Advanced Marksmanship Question on front sight focus..

[BigBrother]

So, I have studied and applied the fundamentals of marksmanship for about two seasons worth of shooting competition and can very much attest to their value. There's just something I can't shake about front sight focus..

I have seen first hand how vital it is to focus on the front sight at the time of trigger pull- both in rifles and pistol. What's confusing to me is how you would do so without losing situational awareness in an actual combat or high-stress situation.

In a competition or relaxed setting, I have found, no big surprise, that when I really focus on the tip of my front sight post, and not on the target, things settle down, it's easier to make the shot, and I score much better. But I just cannot see this being workable in a quick-fire situation.

I always imagine a scenario where an enemy target would be running across my field of view quickly and I had to pull up and fire, or engage three targets in rapid succession. In each instance, shifting focus to front sight, making the shot, then focusing back to distant targets for sight acquisition and back to front sight again seems like it loses vital milliseconds, and takes away from peripheral awareness and vision. Not to mention the fact that since you're shooting at a blur, if the blur moves or gets under cover, you can't spot it nearly as easily.

Most of this would be even more exacerbated in a pistol situation- three targets, you're basically shifting your vision six times, and at such close distances the blurring around you really does have an effect.

The only thing I can think of is that with enough practice you just get fast enough at this (?)

I dunno- it seems weird, almost like you have to blur your eyes to do well. I always instinctively want to focus on the targets, and doing otherwise seems unnatural, but I have obviously seen the value of front sight focus. Is it a tradeoff? Thoughts?

 

[DMS]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Bigbrother:
You have hit on why so many of the optical sights are moving onto the battlefield. They take out the need to focus on one object (front sight) while allowing another to be out of focus (target).
I DO NOT LIKE THAT MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE EQUIPMENT ADVANCMENTS ARE A SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

I think that the dot sight is a genuine improvement when it comes to accelerated target acquisition and sight picture assembly. Aligning four aspects (pupil, rear sight, front sight, POA) is a lot more distracting from situational awareness than is simply superimposing a dot over a POA. In demanding moments of stress I think it's a shot-maker, a force multiplier, and possibly even a life saver.

While I agree that equipment advancements are no substitute for marksmanship skill, I feel equally that when an advantage is real, it is counterintuitive to reject it for any reasons, and especially for reasons of purism. You use what works, and as long as it is not to the detriment of acquiring and maintaining marksmanship skill, it adds to the process, rather than detracting from it.

Greg

 

[duaneb]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Greg, extreemly well put. I had been trying to put together an answer for him yesterday and am glad I waited. You are right on....Thanks

 

[BigBrother]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Guys, thanks for the responses. I think you've answered about 50% of what I was looking for, though.

You have definitely backed up what I thought- that there is some disadvantage to it. Hence, optical sights are really coming into play.

But what I was really interested in was *how* it's done in an actual tense/quick situation, hopefully by some Marines on here. Let me explain- I see footage like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJyLmsuoG8Q

(Marine pistol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDwbUXX226E

(Marine rifle)

And there's no *way* that BRASS-F is being correctly applied. Now, I know those targets are much closer, but I imagine the same relative rate of fire being used at further distances during a firefight. I'm trying to figure out what approach is being used.

All I'm familiar with, personally, is nice, controlled fire like this Marine qual'ing here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_0H9093FcU

Sure, BRASS-F is easy under those conditions. But how does it all change (and does all of it change?) when the SHTF and you need to put out lead, quickly.

Optical sights are great, but our Marines have been doing it without them for quite some time before! Just trying to figure out how it all compresses when you need to keep your speed and awareness in *addition* to precision.

Thanks.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

As I suggest, you use what works <span style="font-style: italic">for you</span>. I don't use BRASS or any other mnemonic per se. I just start with position, move to NPA, get breathing under control (a lot harder for me with diminishest cardio capacity), and then finalize the shot.

Maybe we're just sayng the same thing with different words. My point is that if I allow myself to become a slave to habit, I'm doing it by rote, rather than with conscious deliberation.

Greg

 

[jwaj]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

There's no substitute for practical application. That is, shooting thousands of rounds during proper training exercises and in turn applying it on the job(real world). That's why professionals make it look so easy.

Regarding the use of optics, proper understanding and training of the basics has to occur regardless of equipment, as mentioned above, there's no shortcuts there.

As with most physical endeavors, the more you apply the less brain power is involved in the process, thus increased situational awareness. I.E. your brain isn't overloaded with threat detection/perception, decision to do x, sight alignment, trigger control,etc.

Basically, I agree with Greg. Use what works for you and practice, practice, practice.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Okay, all useful stuff, but I think I need to re-phrase the question to get what I'm after:

Any servicemen here (Corps, Army), who have been in actual, quick-fire combat engagements at appreciable distances (not CQB)- were you focusing on front sight when firing or not? Please specify pistol or rifle.

Thanks!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Focusing on the front sight is important to good shooting. It is what it is, a means to recognize exactly where the gun is pointed. Whether you have the opportunity or not to dress-up the sight picture for best results is going to always be subject to the situation.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that the dot sight is a genuine improvement when it comes to accelerated target acquisition and sight picture assembly. Aligning four aspects (pupil, rear sight, front sight, POA) is a lot more distracting from situational awareness than is simply superimposing a dot over a POA. In demanding moments of stress I think it's a shot-maker, a force multiplier, and possibly even a life saver.

While I agree that equipment advancements are no substitute for marksmanship skill, I feel equally that when an advantage is real, it is counterintuitive to reject it for any reasons, and especially for reasons of purism. You use what works, and as long as it is not to the detriment of acquiring and maintaining marksmanship skill, it adds to the process, rather than detracting from it.

Greg </div></div>

well put greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

I was involved in my fair share of ambush/firefights in 'Nam.

The psychology of winning a firefight was put to us as, "He who shoots more, and sooner, gets to laugh over the dead guys".

Most of the time, our opponents were firing from cover and concealment and did not present a clearly visible target. It was not unusual for over a thousand rounds to be expended by the combined forces in under a minute. It was known (along with other instances) as 'the mad minute'.

I owe my life to their ignorance of the marksmanship basics, the intrinsic inaccuracy of Sov Bloc Assault Weapons, and also to my own willingness to abandon precision and follow gut instinct. My flak gear made its own unique contribution as well.

Front sights were the last thing on my mind. Often, I did a lot of my firing from the hip. What has since become known as the tactical reload was uppermost.

I would really have loved to have had a dot sight back in those days, but I also suspect that pausing to use it properly might have impaired my writing ability these days, due to a certain degree of being dead.

Combat is not like anything you can imagine in advance.

The only truly effective aspect of training is the muscle memory and instinctual response it imparts.

You cannot, in any way, relate to what you will do during or after an intense meeting engagement. It comes with no warning, even when you are expecting it to occur imminently. You cannot plan your responses in advance. You will either learn fast, or your replacement will get his chance to try. War is abrupt, impersonal, harsh beyond understanding, and outcomes do not follow any rules of fairness or logical causality. War is war, and nothing else is like it.

Greg

 

[doc76251]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Greg speaks well and wisely from hard won experience. Personaly I cannot recall a front sight picture, or for that matter any sight picture at all in "Oh $h!t" moments. More deliberate shots from cover/concelement I can. I think repitition, saturation of fundamentals and muscle memory plaid a large part in why I'm still here. On pistols I don't think I've ever seen the gun or the sights until after the shooting was done.

.02 for the pot

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Indeed; decades afterward, when I took up pistol marksmanship seriously, I discovered that my instinctive, hand/eye coordinated, no sights marksmanship was as accurate and faster at short distances than deliberate aimed marksmanship. That's a counterintuitive, and perhaps scary, insight to gain about oneself.

As I've owned no handguns for the past decade, since moving to NY, it's yet another useless (maybe) bit of personal trivia that returns periodically to hauntingly puzzle my aging thought processes.

Rifles are occupation enough, in my advancing dotage.

Greg

 

[Lindy]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Al Nyhus noted "The accuracy you need is determined by the size of your target."

I would say, "the <span style="font-style: italic">relative</span> size of your target."

If a pistol is employed to shoot a human-sized target at 4 feet, I won't even extend the pistol. I'll shoot from the retention position, with the gun registered against the side of my chest.

At 5 yards, I'll be point shooting with the gun extended in front of me, but looking over the top of the gun, not lining up the sights.

If I need to make a head shot at 15 yards, I'm sure going to be lining up the sights.

However, I shoot enough - and dry-fire enough - to not have to think about those decisions, because in a real fight there is no time.

People who don't shoot much are probably better off to use the sights all the time - which is why shooting schools generally teach only the use of sights to beginning students. The reason is that having two options for a given technique adds about 15 percent to the time it takes to execute the technique.

If you're on the edge, you don't want to take the time to consider options.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Al Nyhus noted "The accuracy you need is determined by the size of your target."

I would say, "the <span style="font-style: italic">relative</span> size of your target."

If a pistol is employed to shoot a human-sized target at 4 feet, I won't even extend the pistol. I'll shoot from the retention position, with the gun registered against the side of my chest.

At 5 yards, I'll be point shooting with the gun extended in front of me, but looking over the top of the gun, not lining up the sights.

If I need to make a head shot at 15 yards, I'm sure going to be lining up the sights.

<span style="font-weight: bold">However, I shoot enough - and dry-fire enough - to not have to think about those decisions, because in a real fight there is no time.</span>
People who don't shoot much are probably better off to use the sights all the time - which is why shooting schools generally teach only the use of sights to beginning students. The reason is that having two options for a given technique adds about 15 percent to the time it takes to execute the technique.

If you're on the edge, you don't want to take the time to consider options.
</div></div>

Well said Lindy.

I like the way Plaxco's Shooting Principles put it, specifically......

<span style="font-style: italic">Learn what is an acceptable sight picture, and trigger control for the required shot </span>

Concerning your awareness before, during and after the shot it really comes down to good solid training. Scanning and good breathing, even on the square range needs to be practiced. Knowing when to and where to focus our attention is also key. This is where force on force training really pays off. Force on force is something very few people do but it allows us to put into practice all those skills we learn during DT, dry practice, and range work. I am lucky, I have crazy friends and co-workers who don't mind pain to get better.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

Lindy/bravo;

Excellent posts.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on front sight focus..


The bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed. Any way a shooter can come to understand exactly where the barrel is pointed and control such a condition until recoil subsides will get the desired result, bullets going where aimed.

 

[Arch]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- and dry-fire enough - </div></div>
I am always glad when someone adds this. There is a lot of practice that can be done in the garage on a rainy day.

 

[eric long]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

I have no combat experience, but just did some force on force last weekend. It is as close to real as we will probably get, and I do not remember seeing my sights, the pistol was on the bad guy though.

 

[Northrop]

Re: Question on front sight focus..

TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN, Proper IA (Immediate Action) Drills..... Lots of Training