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Questions about meloniting

JB02

JB02

CDR
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Sep 14, 2011
    1,403
    9
    Northern VA
    After witnessing the performance of my friend's melonited barrel, I think I'm going to go for it!

    I have a Surgeon Rifle's built .308 Win that I want to make into a switchbarrel system with 6.5mm Creedmoor. I already have a 6.5mm Bartlein barrel on hand.

    I'm not really interested in having a gunsmith chamber the rifle to my 591/R and then send the barrel off for melonting; I would rather just send the action and barrel off to the gunsmith and a few weeks later receive a new barreled action with a melonited barrel chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor.

    - What gunsmith(s) do you recommend for this (chambering and meloniting)?

    - Are there any downsides to having the barrel melonited but not the action?

    - Anybody who's had this done have any lessons learned or useful tips?

    Thanks!
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Mark Gordon will chamber, then melonite prior to sending it back to you. I'd do the action too. Why not?

    I did both my FN SPR and my Savage action. Good to go.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I'm concerned that Surgeon may void the warranty on the action. I guess I could ask them. Why would you melonite the action also?
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    From what I've heard, many don't want to melonite an action due to the temps involved...typically it's suggested to Ion-Bond the action.

    Call C.Dixon at Longrifles, Inc. and see what he'll do. His turnaround is super fast...from shipping to him then delivery back to me will be less than two weeks for action work, barrel work cerakoting. Having him ship out for meloniting will add a little time but not much
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I had my action, bolt, and barrel melonited. I love the results. Shoots great, and will shoot even better with a skilled operator. If you could come to Central PA, I'd let you see/shoot it, so you could see what you think....
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm concerned that Surgeon may void the warranty on the action. I guess I could ask them. Why would you melonite the action also? </div></div>


    How many rusty Glock's have you seen? That's why I had my action nitrided/melonited.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I have had over 20 + rifles melonite treated, if you do it right and go through MMI Truetec you will be fine. If you use anyone else all bets are off.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    If your going to get it Melonited at this time I would only have MMI do it.

    Getting the action done? Off hand I wouldn't.

    Middle to late last year I did have MMI Melonite my .260 Rem. barrel.

    I test fired the barrel before sending it out to MMI to get a baseline on what the barrel did for accuracy and velocity. Then I repeated the tests after I got it back. So far I'm o.k. with everything. Will let you know how the barrel does over it's life etc...

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Thanks Frank. I find it assuring that you are experimenting with this.

    Your opinion on meloniting the action is the same as what Surgeon said when I called them: don't do it.

    As far as a builder, seems like there is a pretty strong consensus here ...
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After witnessing the performance of my friend's melonited barrel, I think I'm going to go for it!
    </div></div>

    Wondering what witnessing the performance of a melonited barrel looks like? Melonite does not improve accuracy. It makes the steel more corrosion resistant and supposed to increase barrel life. It won't make a bad barrel good or a good barrel great. Might make the barrel last longer, but you can't setback.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    The reason action manufacturers say "don't melonite" is because they have no control of the process, but yet, would be subject to litigation/liability if something bad happened. Unless they've had several done, and studied the dimensional and metallurgical ramifications, they'll say "no". Simple.

    I have a lot of experience with metal and heat treatment. I determined my action was 4140CM. I determined what hardness my action was, and determined what heat treatment had been performed to get it there. I spoke with the engineer at the melonite shop, we discussed, in detail, what temperatures and times the steel would be subjected to. I made an educated decision and did it.

    I'm happy with the results.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After witnessing the performance of my friend's melonited barrel, I think I'm going to go for it!
    </div></div>

    Wondering what witnessing the performance of a melonited barrel looks like? Melonite does not improve accuracy. It makes the steel more corrosion resistant and supposed to increase barrel life. It won't make a bad barrel good or a good barrel great. Might make the barrel last longer, but you can't setback. </div></div>

    I'll add to this. From what I understand corrosion resistance goes down in the s.s. but in c.m. steel the corrosion resistance goes up.

    Yes is suppose to help barrel life. That's why I'm trying it.

    No difference in accuracy.

    Some say they are getting more velocity with the Melonited treatment to the barrel.

    I fired around 30 rounds thru my barrel. Same powder, three different charges with two different bullets/weights. After getting the barrel back from Melonite treatment my barrel had no increase in velocity. The velocity numbers where dead on compared to my base line testing. So if one barrel is a indicator of anything I don't see a velocity gain at all.

    Correct in that you cannot set the barrel back once the barrel is Melonited but I don't set my barrels back anyways.

    Again I say becareful of where you send the barrel to, too get Melonited. The Melonite treatment can be done wrong and it can wreck the barrel.

    Later, Frank
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    as to barrel life- melonite will increase barrel life...about double. The reason is, the melonite process is actually a surface hardening process, not a coating. With this hardening process, the throat does not erode as fast.

    Corrosion resistance- Stainless, you'll have to treat like CM. CM won't become like stainless but will be more corrosion resistant.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I love these melonite threads, so much fun.

    Double barrel life?

    Interesting. My melonited 284 barrel was torched and badly firecracked with 549 down the tube.

    Because it is hardened?

    Interesting. My understanding is that throat erosion is not caused by abrasive wear (same process that wears the tires on your car) nearly as much as it is by flame-cutting type erosion.

    I've cut a lot of metal with an acetylene torch, and I can tell you the torch doesn't care how hard or soft the metal is.

    Melonite doesn't change the melting temperature of the base metal.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Turbo--sounds like your barrel either wasn't prepped or processed properly.

    If you do enough research, you'll see that increased barrel life is a byproduct of the nitrocarburizing process. There has also been barrels sectioned after numerous rounds sent through it after the nitrocarburizing process...the results were obvious, less erosion.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wondering what witnessing the performance of a melonited barrel looks like?</div></div>

    Perhaps that was a bad choice of words. I have read several scientific articles that completely convince me a melonited barrel will maintain its accuracy and service life for a greater number of firings. Plus, I like the finished look of the process.

    My main concern was that if the process was improperly performed, the barrel would be ruined. I wanted to see first hands the results of the gunsmith's process, which is primarily break-in and other prep work prior to meloniting after the barrel is cut, crowned, and chambered. His rifle is extremely accurate, which confirms that the builder has sufficiently proofed this manufacturing process. This was enough to give me confidence in trying this out myself.

    Something else that has provided me confidence is that major gun manufacturing companies are using this process on some of their barrels. It doesn't seem too radical a concept to me anymore.

    You are right, there is another aspect of long term performance. I'll have to monitor that, and based on the results, I will decide later on if it is worth the extra money.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seanh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo--sounds like your barrel either wasn't prepped or processed properly.

    If you do enough research, you'll see that increased barrel life is a byproduct of the nitrocarburizing process. There has also been barrels sectioned after numerous rounds sent through it after the nitrocarburizing process...the results were obvious, less erosion.

    </div></div>
    I've seen the claims and the "evidence", but it's mainly anecdotal. Anyone that has conducted testing before knows you can get the results to indicate anything you want.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I'm not fully convinced of the benefits of SBN processes in high intensity overbore cartridge barrels. I think it's great for pistol cartridge barrels and even 5.56mm barrels burning ~25grs of powder. Not so sure SBN can resist the heat generated by 40-50grs of powder burning in an overbore situation. I've had friends try it and get inconclusive results.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seanh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Corrosion resistance- Stainless, you'll have to treat like CM. CM won't become like stainless but will be more corrosion resistant.</div></div>

    NO.... have you seen salt spray tests on SS after SBN?...
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Turk, thanks for that link just when I thought I had my mind made up ;-) There's a link in that thread to the articles I've read, but plenty of other opinions range from skeptical to hostile.

    Another downside I realized is the cost. Also, my action is already cerakoted FDE, and I'm not sure I want a two-toned look

    I contacted a reputable gun builder about this, and he heartily endorses the process and uses it on his own rifles.

    I need to mull over this some more.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I spoke w/ a "BG" rep once as I am in the automotive industry. I asked him about their products; he stated that they know one thing for certain; "it doesn't hurt anything"! I imagine this applies to this process; if applied correctly it won't hurt anything, but other then that the jury seems to be out.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I've purchased 2 melonited AR barrels in the last few months.
    One is a 1:8 3R polygonal rifled (made from a Blackhole Weaponry barrel) RECCE profile 16" barrel that I had high hopes for (GUARANTEED sub MOA) and the other a 14.7" M4 profile I pinned a FSB and pinned and welded an A2 flash hider on.

    The M4 barrel was nothing special, 2.5" shooter at 100 yards (utility grade pretty much) but it looked trick. Sold that rifle off.

    The RECCE barrel... TERRIBLE shooter, with a free floated handguard it threw a succession of fliers more than a group, 8 to 10" at 100 yards.
    I then built it up on a different receiver, new barrel nut, drop-in handguard... it actually tightened up to 5" at 100 yards with 55 gr softpoint reloads. With 77 gr SMKs they keyholed. Then I noticed some of my reloads wouldn't chamber so I bought headspace gauges; lo and behold the chamger was short!

    I tried contacting the seller for 2 weeks, then, since I was approaching 60 days, I called my credit card company and got my payment back.

    I tried to open up the chamber with a brand new HSS reamer and of course it was a waste of time. I stopped before I smoked the reamer.

    A few days later I was picking up some freshly fired cases at the range when it occurred to me...

    Back at my shop I drilled and tapped a 1/4-20 thread through the primer hole of several fire formed cases. I chucked up the barrel in my lathe and spun it 200 RPM. With a socket head cap screw spun into the tapped hole in a case I could prevent the case from spinning. Some valve grinding compound on the case shoulder and a little elbow grease, 20 minutes (and 3 cases) later, a bolt would close on a go gauge!

    Reassembled the barrel with the FF HG and... still a lousy barrel, 5" at 100 yards with PMC XTAC was the best I got out of it. Still, at this point it's free, and I had a spare receiver, so now it lives on an upper with a drop-in handguard (it still shoots better non-floated) and with irons at 50 yards it's good enough for "minute-of-man" accuracy but not much more.

    These days, though, it could fetch a few bucks with the scarcity of AR parts.

    No more melonited barrels for me.

    Joe
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Someone say my signature and PM'ed me about Meloniting and I sent him this. Figured I'd just post it here to save retyping it.

    So...

    I had it done at H&M Metal Processing. (www.blacknitride.com)
    Talk to Shade there, he's the gun guy.
    If you have a new barrel, you'll want to put about 20-30 rounds though it then clean the shit out of it and send it in.
    If you have an existing barrel then just clean the absolute hell out of it and send it in. You can cerakote over the melonite. The melonite isn't in any way a coating. It just changes the metal on a molecular level and adds about 20-40 rockwell hardness to it. The benefits to this are huge. It's impervious to damage, won't scratch, rust etc. Also since it is harder the barrels are usually faster then before (mine came back about 80fps faster). The throats are also a lot harder to burn out/damage because the metal is harder

    The cost is $200 per "gun". While this might seem a little high, once you pay this intial fee you can throw in pretty much whatever you want. So you can do, barrel, muzzle brake, bolt, action, throw in an AR barrel or two etc.

    I can't recommend it enough. Like I said in my post, I will have it done to all my barrels from this point forward.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Give RW Snyder a call. He handles all my actions, bolts, barrels, rings, rails etc. If its steel it gets melonite. The lone exception was my bros Model 70 bolt. Because its not one piece I had it boron nickel plated, much lower temp.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Scudzuki, you blame inaccuracy of an admitted poorly manufacture barrel on the surface treatment?

    PTG told me you will need a carbide reamer to set back a melonite chamber.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    The cost is $200 per "gun". While this might seem a little high, once you pay this intial fee you can throw in pretty much whatever you want. So you can do, barrel, muzzle brake, bolt, action, throw in an AR barrel or two etc.

    I can't recommend it enough. Like I said in my post, I will have it done to all my barrels from this point forward.</div></div>


    just a FYI... DONT DO A CHROMED AR barrel!!!.. it will destroy it...

    it will make a 1moa barrel into a 6moa... other then that, i would say you have a 99% chance it will be great for you...
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MWDG3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scudzuki, you blame inaccuracy of an admitted poorly manufacture barrel on the surface treatment?

    PTG told me you will need a carbide reamer to set back a melonite chamber. </div></div>

    No I don't blame the poor accuracy on the surface treatment.

    The barrel is a Blackhole Weaponry barrel, which by all accounts are very good barrels (as the non-melonited example I owned was). I don't know who re-contoured the barrel (BHW does not offer them in RECCE profile) or who melonited it.

    My experience highlights the importance, as other have pointed out, of shooting a few dozen rounds through a barrel to clean out any burrs from the rifling and verify that it's a good barrel BEFORE making it harder 'n hell to rework.

    Melonite will challenge even a carbide reamer. You have to apply a fair amount of thrust to break through the case hardened surface and with that much surface area cutting all at once it could well snap the reamer shank or chip flutes.

    Joe
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    I've only had one barrel Melonited. 2200 rounds through a 6x47 and shot a .28" 5 shot group last weekend.
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Steve- 2200 is getting up in age for the 6x47L. It will be interesting to see how long that one lasts.

    I have had two barrels and one action melonited. The barrels are a 7WSM, and a 7 Dakota. Neither has burned out / died yet; both shoot very well.

    The action was a BAT (with their recommendation), this one wears the melonited 7 Dakota barrel.

    Jeffvn
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Hi Jeff,

    I'm hoping for close to 4000 rounds??? I'm thinking I'll have my 20x47L Melonited, it's a real barrel burner.

    How many do you have through the 7mm's?
     
    Re: Questions about meloniting

    Steve

    I have 600+ through both the Dakota the wsm. No doubt the Dakota will die first, since that particular WSM just got the bolt swapped and barrel swapped to a 308. No worries, I still have a WSM in the safe to use during the zombie apocalypse.
    laugh.gif


    20x47L ... Nice. I have a great picture on something very similar. Sweet looking cartridge. Looks kind of like a shrunken 7WSM.
     
    i just thought i'd add the nitriding process is meant to improve heat resistance and resistance to tempering, this is what reduces the erosion of the barrel throat area
     
    turbo54 said:
    The reason action manufacturers say "don't melonite" is because they have no control of the process, but yet, would be subject to litigation/liability if something bad happened. Unless they've had several done, and studied the dimensional and metallurgical ramifications, they'll say "no". Simple.

    I have a lot of experience with metal and heat treatment. I determined my action was 4140CM. I determined what hardness my action was, and determined what heat treatment had been performed to get it there. I spoke with the engineer at the melonite shop, we discussed, in detail, what temperatures and times the steel would be subjected to. I made an educated decision and did it.

    I'm happy with the results.
    Click to expand...

    And that is the proper method of determining whether to proceed or not to proceed.
     
    So if i want to send a barreled action to H&M Metal Processing Do I have to send it through a FFL or??
     
    turbo54 said:
    Originally Posted By: seanh
    Turbo--sounds like your barrel either wasn't prepped or processed properly.

    If you do enough research, you'll see that increased barrel life is a byproduct of the nitrocarburizing process. There has also been barrels sectioned after numerous rounds sent through it after the nitrocarburizing process...the results were obvious, less erosion.




    I've seen the claims and the "evidence", but it's mainly anecdotal. Anyone that has conducted testing before knows you can get the results to indicate anything you want.
    Click to expand...


    if you can get mark from SAC to post, i just heard he has 2 6.5 CM's.. both with about equal rounds in them, and 1 nitrided, and the other not

    i was told he recently bore scoped both... the 1 was all ready firecracked, the nitrided looked new.. not sure on the round count...
     
    I wasn't aware [MENTION=14025]Mgordon[/MENTION] had an ongoing "melonite test", but I look forward to the results of it.

    Recently I got to bore scope my nitrided 6xc barrel that has ~550 through it. They have been mostly full-power loads. Anyway, it wasn't throat-fucked, but it sure as shit didn't look great. It has fire cracking about like you'd expect a ~550rd 6xc to have.
     
    Heating any Stainless barrel to 1400 degrees like the Melonite treatment kills the stainless corrosion resistant properties but then the Melonite becomes the corrosion resistant property. After Melonite it does not matter if it was stainless or CMV it will be more resistant to corrosion than stainless or CMV was. Stainless will corrode from sweat or blood, Melonite will not.
    I have a 8" chunk of stainless barrel that was Melonited in 2009. I sand blasted the black off of one end and left the other alone. Ever sand blasted a stainless barrel and seen the media spark on contact? I covered the barrel in salt and wrapped it up in a wet paper towel and hand towel and left it for a month, wetting the towel daily. The end that was blasted corroded or rusted fairly quick, the other end did not. 4 years later it is still wrapped up and has still not rusted or corroded.
    From what I have seen the throat of a stainless barrel will firecrack long before the throat of a melonite treated barrel. It does not effect accuracy. H&M does a good job, I would stay clear of any Bodycote owned business.
     
    Ring said:
    Nitriding ain't 1400, its about 1050f to 1100f

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
    Click to expand...
    Whatever, the heat kills the corrosion resistant properties in natural stainless. We've had in excess of 10000 barrels Melonite treated since 2008.
    Some were stainless, afterwards we decided there was no need to use stainless when 4150 developed a much thicker layer and wear resistance.
    On top of that stainless barrels can come out with a brown tint instead of jet black like CMV.

    f9.jpg


    This is a piece of 416 stainless barrel from PacNor/Noveske

    melonite_test.jpg


    Hardness related to type of alloy
    SBN_Hardness2.jpg
     
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