Advanced Marksmanship Question on prone shooting position

[jsali]

For those who are more educated/experienced on the subject than I here's the problem.

I have traditionally (and been taught) to shoot supported prone with my shooting side (right) leg cocked up a bit to relieve pressure on the chest and reduce the effect of heart beat etc... To get comfortable and a NPA The rifle points a little to left of center line. Now I get plenty good accuracy when I shoot prone however when the rifle recoils it always ends up pointing a little left of POA (not enough to lose the target out of the scope but enough let's say 4-6 MOA). I have tried shifting my alignment with the rifle every which way and can never seem to overcome this problem.

Now I've been experimenting with different positions lately for shits and giggles and have found that when I shoot prone with both legs straight and toes out that the rifle crosshairs barely come off target at all (< 1 MOA). However I am definately more aware of my heartbeat but I'd say it effects my POA by < .1 MOA. Accuracy doesn't seem to be effected much if any other than a different POI.

Any opinions or similar experiences? How does everyone else position themselves?

-John

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

i'm a rightie.....so to get some good purchase on stability i try to find a way to dig in my LEFT booted toe (heel up)....but my big belly tends to lift my chest enough to abate any serious heartbeat/reticle issues....(this with cuff sling or leather)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Rifles and bodies constitute a single system, relatively unique for each shooter, but also relatively similar for discussions' sake. Individual NPA body configuration and response to recoil will differ.

This is less about what's 'right' and more about what works for you. Try and sort out the relative errors.

Competitive shooters used to shoot supine. Things change, and the feline may be defurred in many different manners.

There are ways to lock in a position so the recoil disturbs the scope image practically not at all. You may want to review my technique as described in another topic on this forum about shooting from the bench. This method also works in Prone with either the rest or bipod.

Greg

 

[buckythebrewer]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Just a thought.
Have you tried different tension to the shoulder and grip?
I have found a medium tension against my shoulder keeps things well under control with my 14.5 lbs ar15.I don't have any luck if I hold to firm,But I also tend to lose repeatability if I hold things to lightly.
I used to use a very light hold but found it was hard to repeat my shots consistently.I use my left hand to lightly hold the Butt,pinch sandbag,or hold under grip.
I find holding against the shoulder a little keeps things right on for me and the way my rifle is setup.
Before the slight pressure against the shoulder,My rifle would tend to torque and upset my bipod a little when firing.

Shooting free recoil has been full time work whenever I have tried it.I have got a few nice groups from shooting free recoil off sandbags,But I can't seem to keep things consistent 100% of the time.Especially while not having a bench to shoot from

.

I would try a light grip ,and then compare to medium and firm and see what happens under fire.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

This business of develping a hold is part of why a shooter should limit the number of firearms they try to master. Familiarity with that firearm, in all its aspects, is what leads to precision with that firearm.

Greg

 

[Z06er]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

High prone vs low prone. Both have their repsective pros and cons. I would suggest utilizing the one which is most comfortable and yields consistent high results.

Good luck!

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Its hard to get one into a position or examine one's position without watching that individual shoot.

My advise is to get with your states NG Marksmanship unit, or State CMP Club Team Coach and have them work with you with your positions.

When I was coaching (AK NG Rifle Team) and ran across a position problem I'd start out watching the individual shoot. Seeing if its the position or other problems. Then go from there. There is no one set position because all people are differant. But I believe there is a position for everyone, just got to find someone to help you find it.

JMHO

 

[longrange1947]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

We teach the leg up position for several reasons, one of which is that we must stay in position for an extended period and flat on your belly will kill you after two or three hours. Another is what you are experiencing with pulse, and breath.

That said, you must remember that to be consistent you must adapt the position, within reason, to your body and not your body to some "ideal" position. The prone sling supported is a position that once the shooter has found his ideal position is so steady that he will try to teach that position as the "only true way". This can be tot he detriment of someone with a totally different body and flexibility then the teacher/instructor.

All that said, I have shot with my leg cocked for over twenty years and have not had the problem you describe unless I was slightly off my NPA. Remember, if you move your non firing hand at all to get on target then you are not on your NPA. I am not saying this is your problem, only that it is a possibility. As stated above by KraigWY, without seeing you shoot, it is difficult to diagnose the reasons.

I know a bunch of top shooters that lie flat on their belly and shoot very well. I am just not one of them.

 

[Z06er]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

KraigWy and longerange1947 excellant posts!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Johnny5,

A student new to prone with sling will usually steer the rifle with the non-firing arm, rather than adjust the body for a good NPA which intersects the target. Experienced shooters do this too, sometimes. In fact, just yesterday, I shot a 9 at 9 o'clock that had nothing to do with wind, just me being too lazy to re-build my position before that shot, and check for NPA.

As others have alluded, a good prone sling supported position will be muscularly relaxed, and when it's right, the shooter could be there all day with it, that's to say if the gun's stock fits the shooter. Even the best prone position on a stock with a comb that's too low or high, or a pull too long or short can be a source of tension which prevents the desired condition, no matter what coaching is available.

Since the M16 style rifle is so ergonomic for most, it's a good rifle to use while developing prone skill.

For the rifle you're now using in prone with sling, be sure, once you're satisfied with your sight picture/aim, that you close your eyes and "feel" for muscular relaxation. Then, upon opening the eyes, perhaps, discovering that you no longer are on the target, take the time to re-build NPA, rather than steer the rifle with the non-firing hand, as appears you may be doing. Remember, any muscular tension will bring the muzzle to a place other than where it should be upon bullet exit if NPA is not perfect.

BTW, adjusting NPA in prone means moving your butt, forward, back, left and right while the non-firing elbow serves as a pivot point which should remain in place during the entire string of fire.

 

[jsali]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

I may very well be "steering with the non-firing hand" I have been making a concious effort not to, but I'll double check and see. Will report back after a nother range session. Just out of town for a few days, will hit the range later this week. Thanks for all the responses.

-John

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange1947</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That said, you must remember that to be consistent you must adapt the position, within reason, to your body and not your body to some "ideal" position. The prone sling supported is a position that once the shooter has found his ideal position is so steady that he will try to teach that position as the "only true way". This can be tot he detriment of someone with a totally different body and flexibility then the teacher/instructor.</div></div>

Amen!!!

I tried the 'standard' HP prone position for years and was in absolute misery... couldn't hardly wait for a 20rd string to be over. Eventually I gave up on it, and started over from scratch w/ the help of 'Ways of the Rifle', and found a very comfortable position that I can stay in, and actually enjoy the sport while I'm at it. It may not look like everybody else's position, but most people out there ain't built like me either!

Cheers,

Monte

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Eventually I gave up on it, and started over from scratch w/ the help of 'Ways of the Rifle', and found a very comfortable position that I can stay in, and actually enjoy the sport while I'm at it. [/quote]


Sometimes, while coaching shooters new to a position, I'll just keep my mouth shut no matter what the position looks like to me, if the shooter's results indicate he's getting the job done.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have traditionally (and been taught) to shoot supported prone with my shooting side (right) leg cocked up a bit to relieve pressure on the chest and reduce the effect of heart beat etc...</div></div>

Sounds like a long explanation to the answer, "My little green Army men did it, so that what I do.

Only problem nobody ever told the enforcers of the leg up crowd those Army men were crawling, not engaging in marksmanship exercises.

You need to be straight behind the rifle for a host of reasons easier to show than explain in writing.

Weapon pointed to the target, body pointed to the weapon.

As well you apply a bit of forward pressure with the toes before dropping and relaxing your lower body. It's about management recoil and if you cock your body an anyway you give the recoil some place other than straight back to gone, which in turn throws the rifle off after the shot.

 

[ah6oy]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Dude you should have the natural aim point on target which doesn't include playing aim. Force of pulling back should be concentrated on (to always be the same) and body position used for aiming the rifle is the way I do it. Slide down for up aiming and slide yourself forward for aiming down. Left, right up and down can be found leaning into and away from the rifle but just make sure you dont start injectiing your shoulders and forward into the picture or your aim is going to suffer. But what do I know. I'm just a a a uh I forget

Just try droppng in on a NRA rifle competition. Watch the guys shooting 500 or 600 with iron sights. If you can find a 1000 competition where the guys are firing iron sights you'll get an even better picture of the forward part of the body being locked down is the most important part. Can't teach an old dog new tricks but you will probably discover there is a totally different game out there.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

I steer (aim) with my butt. NPA, focus on front sight, and trigger control are keys to success; plus, recognition for consistency of position: elbows, non-firing hand, butt-to-shoulder, and stock-weld, I have found to be important.

Yesterday, practicing on the MR-31 target, using a 53 grain flat based bullet over 25 grains of H335 primed with WSR primers, I noticed that, even with very little recoil, NPA was still important. When I re-built my position with each shot, being sure not to move my pivot elbow, I had no trouble keeping my shots in the X-ring; however, when NPA went unchecked 9's were likely. After recognizing I had to work for each X-ring hit, I managed a 20 X clean. Too bad it was just practice.

 

[buckythebrewer]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This business of develping a hold is part of why a shooter should limit the number of firearms they try to master. Familiarity with that firearm, in all its aspects, is what leads to precision with that firearm.

Greg </div></div>
I find that to be 100% correct for me.
I have learned alot from my rifle(ar15).
I spend all my time(when I can) shooting + reloading with that rifle.I grow more and more comfortable with every shot

.

There are alot of little things that can be overlooked if your always switching around rifles imo(when were speaking of absolute precision anyways).

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

All,

Building a prone sling supported position, to support sight alignment and trigger control, I'm, mostly, thinking about NPA, muscular relaxation, and bone/sling support. The word "balance", and thoughts about placement of the non-firing hand just don't come up (pun not intended). The non-firing elbow is as close to being under the hand-guard as possible to provide muscular relaxation, letting bones do the work. And, the position of the non-firing hand on the hand-guard is pretty much anywhere it needs to be to get sight elevation on target in conjunction with a properly adjusted sling and butt to shoulder.

There are 5 factors of a steady position including: elbow placement, butt to shoulder, non-firing hand, stock-weld, and grip. Consistent contact with the rifle is what is desired for an identical recoil pattern to assure accuracy; and, when muscular relaxation is present, the consistency desired is better understood, or felt.

Although the elements and factors of a steady position are facts, physical stature will always dictate how a shooter will approach these concepts, keeping in mind that muscular relaxation is the outcome desired.

The word "balance" is something I think about as my position gets off the ground, like when in the kneeling or standing position, where lack of balance means something less than a steady position.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Charles,
I agree on most points. I'm not saying that this positioning of the firing elbow is the be-all-end-all. However, I suggest everybody give it a try in aiding their position. Do it wrong first, so as to see the outcome. From there, you'll gain understanding of where to place it.

One more thing- relating to the trigger hand. Mess around with length of pull (if you can). Again as above, take it to extremes. When obviously too long, you'll find the pressure on the pistol grip from your hand will be on your finger tips, and (for right hand shooters) will feel the majority of pressure on the pistol grip on the left side of the gun. That means you're pulling the rifle to the right. Conversely, if too short, you'll feel crammed up in the pistol grip. Get it right, and you'll feel the center of rearward pressure at the very front of the pistol grip, and right around the middle joint of your fingers.

Furthermore, I believe there should be rearward pressure from the trigger hand. You should have enough pressure to compress the butt into the shoulder, until it's solid into the shoulder AND there should be no more perceivable rearward compression available. I refer to that as "dynamic stability". "Dynamic" because as the gun recoils, you've already taken up the available compression on the shoulder. It will recoil the same way in the shoulder each time.

Ken J

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Although I was an NRA junior smallbore Expert when I went to Parris Island, nobody had explained the elbow-under-rifle aspect to me. It was a new concept for me when I got to Weapons Training Bn., and a sheer revelation. Until then, a sling had not been part of my shooting regimen, and that also became a solid ally.

The interminable 'snapping in' exercises were instrumental in developing the limb flexibility that made this concept a lot more endurable, but I also found that if I went to sleep on my stomach with my left elbow as high and right under me as possible, the natural stretching made my arm more supple and the prone position even more natural. Took a few nights before I could get to sleep without rolling off the elbow immediately after dozing off, but persistence eventually paid off.

Centering the elbow under the rifle makes a huge difference.

The principle of providing direct bone support, directly centered beneath the rifle, from rifle to ground, is an essential to allowing a completely relaxed NPA. This may seem counterintuitive, because some of the positions will initially appear unnatural. But, with time and practice, they become more natural, and lead to increased relaxation and confidence.

Confidence is another variable we have neglected here.

Confidence alone will not get you into the X-ring on a consistent basis (no single thing will do that), but without it, such endeavors can become futile, too. If you don't believe you can shoot a perfect score, you most likely won't. If you do, it goes a long way toward fulfilling the goal.

Greg

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Based on the answers, most everybody assumed he was shooting NRA prone slung. What if he was shooting off a bipod with scope?

I find his straight body, toes down works best for me off a bipod. The toe curl also helps me maintain a reasonably consistent pressure against the rifle, but as I get moved back with recoil, I have to periodically crawl back to my original position to continue to shoot well. Works better if you do it each shot.

When I was younger and had less gut in the way, I could also shoot the NRA prone slung that way. Except I cocked my right foot toe in, rather than straight or toe out and foot flat.

As I age and grow in the middle, the cocked leg adds some stability to my position.

In NRA prone slung, the elbow either under the rifle or as close as your body will let it get to under the rifle is critical to a straight back and straight up recoil.

Consistent shoulder placement is also critical as is consistent hold pressure of the rifle to the shoulder.

Consistent NPA within your wobble area is also critical. Having your body in the same place each time allows you to do all the above to some degree of consistency.
As you get moved backward under recoil, you must re-build your position each time, same as going through the basic rifle fundamentals with each shot.

John Boyette says "Accuracy is consistency, nothing less" and he is correct.

Ken J, keep posting.

jw

 

[buckythebrewer]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Thanks all for advice.
There are so many tips I have found to be true,And so many I will deffinetly be trying to learn that are new to me,and my lack of experience with proper shooting technic.
For me it is a 14.5lbs AR,scoped on a bipod prone.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Yes, I like the way you put it "try this". That's always good advice, when results arn't coming from other techniques.

 

[Bartdog]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

1 SJ,

I have watched my rifle recoil to the left or right, mainly left, after building a solid position on a correct npa. Your explanation hit home with me, and I will adjust for response at the match this weekend. Sometimes, you just have to hear things the right way, to understand them. At least hard headed shooters like me, anyway. Thanks.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

All,
I was training this morning before work. Got me a 50 meter range in the back yard for shooting smallbore. I've been practicing up for the Champion of Champions match at Ft. Benning next week. For the past several days, I've been having trouble in the "re-set" of my position after each loading. Now, granted, I'm shooting a curved buttplate on my 2013, so this might not apply to all of you. However, get this.
I'd been fighting an applied cant from the butt plate area. When I locked into my position with trigger hand, the gun would "un-cant" a little bit. My shots were sporatic, sometimes throwing 9's without seeing them. Finally, I saw the "un-canting" problem. I took some radius out of the buttplate, which felt strange at first. However, I also found that by reducing the radius (fit around the shoulder), the top of the butt plate didn't force the unnatural cant. Also, upon loading, I felt no slip in the butt plate (no change to the NPA). That's a good thing. So, what does this have to do with the plight of the unwed mother?

Simple - goes back to fundamentals for everybody. If there's a cause for the rifle to not fit the same way every time, or if something is affecting your position to cause inconsistency, fix it. Mess with the variables. Make them definately wrong and see how it affects you. Go in the opposite direction of your first change and see what happens. Find out what makes "it" tick. It's amazing how big that 10 ring can get when you get the combination right.

Ken J

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

As for rebuilding the position after each shot; I am in complete agreement.

My philosophy is built around match shooting, and it simply says, "Each round is a complete match, in and of itself".

What we are doing, in essence, is attempting to link together X number of individual matches into a cohesive match stage. When we combine this with "Accuracy is consistency; nothing less", we begin to see how each and every one of the basic, fundamental checkpoints prior to releasing the sear has a crucial and demanding role in that complex activity we call by the simple term 'good shooting'.

Leave one out, and we end up trying to make a pie by combining apples and pears.

Now I'm not going to try and suggest that a pie made from apples and pears is a bad thing, but I must say; there is something about a perfectly made apple pie that is just so much more satisfying.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

To each his own. Also, I'm not doing much rapid re-engagement these days, so our priorities may differ a bit.

For shooting with the sling, the position of the supporting elbow is critical. If it moves, it needs to get back home before firing again. Same with the feet.

When they are consistent, most of the rest follows naturally.

Greg

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg,
From the standpoint of accuracy and rapid re-engagement, I suggest that "rebuilding" the position each time should be limited. What I'm saying is "Don't come off the gun, don't take the buttplate out of the shoulder". For tactical and match conditions, the gun/shooter system should be set up such that there's no apparent change to the position either after recoil nor reloading. That leads to rapid follow up shots, critical for either mode of shooting.

Some would say that for shooting rimfire, that's easily accomplished, but for the high power guys, you've got to re-set each time. That's hooey. When shooting military bolt-action rapid fire in prone, we don't come off the gun, and we're capable of putting 10 shots in 1 minute at 300 meters inside a 3 1/2 inch circle. Get your position/sling/shoulder right, and you can do it too. </div></div>

A couple of good points you make, however, unless I misread you, you have a much larger experience base to build off than many here.
You can put 10 shots in 1 minute at 300 meters inside a 3 1/2" circle, but how long did it take you to get to that point, how much training, and did you not start with basics, where in the beginning you rebuilt your position until you were solid?

Many here would read your comments and with limited experience, believe they should be able to do it too. Then some of us here, long timers, try to answer their questions about why it's not working for them.
The majority of the time, trying to solve their problems on an internet board, involves prying information out of them, to learn they have no established basic fundamentals, and limited practice time.
They do the best they can with what they have, are 100% good guys who want to learn, and ask honest questions about how to do better.

So, the long timers here, do push a return to basic fundamentals, and what we'd like to hear from you 1SJ, is a short history about how you got to where you are today, and some guidance for less experienced people on how they can get closer to your skill level.
Share with us, thank you.

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Ken J, (aka 1SJ), you didn't ruffle my feathers, good post, great information, and we need this kind of sharing. THANKS.

You don't remember an old goat last name Delk at AMU do you?

jw

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

I have one question, isn't a human heart left of center, so if you roll a touch left lift the right leg aren't you putting your heart in more contact with the ground, and actually putting extra pressure on it?

To each it their own, but anatomically speaking, sounds a bit off.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Mildly confused, but ABSOLUTELY not sporting any ruffled feathers. Like Capt. Bill, I'm just grateful for the additional good info.

Frank; is that my left leg you're pulling, or my right...?

Greg

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Husky,
You're from Opelika! You know Bubba? I don't think he's patroling out there any more, unless on reserve duty. Last time I saw him, he was working at the sniper school on Benning with Jones. I think both of them are now working for another gov't agency. If you see Mike, let him know I said hi. He's one big sumbich.

Ken J

 

[digitalkimchee]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This business of develping a hold is part of why a shooter should limit the number of firearms they try to master. Familiarity with that firearm, in all its aspects, is what leads to precision with that firearm.

Greg</div></div>

Wow. Very well stated. Will definitely keep that in mind.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Lowlight,
Test the roll out with a good scope and witness what you see. There will come a point where you'll see a decrease in heartbeat thru the scope. Slightly different for everybody, but everybody's got a heart..... I've got mine so that with a 36x Leupold 1/8 minute dot, I can hold inside a .22 bullet hole at 50 meters. No kidding. Yes, there's heartbeat, but it does not force me outside the bullet hole.

Ken J

 

[doc76251]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have one question, isn't a human heart left of center, so if you roll a touch left lift the right leg aren't you putting your heart in more contact with the ground, and actually putting extra pressure on it?

To each it their own, but anatomically speaking, sounds a bit off. </div></div>

Anatomically you are correct that the "normal" human heart is biased or rotated to the left. Essentially it is positioned so that it isn't over the major vessels that run along the spine. If it were, it would produce a counter pulse on the vena cava and aorta which wouldn't do good things for circulation. The heart is additionally suspended in a sack (pericardial sac) that keeps its position relatively fixed in the chest even if both lungs are completely deflated. When rolled slightly to the left the heart is actually resting on the left lung but is still in relatively the same location however the lung acts as a dampener. This is also why a half breath is more stable when shooting than a full breath, the lung is not as tense and will not transmit the pulse as well because it’s soft(er).

When flat on your belly the heart is bouncing off the sternum in almost direct contact and being pushed down against it by gravity and the weight of the lungs/spine/back etc. Fortunately the ribcage is semi-floating which dampens the pulse; otherwise we would have developed shooting positions flat on our back.

IMHO the right leg hiked position was developed for prone sling shooting where it is very stable and time tested. The belly position is more suited to un-slung shooting as it places the body squarely behind the rifle which is essentially unattached to the body except at 2 points, the shoulder and the pistol grip. This position controls the recoil force in one direction, straight back into a single point. In slung shooting the rifle is attached to the body in multiple points and recoil force is controlled not only the butt stock but by the whole rifle via the sling, forward hand and rear hand. This also however introduces significantly more variables to the shooting equation which all must be mastered.

.02 for the pot

Cheers, Doc

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Some moderator please make this a sticky...

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Doc, to say that belly flat/straight leg is not suited for slung prone shooting is, well, not a supportable statement if one takes a look at the top level international shooting athletes and their positions.

As one that gets to shoot with and observe world class international shooting athletes (US, AMU, other countries visiting to practice/compete) quite regularly, I can tell you that smallbore prone shooting done by current international athletes strongly favors the straight legged/flat stomach on mat position. Most all of these athletes train physically as well and are quite trim. One can argue that different body types require bent legged, but then take a look at Matt Emmons. He's on the shorter side as far as athletes go, but is fit and trim. He shoots a belly flat, legs spread, high gun prone position. So yes it may apply for some body types, but it is not a univeral truism for all shorter prone shooters with a sling or without.

I also get to coach your guy,gal, or junior-off-the-street at our Highpower clinics. I"ll coach straight legged if possible, but often have to take them to bent leg for one reason - a big belly.

Vertical sight/crosshair movement is essential in order to cut down on "corner shots". Corner shots make the target effectively smaller; that is, the same amount of vertical error combined with a horizontal component puts the shot in a lower scoring ring than it would have with just the vertical component.

Assuming one does not have a gut, straight legged/flat belly/straighter body greatly helps getting a vertical barrel movement as well helps the shooter square his shoulders up to the rifle. I see shooters that have too much shoulder angle, a bend in their body at the hips/waist, and a bent leg quite often. They all seem to have problems with corner shots and poor head position. The bent body and shoulders also hurts recoil control.

So square up with the rifle, sling or not, and try to shoot straight leg. Bend the leg to make room for the belly without sacrificing the other elements of the position if need be. That is my position on the prone position, in a nutshell. With enough effort about anything can be made to work reasonably well. It's when one chases the last few percent or fraction of a percent in pursuit of their goals that a less than optimal position has to be changed and fixed.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

My heart meds include Carvedilol (Coreg) which causes my heart to beat more positively, bigtime. Yet it does not seem to be a factor in my shooting, since I use a rest and rear bag. I use the off hand to pull the rifle butt into my shoulder, to eliminate any gap, and pinch with finger on trigger, and thumb on the rear of the trigger guard to fire. I just about never see any pulse beat in the scope, and when I do, it's usually telling me I need to correct my position.

Greg

 

[doc76251]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

It was not my intention to offer a suggestion that one position is better than another. Frank had made comment about the heart being left sided in "normal" humans. I emphasize "normal" because I recently looked at an x-ray of a young sailor who was "backwards". All his internal organs were on the other side of his body from where they were "supposed" to be. That being said, I digress. When I was doing High Power I attended a class by a retired Marine, Double Dist., sniper I believe, named Chet, forgive me I can't remember his last name. He spoke about the physiology of shooting and the importance of muscle relaxation, bone positioning and body position. As a medical type I got to thinking and experimenting with clinical skeletons to see just what was going on inside.

I developed some ideas about body position some which have been stated here. The foremost is that during slung in shooting the forward arm needs to be under the rifle to provide a solid base for recoil so that the body is not unintentionally “returning to zero” during that impulse. I find it physically impossible for me to lay flat on my belly and get my left elbow in line with my right shoulder, unless I turn 60* or so to the right. If I do turn that much I have removed the mass of my body from the recoil equation and now all recoil must be dealt with by my shoulder. Take a good look at a model of a human shoulder; it is one of the most unstable joints in the body ESPECIALLY if you push from the inside out. That is exactly what the recoil from a rifle does when you are off line.

Slung in shooting can be performed repeatability and effectively when the body is supported properly. Most engineering types won’t argue that the point of a triangle with the opposite side fully supported is one of the strongest geometric shapes. Triangles are used throughout industry as “stiffeners” or braces. The body is no different.

Slung in with the firing knee raised creates 2 triangles which support the body laying sideways on edge. The body is on its side in a line (wall) and then 2 triangles are created to support it. One with the firing hand elbow and one with the firing hand knee, which is holding up the rigid “wall” of the body and rifle. Add the sling and rifle and it becomes stable. It becomes stable because the “points” of the triangles are on the ground and the “base” of the triangle is against the long axis of the “wall”.

The body on its belly while slung forms a single triangle of two elbows and the chest. It can be argued that there is a triangle from the non-firing elbow to the shoulder connected by the sling and that there is another from the firing hand to the firing elbow to the shoulder connected by the rifle. These two triangles form the greater triangle. True. BUT! None of those triangles are mutually supportive. One side is very short and one side is very long which is not conducive to stability. Additionally only the forward triangle supports the rifle and it does that at an angle, the sling is holding the position because with out it and the opposing force at the pistol grip the shooter would fall over. Those two points don’t meet and are literally pushing against each other. The taller you make the triangle the less they push against each other but the more unstable at the base they become ( high prone I think its called). Conversely in low prone the whole position is barely a muscle cramp from collapsing. Somewhere in between is optimal support wise but there are a whole lot of things you need to keep track of while in this position to maintain it. World class athletes certainly have the ability to maintain this position and may find it more stable.

Non slung shooting is a whole different matter in that the rifle itself is supported without the body even contacting it. So the only problem there after is to figure out a way to control the recoil. IMHO flat behind the gun puts all of your mass directly in the line of recoil, there is no twisting or off cant pushing because it is being pushed straight back. The engagement point is critical in that it needs to be as perpendicular to the gun as possible (right angle). Flat belly is very handy for low prone but the taller the gun gets the harder it is for the body to maintain the correct angle. This is where one leg up comes in. You can maintain a much higher center of rifle simply by varying the height of the firing shoulder via the elbows and the rear support. This is handy for those who are toting along some spare poundage. That being said the higher you raise the firing shoulder the more problems you will have with recoil moving the rifle off target as less and less of the body is in the recoil path.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

All,

Results always suggest what works best. In my case, in prone, my leg is cocked so high as to almost have my knee touching my chest.

It's my standing position where some experimentation is still taking place since my scores there are lower than what I'm shootin' for.

I've read all posts on this thread; and, I think every perspective could be correct to get a shooter plenty of good hits from the prone position, straight ,or cocked leg. As a few have alluded, just try out a few things and analyze the results.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

New shooters,

Becoming an extraordinary marksman will call on the developing shooter to "try things out", but, starting out, coming into compliance with established doctrine, will, perhaps, save some time, as many shooters find established doctrine to work just fine.

 

[buckythebrewer]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

SterlingShooter,I think That statement holds true for most things in life.

You can waste alot of time chasing ideas.
Without knowledge,facts and experience...
Alot of time and effort can be wasted.Especially if you cannot learn and adjust for your mistakes.
I think I can shoot O.K. .But it does not come naturally,And I need to learn more on the Proper shooting technics so I can become a better shooter.That along with more practice

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Yes, I think David Tubb is a real good example of a "break-through" shooter. He seems to take what works, and then, explores for more of what may be out there to improve upon on good shooting.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

I think what we are talking about here is a gross net recoil response being delivered by a complex support system, i.e. the human body.

When you study the skeleton, it's good info; but it does not incorporate the effects of musculoskeletal relationships and responses.

This is not a criticism, simply a suggestion to consider additional sources of input.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

David Tubb's breaktroughs, IMHO, come from a combination of extensive exploration and observation, and an outstanding ability to convey those concepts to others.

Unlike a lot of competitive shooters, he appears to consider the passing on of good info to be a crucial part of competitive marksmanship. He's my favorite kind of competitor; one who's as interested in seeing your own improvement as he is in seeing his own.

BTW, IMHO, there are a number of very similar outstanding folks also contributing to this very thread.

Greg

 

[demarpaint]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Great info here!

Frank D

 

[MichaelEber]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Confidence is another variable we have neglected here.

Confidence alone will not get you into the X-ring on a consistent basis (no single thing will do that), but without it, such endeavors can become futile, too.
Greg </div></div>

AMEN, sir. One of the most important things about getting good at something is having total confidence in your rifle, yourself, and your accomplishments.

Also, treating each shot as the start of a new day keeps that confidence from eroding with each shot.

Bone on bone is what we were taught. Seated is simple, prone is simple as long as you remember to keep the rifle on your palm (I keep my position on the bones of my palm near the wrist) and the left arm as vertical beneath the rifle as possible. Standing is the hardest.

Relaxation is the final need to overcome. In QiGong we do a meditation called standing balance. We stand with our arms pointed forward, fore-finger extended like swords, and feet apart and parallel with knees bent. The key to keeping this posture for 30 minutes is relaxing every muscle. Great practice for going on the range and having to relax in positions you would normally try to tense (like standing).

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Elements of a steady position:
NPA,
Muscular relaxation,&
Bone/artificial support

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Consistency, consistency, consistency.

You cannot have it unless you consciously review each pertinent factor and consciously reestablish it for each shot. You must know a thing in order to be able to reproduce it. Nothing is haphazard, nothing is truly instinctual, rather it is practiced and becomes part of the skill set.

What you do and how you do it is important, no matter what it is, but doing it the same way each time is the crucial factor here.

I have often commented on what I call 'the system'.

The system consists of the rifle, the shooter, the ammunition, and the environment. None of these things can be separated from the system. Each plays its part and they all interact to preduce the outcome. Change any one, and you've altered the outcome. We cannot control the environment, but we can study its variations and their effect on the outcome, and with practice, can recognize its variations and incorporate them into our system.

Greg

 

[high-speed-para]

Re: Question on prone shooting position

Here is a good link:


www.jarheadtop.com

MSG Jim Owens, USMC, has excellent books and other aids (no, not the gay disease) that will help you. My scores skyrocketed when I started to use what I learned from his books and videos.

Good luck.