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pushing your loads to it's full potential

armada

armada

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Feb 4, 2006
    328
    13
    56
    Livermore, California,
    #1
    This is just pure curiosity. I see a lot of different loads for many different calibers. I understand people trying to get their best possible accuracy, maybe even a combination of both accuracy and velocity. For example, 308 win - 175 SMK, one person loads their round up to 44.5 grains of Varget while the other loads theirs to 43 and stop there due to signs of preassure. I understand that each rifle, depending on many factors will show signs of over preassure before the next rifle, each rifle is different in general.

    My personal experience with my GAPs seem to make no difference. I can load my rounds 175 SMKs with 43 grains of RL15 to 45 grains and only velocity is the factor that changes with no signs of pressure. I think it actually shoots better in a 10 shot group. I've even down loaded to 41 grains of RL15 and the results were the same in terms of shooting. But I normally run 43.

    Out of curiosity, what is your goal when loading to higher velocities or maybe what are you trying to acheive when you're load developing? I, myself, just try to get the best grouping with the highest velocity my Sierra program shows for it's loading data.

    Thanks in advance.
     
    #2
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    I think that velocity is overrated, and that as long as the load matches one of the barrel's accuracy nodes and also delivers the projectile to the target at a repectably supersonic velocity, all practical requirements have been met. IMHO, the lowest velocity that achieves these two criteria is the better bargain.

    Yes, higher velocity can mean less drop and drift, but no velocity will eliminate them completely. To my mind that makes wind reading a binary task; you get a hit, or you get a miss. Whether the numbers are bigger or smaller, wind skills are wind skills, and a miss is a miss

    Maybe..., sometimes..., a licketysplittin' load will make a miss into a hit; but to my mind, the cost in barrel throat erosion, etc., makes this the poorer bargain.

    Velocity does not ensure accuracy, marksmanship skills are required for that task.

    Greg
     
    #3
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    Armada, not sure if you have some miracle barrel in that GAP of yours, but the rest of us load to find the best accuracy.

    Best accuracy meaning one thing... Out of all of the combinations we can to whilst handloading, this particular combination gives us the best accuracy out of the rest.

    And i think thats the point where we stop.

    So to me anyway, its not about pushing, its about understanding how a given rifle likes it.

    Its like women dude. Some like to be pushed, some like it slower, some like it hot and high pressured, some dont like it at all (should be returned to manufacturer)
     
    #4
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armada, not sure if you have some miracle barrel in that GAP of yours, but the rest of us load to find the best accuracy.

    Best accuracy meaning one thing... Out of all of the combinations we can to whilst handloading, this particular combination gives us the best accuracy out of the rest.

    And i think thats the point where we stop.

    So to me anyway, its not about pushing, its about understanding how a given rifle likes it.

    Its like women dude. Some like to be pushed, some like it slower, some like it hot and high pressured, some dont like it at all (should be returned to manufacturer) </div></div>

    No sir, i don't think I have some miracle barrel, but I have two 308's that GAP built one on a Surgeon the other on a Badger same barrel twist and length, just one of them is fluted. I can switch brass between the 2 rifles and basically use the same loads between the 2 rifles and they shoot exactly the same. I can even vary the charge, switch brass, primers and can't determine any changes other tham impact point. But it still groups very similar to a lesser charge.

    I know they are very consistant in the rifles they build and I'm sure that there are a lot of other smiths that are able to do similar work, I was jsut curious what other people's goals are. I have always tried to find the best load for my rifles, thus ladder work. But since I have owned these rifles, GAP rifles, whatever I put through them seems to shoot just as well as any other load. My 300WSM and 338 Lapua act the same as well.

    I don't regularly shoot hot loads, but then again, I thought I would try other people loads that has been published on the recipe section and, for me, found no real advantage in anything than my regular loads.

    Thanks everyone.
     
    #5
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    In a cartridge like .308 Win, even a fairly hot load will not cause excessive throat erosion. What's a new barrel cost every 5000 rounds? (And that's being somewhat conservative). Typically, if you do a ladder test, you'll find best accuracy at less than a max load. And regardless of barrel wear/throat erosion, hotter loads are harder on brass.

    Personally, I found a load that is almost compressed that shoots very well and has very little variation. Part of that is carefully weighing loads but part may be because the powder is not shifting much in the case. It is still short of causing excessive pressure signs, however.
     
    #7
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    Speed is not as important to me when working up the load so long as the accuracy is note affected. Having said that, you also don't want it to be too slow either. For example, the 155 scenars performs best with velocity around 2950+ in my rifle. That's where I aim mine. While the 175 SMK shoots awesome at around 2650-2700. So, for me, I usually try to find the middle road and get the best groupings I can while working up the load. After that, I don't worry about it anymore, because I don't shoot for groups. Don't forget, chasing the speed, or accuracy demon can make you run full circle, JMHO.
     
    #8
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    I think, for instance, that a 175SMk is going to use a milder load in a .30-'06 case to reach a similar accuracy node than would be needed with a .308 case. I believe that the closer you are to max, the more barrel life you expend getting the job done.

    I agree, high load density percentages, up to and including compressed loads, are conducive to better accuracy. But I don't think loading to max velocities is the answer. I get my compressed charges by using slower powders to fill the case more, while still retaining a slower velocity.

    Personally, I've yet to eat up a barrel; so I don't know if 5000rd is a realistic expectation. I'll give the benefit of any doubts to those who have more experience in that area. My barrel maker is telling me my .260/142SMk loads are more likely to yield a lifespan of around 2500rd. That may be conservative, as borescoping shows good throat migration at the halfway point.

    IMHO, the very best handloading strategy is to do as much practice/training as possible with a .22LR, and save the centrfire's bore for only the most significant applications.

    Greg
     
    #9
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    Load doesn't seem to make much odds for me in terms of accuracy. I have to say that was a bit of a surprise, but in practical terms the rifle and ammo shoot better than I can. In a rest it delivers about 0.4 moa across a broad range of velocities which for my purposes is great.

    So I try to squeeze enough velocity out of it to get a velocity that is supersonic out to about 1000 yards as that is the longest target I ever get
     
    #12
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    Since I started using Optimum Barrel Time for load development, I just aim for the fastest accuracy node that that barrel, bullet and powder will support. OBT has proved effective enough a method that, so far, it's always put me very near the middle of a big, fat accuracy node that's verifiable through OCW testing. But more times than not that node is a few hundred fps below what the published max load would produce. I could juggle bullets and/or powder and maybe get more MV but that's contrary to my primary motivation for using OBT to start with: it gets me from idea to "production" load in fewer range sessions and fewer rounds fired.
     
    #13
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowr1der</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load for the best accuracy and I don't worry about velocity. </div></div>

    Same. I have also found that with varget I only gain maybe 50fps from the slow node to the high node in my rifle. Just not worth going to a max load for that imo - if I want a .30 cal bullet to go fast I will start using my 300 win.
     
    #14
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    Apparently you missed our multiple threads pimping the 100 yard group weenies.

    Start with a target velocity for the cartridge/bullet/barrel length combo in question. There are knowns or expected velocities for the common combinations. Once you achieve that velocity, start looking at your ES and SD numbers. Tweak your load within its expected velocity range to get low ES and SD, as well as employ other techniques in your loading process that support low ES and SD numbers.

    This target velocity must be achieved with the correct powder for the case capacity and bullet weight so that the load is a) safe in all weather conditions, and b) is on the fat part of the pressure curve, so that the load does not fall off the bottom in cold conditions or shoot up the side in hot conditions. This is both a safety issue and an expected performance of the round issue.

    Once those three numbers are in line, play with seating depth if needed to tighten the group up at 200 yards.

    The first three numbers I talk about above - target velocity, ES, and SD - do not show up in 100 yard groups. They do matter when shooting at longer ranges (over 525 yards) with a spotter.

    A spotter expects to see rounds react a certain way to conditions - that is why the known or expected velocity is important.

    Low ES and SD give you consistent elevation on target. The further away the target, the more elevation variance you have with poor ES/SD numbers. Since you don't shoot field competitions or real life scenarios with a chronograph attached to the front of the rifle, you have no way of knowing if the elevation variance was the shooter, the ranged distance, or the ammo, and no way to know which rounds are the fast ones and which ones are the slow ones.

    In other words, unless you want to compete in 100-200-300 yard bench rest competition, the vast majority of reloaders are doing it all wrong. Put less bluntly, those that are not doing what I state above and don't begin with a good quality chronograph are hobbiests/fiddlers, not serious tactical/precision riflemen.
     
    #15
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This target velocity must be achieved with the correct powder for the case capacity and bullet weight so that the load is a) safe in all weather conditions, and b) is on the fat part of the pressure curve, so that the load does not fall off the bottom in cold conditions or shoot up the side in hot conditions. This is both a safety issue and an expected performance of the round issue.</div></div>

    I've wondered about this. When loading my rifle I was looking for a speed of 2650 for my 175 SMK's on my 308. I was able to get there with 45.5gn of Varget with an average of 2648 from the crono. This is a lot more than what the books recommend and what others have used to get the same velocity.

    I've wondered about safe pressure at higher altitudes since I'm fairly close to sea level and weather conditions. Where would you find the information mentioned?
     
    #16
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    The 308 has the 1889 7.65x53mm Mauser case head built with a large Boxer primer pocket.

    That means it is good for 65kpsi without the primer pocket getting loose.
    It is registered at SAAMI for 60 kpsi.

    The Lapua 308 brass made with a small Boxer primer pocket can go to ~ 85 kpsi before the CCI450 magnum small rifle primer will pierce. The primer pocket will not get loose. It is a different limitation.

    If you look on Quickload what you can get out of a 308 with 65 kpsi vs 85 kpsi, it is no big deal.

    It is not like 45 kpsi instead of 15 kpsi in 32 S&W Long. That is an improvement.
     
    #17
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowr1der</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load for the best accuracy and I don't worry about velocity. </div></div>

    If you are shooting 100 yds, then no problem. When you are shooting 800 yds, you cannot be slow or you will not hit the target. The wind will blow your projectile around like a leaf.
     
    #21
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    Thank you everyone for your helpful responses. I see now, and knew, it all depends on what you are shooting for, no pun intended.

    As for myself, I have no fancy equipment other than a computer and a program. My goals seem to have been on par according to replies. I use my rifles to hunt 600 yards and closer. I've never shot any matches, nor do I ever plan to. I do like to watch them. Talking with the shooters, everyone has one thing in common and that is to hit that target at any distance.


    I just used books and nowadays a Sierra loading program. I still keep the books, but I made sure when I ordered my rifle, that it matched the length and twist rate similar to what was in the program. That way, I would be close to the figures listed.

    Once again, I do thank everyone for their knowledge and input. I came to this site for your knowledge and there truly is a wealth here. Although, now this gives me more to think about. Maybe a chrono wouldn't be a bad investment and maybe I should try to shoot a little further just for sport.

    Greg L- +1 on your thinking. That's what I think i've been doing all these years, I just didn't know it.

    Thanks again everyone and thank you for sharing you knowledge.
     
    #22
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coues7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Long before chrono's came along people were still betting amazing accuracy. Personally I thing Greg L. is spot on. </div></div>
    RobinsBallisticPendulum.png


    This pendulum chronograph was invented in 1742
     
    #24
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    With the 308, I was running 45.2 gr of Varget with a 178 A-Max in my 22" 308, my chrono was saying around 2680 FPS.

    With a 175 it was right at 2700 FPS.

    My accuracy node was right at 45 gr of Varget, but I was able to still get great accuracy and a little more velocity. For me it was perfect because shooting steel matches from 300-1200 yards I needed all the help I could get.

    I always try to figure out what the purpose of the rifle is and load for that obviously.

    Mark
     
    #25
    Re: pushing your loads to it's full potential

    to me it depends on the use of the rifle.


    i have a target only rifle in 260 that i load strictly for low deviation and small groups. im shooting known distances at targets with that rifle.

    i have a hunting rifle in 260 aswell. @ 200 yds i had a group on 1 inch @2720fps with 18fps deviation in a 10rd string.

    i also havea load that shoots a 1.5 inch group at the same range, deviation is the same but it is going 2770fps. i use the 2770fps load for that rifle because if i error in range estimation i think the few few will help. i could be wrong
     
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