, I would put my money on a good military sniper over a jersey wearing son of a bitch any day.
On square, one way ranges, without having to hump around 40+lbs of gear plus armor.....sure.
Start having to worry about getting shot, taking all the required gear in, along with a myriad of other factors, and the skill level gets much closer when the shots happen.
Otherwise, the top PRS guys should be taking the easy money they can make with Assassin’s Way.
It’s a completely apples to oranges comparison.
The second you take anything away from the “top” shooters, most of them don’t adapt well. There are obvious exceptions.
I recently watched the “best” not be able to hit a .8 mil wide/tall target off a rooftop @ 400 yds just because they couldn’t use a bag.
Who defines “best” and “better”
That leads me to the next question. Who and what defines “Pro”.
That leads me to the next question. Who and what defines “Pro”.
Hi,
The answer to that would be ironically the same as mentioned above, lol...
All the wisdom you seek operates on continuous loop to that google search
Sincerely,
Theis
for fun I used google to define Professional.Hi,
The answer to that would be ironically the same as mentioned above, lol...
All the wisdom you seek operates on continuous loop to that google search
Sincerely,
Theis
Ironically it better describes the Mil/LEO
A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified professional activity.
Now in sports last I checked it doesn’t apply in the Series competition shooters.
A person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport or branch of the performing arts, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.
so what your saying is a 8oz trigger and 30 pound bag might not work well when:
wearing gloves
tired
cold
hungry
thirsty
adrenalin through the roof
heat pounding from humping up a hill
oh...and getting shot at
well, you learn something new everyday...i just did
Hi,
Maybe it is time for you to reduce your time at the Sig academy, lololol
You are turning Air Force....
Sincerely,
Theis
Whoa, snipers really have to do that stuff? Hollywood has let me down again.
Next you will tell me silencers don't go "pew pew" like the movies...
Every American needs to read this book....
As far as I know there are no snipers in it and the mil couldnt even supply the fighters with the right ammo for the rifles they were shooting, much of their survival depended on scavenging equipment from the Chinese they were stacking like cord wood.
Equipment didnt matter......it all came down to the will to win under the absolute worst of conditions.
The OPs original concerns regarding "lethality of caliber" in this instance played a role, .30 carbine didnt perform well against winter padded Chinese.
This should be required reading for grade schoolers and they should have a National Holiday to celebrate these guys......not one of them worried about their self defined pronouns.
Waiting for Lowlight or even better, Theis' Hoplite Academy, to swing through the northeast and give me some diversity.
Isn’t that just a rear bag. Shooter wanted to make sure the rifle had the appropriate height bag for rifle alignment. I have heard getting as low as possible to the ground is not encouraged any longer. It’s about comfort and NPA.
I was totally kidding tho lol.
Here's a blast from the past that I enjoyed reading...perhaps from a time and genre where there was a might less divergence...
Terry's Tactical Two-Sixty AI
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I don't have even a small portion of knowledge and experience in this. But, I listen to Jacob, Frank, Mark, Phil, Caylen, etc. What I hear is stuff that makes it seem like there is no clear cut answer. There are pros and cons on both sides. I am also here to learn. If I am way off base with my thinking, please do me a Sniper Hide and rip me a new one. I am here to learn and am already humbled enough...
I am just a guy trying to suck the marrow out of life and take the best that I can from everyone and every place I can.
Yes, the Uno in the helicopter is absurd, and it was one person AFAIK in all the years of RO matches. That embodies what is wrong. On the other hand, many PRS shooters have gone to one bag. Isn't that right? Don't these shooters change their gear for different games?Yes, it is often a heavy bag, but when shooters go to Mammoth they fill it with something lighter or take it empty like Andy did, and fill it after the ruck. Rusty Ulmer shot his ultralight 6.5 creedmoor very well at the NRL Hunter match, dropping no points the second day.
Seems to me there are a ton of moving parts and variables to the whole, sniper vs civilian. A lot of it seems like it is cherry picking an apples to oranges comparisons from a side based on your point of view.
There are arguments to be made on both sides. I want to hear the fine arguments. I love it when Frank rails on PRS and the bad stuff it teaches and encourages. I listen and it has helped me a ton.
If the question is about the rifles, other than maybe changing the barrel and stripping the weights, wouldn't they be as good or better than most sniper rifles?
For example, most of the comp guns are Rem 700 clones. The military used/uses Rem 700s. Police use Rem 700 off the shelf. Are the actions worse in a comp gun? No. Are the triggers? Not really, except maybe delicate ones like Jewel. Are the chassis or stock that different? Not really, except "weight kits". Magazines? No.
Does every sniper in the military get AI rifles?
Are messy muddy matches breaking all the comp guns?
Are the PRS chassis and stocks materially different than what has been and is used now in the military?
If the PRS set a maximum weight rule, of the same weight as an AI, would hit percentage go down that much?
IMO, the only real difference between them are the comp guns have heavier and longer barrel (but once you factor in brake on PRS vs. Suppressed mil, is there a big difference in length? ), weight kits, and caliber. Some stocks like Foundation might not be suited for battle, I don't know, but they aren't so different functionally than a Macmillan.
Would a heavy trigger really ruin a comp shooter, or do they shoot it light because it is a game? Is it impossible for them to outshoot a sniper if they had a light trigger? Do they really have no fundamentals? (A light trigger didn't make me any better, though I tried!)
Why don't military and law enforcement snipers win more PRS? Is it all because it is a game?
Why are many of the top rifle schools taught by civilians with no military training?
Other than training and the hardness developed in the military, are snipers otherwise selected for traits that are not present in the civilian world?
Doesn't the limited training round count negatively affect the training and skill of a sniper vs a civilian who spends his or her own money?
Doesn't the limited training doctrines of the military limit the skills a sniper will learn unless he goes to the outside?
Is there no value to shooting PRS for a sniper?
How many snipers have the same passion for shooting that civilians do? What effect does that have? What about the police sniper that won't buy a tripod and the department won't supply one?
Why is it that Jacob, Frank, Mark, Phil, and Caylen talk about getting training to the professional snipers?
Are they no better than snake oil salesmen to sell their training? I don't believe that for a second... then why are they saying the things they say about what changes the military needs to adopt from the civilian world?
It just isn't cut and dried. Now, I like the NRL Hunter series a lot more, and will do more CD matches in the future. It is far more practical.
Thought experiment:
Who will have better fundamentals and more knowledge and skill about positional shooting?
Who will be able to shoot the other person's rifle better (assuming the rifles are fit to the person but no other changes)?
A) a comp shooter that has trained with Rifles Only in three courses, shoots thousands of rounds a year training, and competes in local matches for five years.
Or
B) a 5 year marine sniper
Will the 8 ounce trigger make the sniper a better shooter? Will the PRS shooter jerk a 2 pound trigger?
Are Phil and Caylen saying that they were humbled at their first civilian matches because of their rifle or their shooting skills? Or both? Anyone say they are liars?
My sample of one for personal experience was that when it comes to positional shooting off a barricade or tripod, a civilian who has a couple years of local PRS matches and a passion for learning can actually shoot positional better than a few sniper instructors. But, they are far more qualified in many other shooting aspects than the civilian. The reason is just because you don't know what you don't know and aren't skilled at what you don't practice.
I am just a guy trying to suck the marrow out of life and take the best that I can from everyone and every place I can.
Yes, the Uno in the helicopter is absurd, and it was one person AFAIK in all the years of RO matches. That embodies what is wrong. On the other hand, many PRS shooters have gone to one bag. Isn't that right? Don't these shooters change their gear for different games?Yes, it is often a heavy bag, but when shooters go to Mammoth they fill it with something lighter or take it empty like Andy did, and fill it after the ruck. Rusty Ulmer shot his ultralight 6.5 creedmoor very well at the NRL Hunter match, dropping no points the second day.
Seems to me there are a ton of moving parts and variables to the whole, sniper vs civilian. A lot of it seems like it is cherry picking an apples to oranges comparisons from a side based on your point of view.
There are arguments to be made on both sides. I want to hear the fine arguments. I love it when Frank rails on PRS and the bad stuff it teaches and encourages. I listen and it has helped me a ton.
If the question is about the rifles, other than maybe changing the barrel and stripping the weights, wouldn't they be as good or better than most sniper rifles?
For example, most of the comp guns are Rem 700 clones. The military used/uses Rem 700s. Police use Rem 700 off the shelf. Are the actions worse in a comp gun? No. Are the triggers? Not really, except maybe delicate ones like Jewel. Are the chassis or stock that different? Not really, except "weight kits". Magazines? No.
Does every sniper in the military get AI rifles?
Are messy muddy matches breaking all the comp guns?
Are the PRS chassis and stocks materially different than what has been and is used now in the military?
If the PRS set a maximum weight rule, of the same weight as an AI, would hit percentage go down that much?
IMO, the only real difference between them are the comp guns have heavier and longer barrel (but once you factor in brake on PRS vs. Suppressed mil, is there a big difference in length? ), weight kits, and caliber. Some stocks like Foundation might not be suited for battle, I don't know, but they aren't so different functionally than a Macmillan.
Would a heavy trigger really ruin a comp shooter, or do they shoot it light because it is a game? Is it impossible for them to outshoot a sniper if they had a light trigger? Do they really have no fundamentals? (A light trigger didn't make me any better, though I tried!)
Why don't military and law enforcement snipers win more PRS? Is it all because it is a game?
Why are many of the top rifle schools taught by civilians with no military training?
Other than training and the hardness developed in the military, are snipers otherwise selected for traits that are not present in the civilian world?
Doesn't the limited training round count negatively affect the training and skill of a sniper vs a civilian who spends his or her own money?
Doesn't the limited training doctrines of the military limit the skills a sniper will learn unless he goes to the outside?
Is there no value to shooting PRS for a sniper?
How many snipers have the same passion for shooting that civilians do? What effect does that have? What about the police sniper that won't buy a tripod and the department won't supply one?
Why is it that Jacob, Frank, Mark, Phil, and Caylen talk about getting training to the professional snipers?
Are they no better than snake oil salesmen to sell their training? I don't believe that for a second... then why are they saying the things they say about what changes the military needs to adopt from the civilian world?
It just isn't cut and dried. Now, I like the NRL Hunter series a lot more, and will do more CD matches in the future. It is far more practical.
Thought experiment:
Who will have better fundamentals and more knowledge and skill about positional shooting?
Who will be able to shoot the other person's rifle better (assuming the rifles are fit to the person but no other changes)?
A) a comp shooter that has trained with Rifles Only in three courses, shoots thousands of rounds a year training, and competes in local matches for five years.
Or
B) a 5 year marine sniper
Will the 8 ounce trigger make the sniper a better shooter? Will the PRS shooter jerk a 2 pound trigger?
Are Phil and Caylen saying that they were humbled at their first civilian matches because of their rifle or their shooting skills? Or both? Anyone say they are liars?
My sample of one for personal experience was that when it comes to positional shooting off a barricade or tripod, a civilian who has a couple years of local PRS matches and a passion for learning can actually shoot positional better than a few sniper instructors. But, they are far more qualified in many other shooting aspects than the civilian. The reason is just because you don't know what you don't know and aren't skilled at what you don't practice.
So, uhm, what am I looking at? Is the shooter in a sleeping bag or is that a giant rest?
The man that inspired me to join the military was air force. HE was one of the highest decorated PJ's in Viet Nam. 3 bronze stars silver star dsc multiple purple hearts and 5 years in country. FOR the marines here he earned 2 bronze stars during tet. One at Khe Sahn and the other at Hue both rescuing pilots. He was put up for the CMH 3 different times. He ended up with the above ribbons for his actions. My affection for the air force lies in the fact they let me ride in there planes for most of my trips with them only got to land a few times still in them though
Better depends on your definition. The military sniper is the better scout, is more mindful of terrain, better at concealment, better at target identification, has better communication skills and so forth.
A competitor can use all of his time to focus on his shooting skills, while snipers have to have maintain a multitude of skills.
Are the top PRS shooters marginally better than mil snipers because of the long list of "what the pros use"? All the talk of compounding errors adding up to misses... This "pro" equipment exists to reduce the influence of shooter input and error. The 8oz trigger plays a significant role in this as does the weight of the rifle.
PRS shooters are also better at PRS matches because they practice spicifically for them. Take a winning Rally Car driver (mil sniper) and put him in F1 (PRS) after a day of practice. The Rally driver would probably do okay because they know how to drive, but not nearly as well as the drivers that live and breath F1 daily. Reverse the scenario and it works the same for the F1 driver in Rally.
I think if Mil snipers were allowed to Ricky Bobby their ghillie suits with Hornady, Nightforce, and MPA patches they'd be much better marksman.
PRS shooters are also better at PRS matches because they practice spicifically for them. Take a winning Rally Car driver (mil sniper) and put him in F1 (PRS) after a day of practice. The Rally driver would probably do okay because they know how to drive, but not nearly as well as the drivers that live and breath F1 daily. Reverse the scenario and it works the same for the F1 driver in Rally.
I think if Mil snipers were allowed to Ricky Bobby their ghillie suits with Hornady, Nightforce, and MPA patches they'd be much better marksman.
In racing, sponsor stickers increase speed, traction and fuel efficiency, so why not?I think if Mil snipers were allowed to Ricky Bobby their ghillie suits with Hornady, Nightforce, and MPA patches they'd be much better marksman.
Though a Ranger patch on the uniform raises my appreciation of the person wearing it.
As for the rifles in question:
A tool is often best at its intended purpose. A race bike will probably not win street races since it not set up for bumps and shifting street surfaces.
The same with competition vs service rifles. They are tools for different purposes.
Some things transfer. Technique, add ons and shooting accessories in varying degree. But in the end, knowledge, experience and confidence in the situation will be a very large factor in outcome.
GIve a prs shooter M118lr or better watch how long they stay fundamentally sound shooting Mk 248 mod 0 or mod 1 on a stormy day. Alot of that free recoil shit shooting a 26# supressed 6br will go out the window rather quickly. Today's equipment is far better than what it once was for the military sniper. The ammo is still tar sealed and made when it was made.Are the top PRS shooters marginally better than mil snipers because of the long list of "what the pros use"? All the talk of compounding errors adding up to misses... This "pro" equipment exists to reduce the influence of shooter input and error. The 8oz trigger plays a significant role in this as does the weight of the rifle.
PRS shooters are also better at PRS matches because they practice spicifically for them. Take a winning Rally Car driver (mil sniper) and put him in F1 (PRS) after a day of practice. The Rally driver would probably do okay because they know how to drive, but not nearly as well as the drivers that live and breath F1 daily. Reverse the scenario and it works the same for the F1 driver in Rally.
I think if Mil snipers were allowed to Ricky Bobby their ghillie suits with Hornady, Nightforce, and MPA patches they'd be much better marksman.
Well, here's a neat example of mil sniper training. Pardon the music if it's not your thing, it's not mine. USMC new sniper school
Here are some mil guys using the latest in mil gear that isn’t available to most conventional military snipers. Notice the carryovers from what has been developed through competitions such as PRS: tripods, full length Arca rails, the bipod, Proof barrel, an action that is used on a lot of competition rigs etc. Some things carry over, some don’t. The gear overall isn’t too different and those rifles aren’t much lighter than 18lbs as pictured.
In my experience, aside from boutique calibers, the largest difference is that most competition rigs can’t effectively mount in-line clip on night optics, and most use massive brakes whereas tactically it makes sense to use a suppressor.
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In my experience, aside from boutique calibers, the largest difference is that most competition rigs can’t effectively mount in-line clip on night optics, and most use massive brakes whereas tactically it makes sense to use a suppressor.
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Just got mine together again tonight...
Sighted in the irons sitting on the end of my rifle vice before removing them for the scope install....ten shots today with irons and FGMM 168, 30-06 at 100 yards.....
As an aside, Carlos once voiced a desire for a Model 70 with the Redfield scope from the M40. When he retired he was gifted a Model 70 in a McMillan HTG with a Redfield scope.
Im considering a Leupold M40 repro for my Model 70.....the mil dot reticle would be fantastic.....but the rifle seems too pretty with the Unertl.
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Bravo. Your machine is effective. A nice, effective rifle.
My M70 30-06, was gifted to the descendants with a Weaver V-24; modern enough for the today's times.
While I'm not deer hunting anymore, and am not/never was/never will be a Sniper, I still feel a need to fill the absence. Ever the cheapskate that I am, I chose a Savage Axis II 30-06, and an heirloom Simmons 4.5-18x50. It's also got a Boyd's replacement wood stock.
The scope, mounts, and stock on the original Axis II were flatly pathetic. Upgraded, and with the trigger adjusted, It shoots American Whitetail very nicely, and I actually believe it's a bit lighter than the Featherweight it replaced. The Featherweight was competitive, won all the deer rifle events it entered. The Axis II is a lot cheaper, a tad lass accurate, and carries nicely enough for this old codger. For all the gettin' out and doin' I do these days, it's plenty good enough.
When the Axis first came out, it was super cheapo, and had some genuine flaws. But lately Savage has revisited the line , and it's beginning to look like a keeper.
Greg
My M70 30-06, was gifted to the descendants with a Weaver V-24; modern enough for the today's times.
While I'm not deer hunting anymore, and am not/never was/never will be a Sniper, I still feel a need to fill the absence. Ever the cheapskate that I am, I chose a Savage Axis II 30-06, and an heirloom Simmons 4.5-18x50. It's also got a Boyd's replacement wood stock.
The scope, mounts, and stock on the original Axis II were flatly pathetic. Upgraded, and with the trigger adjusted, It shoots American Whitetail very nicely, and I actually believe it's a bit lighter than the Featherweight it replaced. The Featherweight was competitive, won all the deer rifle events it entered. The Axis II is a lot cheaper, a tad lass accurate, and carries nicely enough for this old codger. For all the gettin' out and doin' I do these days, it's plenty good enough.
When the Axis first came out, it was super cheapo, and had some genuine flaws. But lately Savage has revisited the line , and it's beginning to look like a keeper.
Greg
Wow! I'm jealous. Love that rifle.Just got mine together again tonight...
Sighted in the irons sitting on the end of my rifle vice before removing them for the scope install....ten shots today with irons and FGMM 168, 30-06 at 100 yards.....
As an aside, Carlos once voiced a desire for a Model 70 with the Redfield scope from the M40. When he retired he was gifted a Model 70 in a McMillan HTG with a Redfield scope.
Im considering a Leupold M40 repro for my Model 70.....the mil dot reticle would be fantastic.....but the rifle seems too pretty with the Unertl.
Hi Lux makes the dual focal plane greenie you seek. idk if it is the tvscreen or the round accu track but it is the same color greenJust got mine together again tonight...
Sighted in the irons sitting on the end of my rifle vice before removing them for the scope install....ten shots today with irons and FGMM 168, 30-06 at 100 yards.....
As an aside, Carlos once voiced a desire for a Model 70 with the Redfield scope from the M40. When he retired he was gifted a Model 70 in a McMillan HTG with a Redfield scope.
Im considering a Leupold M40 repro for my Model 70.....the mil dot reticle would be fantastic.....but the rifle seems too pretty with the Unertl.
I have one of the Leupold greenies, actually 3 of them in total. Great scopes to keep me from thinking too much.....really fun on steel. You have to dial down mag though to get the most reticle use out of them.
The HiLux actually has a closer look to the original Redfield than the Leupold but I thinking they purge the bodies with Wu Flu.
I have a NIB Weaver T10 that would be the ideal scope on this, especially if I had it mil reticled.
I am going to play Unertl for a bit though
Just got mine together again tonight...
Sighted in the irons sitting on the end of my rifle vice before removing them for the scope install....ten shots today with irons and FGMM 168, 30-06 at 100 yard
I have an 8x and a 30x Ubertl up at my dad's house. It's amazing how well they shoot. THEre is also a 2x7 accu trac with the tv screen and the turret was done by my grandfather for the yardages. HE engraved the numbers you look at through the window and everytime I see it during der season I still smile as to what he and my other grandfather could do in both shooting and making the tings needed to make them shoot. I had students yesterday that couldn't shoot your group with my 308 wearing a b17 at that distance.
The rifle looks fantastic btw.
how is PRS a “larper” I don’t see them making fake ranks or anything, many of them don’t even do the camo thing, seen plenty of pink, gloss red, etc rifles.
Also it sounds like the sniper system is more akin to a hunter rifle than prs, less rounds fired, less precision required, biggest issue is their equipment being able to handle abuse and misuse and being carried around on foot more.
Also it sounds like the sniper system is more akin to a hunter rifle than prs, less rounds fired, less precision required, biggest issue is their equipment being able to handle abuse and misuse and being carried around on foot more.
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