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Question about .308 velocities?

UCChris

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 9, 2014
134
4
Utah, USA
Quick question for you guys. Is there any way to safely get a 210 grain Berger VLD Hunting to hit 2600 fps in an 18" .308 barrel? The barrel is 1:10" twist so, according the calculator I used, it is plenty stabilized; even at 2000 fps. But I'd like to get 2600 if possible. Thanks!
 
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IME: Not from an 18" barrel.

I was able to get that with 208AMAX's from a 26" barrel, loaded long (not mag length) in a long throat chamber.
 
Hmmm, okay. What do you think the maximum weight of bullet I can have to get 2600 fps in an 18" barrel?

Thanks again!
 
I'd say no. Not safely, at least, but in today's world, anything's possible on the internet.

What are you doing with 210gr hunting bullets, BTW?

Chris
 
I was just looking at getting the most dropping power from 300-500 meters out of my 1:10", but I was just crunching some numbers and, if I can hit 2600 fps, the 168gr Berger VLD Classics are the better option.
 
Agree with ChrisGarrett, when you safely, to be clear, you mean at or below SAAMI established safe chamber pressures (I hope)? The answer is NO.
I'm guessing you could get close , near 2600 with a 150 gr, but to have room to develop a load, etc., some where around the 125 grain weight class, will get you there. BTW Nosler's 125 BT, while not a 1000 yard bullet, is a fantastic bullet in a 308-accurate and hard hitting, if you're planning to do some hunting soon.
 
Yes PP2, I intend to stay safely below SAMMI pressures.

Basically, I want a bullet with a BC of .4, preferably .45, or greater going at least 2600 fps out of my 18" barrel. Possible?
 
Im currently getting velocities in the 2450-2490 fps range with 175smk and 44.2gr Varget or 43.8gr 4064 out of a POF P308 14.5" 1:10 barrel.
 
What about a 210gr going 2200 fps? Is that possible. What I'm trying to do is to see how far out I can get 1500 FPE for elk. A 210 going at 2200 will let me go out to 300 meters before going under 1500 fpe.

What kind of 18" barrel? Factory, Custom

You need mag length or single feed?

How long is the chamber throat?

Factory Ruger American Predator

Need mag length. Thinking 2.6" COAL to start with. Unless that's too short?

Im currently getting velocities in the 2450-2490 fps range with 175smk and 44.2gr Varget or 43.8gr 4064 out of a POF P308 14.5" 1:10 barrel.

That is promising! With an 18" barrel those velocities should be 2550-2590 (conservative estimate). Maybe a 210 grain at 2200 isn't completely impossible.
 
Yea loads are on the hotter side but is very accurate. I am getting similar velocity with 43.8gr 4064 and the 178 amax. All loads are with CCI BR2 primers and 1xLC brass.
 
Why are you locked into the Berger 210gr?

Shoot a lighter (~165gr) monolitic solid bullet (Barnes, etc) at about 2600-2700 and you will get excellent penetration and weight retention.
 
Why are you locked into the Berger 210gr?

Shoot a lighter (~165gr) monolitic solid bullet (Barnes, etc) at about 2600-2700 and you will get excellent penetration and weight retention.

Because, according to my ballistics calculator, the 210 retains more energy downrange, even at low muzzle velocity, than a 155 grain Berger, for example. The 168 grain at 2600 is a fantastic compromise, but can a 168 hit 2600 in a short 18" barrel?
 
Because, according to my ballistics calculator, the 210 retains more energy downrange, even at low muzzle velocity, than a 155 grain Berger, for example. The 168 grain at 2600 is a fantastic compromise, but can a 168 hit 2600 in a short 18" barrel?

Using Winchester brass, careful load development and if you have a fast barrel, you might just make it. I get 2680fps with 178's from a 22" barrel, so what you seek with 165-168's is definitely in the realm of reality.

BTW a monolitic 165gr will most likely out penetrate a conventional 210gr.
 
I think the 168amax would work out to 300 with 1500fpe and I'm pretty sure you can get over 2600 in 18". According to my crappy prochrono I was getting up 175 SMKs up around 2550fps in my 16" gas gun this weekend, with 43.9 varget (tula primers and 2.81 COAL). I'm no expert but 2.6 COAL seems really short for what you're trying to do and I'm not sure what advantage there would be in making them that short. what powders do you have access to?

Not sure if 2200fps is enough for the 210. On another thread a user named bmaconaghy was plotting out stability graphs for 220s, I was too dense to comprehend them and the numbers didn't work out for me but maybe you can use his info in your evaluation of the 210s: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-rifles/262760-stabilizing-308-220-grain.html
 
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Pick the right bullet for expansion at your expected velocity. Keep in mind that the .458 magnum muzzle vel. is only 2200fps, but it's a sledgehammer! You also need to know the trajectory of your chosen round and keep your shots within that range.
 
Pick the right bullet for expansion at your expected velocity. Keep in mind that the .458 magnum muzzle vel. is only 2200fps, but it's a sledgehammer! You also need to know the trajectory of your chosen round and keep your shots within that range.

The VLD's expansion minimum is 1800 fps. So, 450 yards maximum with a 168gr @ 2600 fps.
 
consulting a reloading book would be your first step. Consider that most use a 24" barrel and you need to subtract 150-200 FPS at least when going from 24" to a 18". In reality you will likely loose more. Consider that M118 is clocking at 2600 from a 24 or 26" barrel....
 
No. Settle on a different bullet. Accuracy over ballistics. Every time. Keep it real.
 
Okay, so I've resigned to the fact that I'm not going to get a reliable 1000 meter bullet out of here.

So velocity is not a huge issue any more. In reality, my longest shots are only 800 meters or so, with 90% being 300 meters or under. So, a 210/175/168/155 will all go out to 500 meters no problem. So should I just choose the bullet with the most energy at that range?
 
i read a story from some guys hunting in africa with 30-06s they were having a lot of run aways shooting the 220 round nose bullets. they switched to 165s and started having more clean kills. my reasoning for this would be the extra velocity causes more cavitation and a wider wound channel. now we have 168 grain bullets that will retain their weight and penetrate like 220 round nose. so in my opinion 168-180 is the best weight hunting bullet for the small 30s. for a little perspective on what you want to do i shoot a 210 bergers 2700 fps out of a 26" 300wm with 70 g of powder. the 308 was not made to make 300wm numbers it will kill your brass barrel and action much faster trying to.
 
Thanks for the info corndog. I have dialed down my expectations now. Just hoping for deer size lethality out to 500-600 meters. I think those 168's are going to be the ticket.

You said 70 grains of powder? Isn't that, like, way high?
 
Thanks for the info corndog. I have dialed down my expectations now. Just hoping for deer size lethality out to 500-600 meters. I think those 168's are going to be the ticket.

You said 70 grains of powder? Isn't that, like, way high?
He's talking .300 win mag, not .308 win. He was just saying not to try to get .300WM performance out of a .308W, it's not what the cartridge was built for.
 
Chris,

Your approach is all wrong. Energy in itself does not kill an animal, neither does a bullet's "Knock-down power", expressed in FPE. Shot placement and velocities high enough to produce reliable expansion at your maximum range is what matters. Shooting any animal in the leg with any bullet will not result in a kill, but placing same bullet in the proper place (head, and heart/lung) will result in clean kills every time.

You've mentioned Berger bullets, VLDs specifically. Those are great hunting bullets, however, they have a minimum expansion velocity of 1,800fps. That velocity determines the maximum distance you can expect to get reliable, clean kills, assume proper shot placement.

You can/will be able to get 168 VLDs up to 2,700ft/s through your 18" barrel, although your accuracy node may be a little slower or faster...you have to work up a load for your rifle.

Also note that the Berger VLDs tend to be very picky about seating depth. They like to be either 0.010" jammed into the lands or about .035" jumped to the lands...for me, they've produced crappy groups (1.0" to 1.5") out side of this narrow window.

In order to stretch your range a bit, you could also consider the Hornady AMAX...they have a much lower expansion velocity (probably in the 1,300 - 1,500 ft/s range) and are much less picky about seating depth.

P.S. Please drop the "meters" crap. You are an american, shooting in the states, with ranges, equipment and optics mostly calibrated and denoted in yards, feet, & inches...saying "i shot at 300meters (328.2yards) is douchy.
 
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Factory Ruger American Predator

SO a hunting rifle

IMHO pick out a good hunting bullet like a nosler partition in 150-165 grains, make an accurate hand load and just use it. You should be able to get 2650-2750 which is what people were getting with 30-06s back in the day and they killed elk and moose just fine with them.
 
Chris,

Your approach is all wrong. Energy in itself does not kill an animal, neither does a bullet's "Knock-down power", expressed in FPE. Shot placement and velocities high enough to produce reliable expansion at your maximum range is what matters. Shooting any animal in the leg with any bullet will not result in a kill, but placing same bullet in the proper place (head, and heart/lung) will result in clean kills every time.

You've mentioned Berger bullets, VLDs specifically. Those are great hunting bullets, however, they have a minimum expansion velocity of 1,800fps. That velocity determines the maximum distance you can expect to get reliable, clean kills, assume proper shot placement.

You can/will be able to get 168 VLDs up to 2,700ft/s through your 18" barrel, although your accuracy node may be a little slower or faster...you have to work up a load for your rifle.

Also note that the Berger VLDs tend to be very picky about seating depth. They like to be either 0.010" jammed into the lands or about .035" jumped to the lands...for me, they've produced crappy groups (1.0" to 1.5") out side of this narrow window.

In order to stretch your range a bit, you could also consider the Hornady AMAX...they have a much lower expansion velocity (probably in the 1,300 - 1,500 ft/s range) and are much less picky about seating depth.

P.S. Please drop the "meters" crap. You are an american, shooting in the states, with ranges, equipment and optics mostly calibrated and denoted in yards, feet, & inches...saying "i shot at 300meters (328.2yards) is douchy.

Thanks for the great information! I come from a high powered airgun hunting background, so maximum FPE is everything to me. I realize shot placement is critical (as it is with "wimpy" pellet guns) so I will keep that in mind.

I can't drop the meters "crap". I was raised by a father who was raised by a European. So I think of speed in MPH, distance in meters, height in feet, length in yards, and small measurable distances in mm/cm. It's all whacked up here in my brain...

Plus I shoot a Mil/Mil so meters is easier for that.
 
No worries Chris.

I'm an engineer, so it irks me when ppl on shooting forums use "meters" and "yards" interchangeably...in the real world, the differences are huge and the consequences of mixing units can be dire.

Back on point, what powders & bullets do you have available? I can offer some load suggestions if I've used same powder...
 
I don't mind meters and yards being used interchangeably in rough estimates, but when shooting a gun...whole 'nother story.

I have IMR4350, IMR4381, Varget, and H414 available to me. Hornady and Nosler bullets are the easiest to find around here.
 
Chris,

Try my favorite hunting/match load:

178Hornady AMAX
44.4gr Varget
LC or Win Bras
Win Large Rifle Primer
2.80" COAL

That load absolutely hammers and is responsible for a lot of dead pigs, deer, sheep, paper, and personal best 600yard match scores.

I've used said load in my M1A & 308ARs...no issues. One of these days, i'll get around to chronoing it.

Your other powders, IMR-4831 & H414 & IMR-4350 are amazing in the 30-06 (but too slow in .308)...and you'll find it a lot easier/safer getting your 210gr Berger at 2700ft/s out of an '-06 with the 4831 powder.
 
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Chris,

Try my favorite hunting/match load:

178Hornady AMAX
44.4gr Varget
LC or Win Bras
Win Large Rifle Primer
2.80" COAL

That load absolutely hammers and is responsible for a lot of dead pigs, deer, sheep, paper, and personal best 600yard match scores.

I've used said load in my M1A & 308ARs...no issues. One of these days, i'll get around to chronoing it.

Your other powders, IMR-4831 & H414 & IMR-4350 are amazing in the 30-06 (but too slow in .308)...and you'll find it a lot easier/safer getting your 210gr Berger at 2700ft/s out of an '-06 with the 4831 powder.

That's a hot load. Hornady 8th edition has 43.2 in the red. Not denying it works for you but I haven't ran my 168grain AMAX that hot. I thought I was seeing pressure signs at 43gr with 168s. Lot to lot variance? How long has that been your go to?
 
Im running 175smk with 44.3gr shooting under .5". Shot 200rds this past weekend making repeated hits on 12" steel at 800 and going at 1000.

Lyman 49th edition has max at 45.1gr
 
SVX,

Dont you know Hornady, Sierra (and all bullet manufacturers) "lawyer down" their load data?

I prefer to get my load data from two(2) sources:
1. Powder manufacturer (and lyman reloading manuals)
2. My Rifle(s).

They tell me what a "hot" load is, what an accurate load is, etc.

Also, perform a google search of 175smk/178AMAX and varget...you'll see that 44.2-44.4 is an accuracy node in many rifles.