Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

[JTinIN]

Have a few questions on building a 223 bull barrel AR15 upper and while one would think there should be a few threads, have struck out at this point, thus this post.

Background:
This year's project is one (or maybe two) AR 223 match / varmint uppers. The first pass was looking at a dual purpose upper with a Wylde chamber for better reliability (plus allow some of the guys to shoot 5.56) with a medium twist barrel. However, starting to look like one is better off with something more focused to either (or both) a .223 chamber for the Varmint upper, with a 1 in 12 twist barrel to shoot 5Xgr SMK AND/OR a heavy bullet/match upper with around 1 in 8 (or 7.7) twist barrel with a tighter (than Wylde) chamber for the 77gr SMKS. Then build the second upper when you want it. The primary focus is getting very good accuracy and if possible something that will come close to the 3/8 MOA of the bolt guns.

Question 1: Would one expect a Varmint upper (223 chamber, 1 in 12 twist) shooting 5xgr SMK to shoot any better than a faster twist (1 in 7.7) 223 Match chamber shooting 77gr SMK - or too many other variables?
Question 2: Recommended barrel manufacture / suppliers. Default is Krieger other options to consider?
Question 3: Recommend chamber - Wylde or a tighter match chamber?
Question 4: Plan on having the bolt head spaced to the barrel, free float upper, using a Timmeny trigger (possible Geissele in the future) - any other ideas and recommendations.

Thanks

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JTinIN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question 1: Would one expect a Varmint upper (223 chamber, 1 in 12 twist) shooting 5xgr SMK to shoot any better than a faster twist (1 in 7.7) 223 Match chamber shooting 77gr SMK - or too many other variables? <span style="color: #000099">In short, no. My 1 in 8 loves 50gr V-max, and is capable of very tight groups with them.</span>
Question 2: Recommended barrel manufacture / suppliers. Default is Krieger other options to consider? <span style="color: #000099">Krieger is good, I went with MSTN for the complete build, but they offer barrels (Novekse 1 in 8) as well. I also like Compass lake and White Oak Precision (not armament).</span>
Question 3: Recommend chamber - Wylde or a tighter match chamber? <span style="color: #000099">The match chamber limits your options a bit, if your not seriously competing with it I do not think a Wylde chamber will hold you back with regards to accuracy.</span>
Question 4: Plan on having the bolt head spaced to the barrel, free float upper, using a Timmeny trigger (possible Geissele in the future) - any other ideas and recommendations. <span style="color: #000099">I've used several AR match triggers and like the Wilson Combat two stage trigger the best. It has no play or over-travel and is scary crisp on the break. The first stage is very short---just enough to remind me I'm alive before the break.</span>

<span style="color: #000099">Good Luck</span>


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[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Paul

Thanks for the data points and experience.

The Wilson Combat trigger sounds like need to check into more.

Small world, have gotten a lot of items from MSTN over the years ... just was not thinking MSTN and varminet/match, but is a good idea, just delete the rail hand guard (I always liked the tube PRI better anyway ;-).

If one was making a WAG, knowing that there are way too many variables, how much of a difference in group size would one assume might be due to a Wylde chamber vs a tighter match chamber?

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

I've asked the same question to several builders and have recieved some form or another of this response:

If your reloading your own ammo using match bullets with the most consistent fireformed brass you can find. And then taking the time to ensure that your doing everything perfect while loading, you probably won't see much at 100 but may see some at 1000. If your shooting matches or benchresting your AR go with a match chamber, if not the Wylde will be dang close.

 

[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've asked the same question to several builders and have recieved some form or another of this response:

If your reloading your own ammo using match bullets with the most consistent fireformed brass you can find. And then taking the time to ensure that your doing everything perfect while loading, you probably won't see much at 100 but may see some at 1000. If your shooting matches or benchresting your AR go with a match chamber, if not the Wylde will be dang close. </div></div>

Thanks. Since one of the two uppers will be fired off the bench much of the time, will go with a match chamber for the first upper and then go from there.

Talking to Wes, Compass Lake and Kreiger, will order one by end of the month.

 

[BgBmBoo]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Are you wanting a bull barrel for long shot strings? In other words for cooling?

If so there is a better option IMHO. JP makes light tapper barrels and then put heat sinks on them. This yields much better cooling without all the weight of a bull barrel. Info here: http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.5_hs.php

I have a couple of JP upper based rifles with this setup and like them a lot.

As for accuracy...with factory ammo they shoot VERY well. Below is a video of Amber (my wife) shooting 600 yards with crap ball ammo. The picture shows a five shot group at 100 yards with Federal 40gr Nosler varmint ammo.
Barrel is a 1:8 twist with Wylde chamber.

Take care,Stan



Amber shooting 600 yards with crap ammo:

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And Amber shooting 200 yards with same rifle:


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[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Thanks and keep the ideas and experence coming.

The JP upper based rifles are am interesting option, however, for the first build will stay old school and go with a large diameter bull barrel (is also a combo build with a close friend who has been shooting only bolt guns for many dozen of years).

Starting to look like an upper from Frank at Compass Lake Engineering might be in the cards, in part due to chamber's, being able to get a total package and in part due to being in stock and a lead time in week's vs. months.

Also noticed the website at MSTN is still on Temporary.

 

[Hawk45]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Question 1: I wouldn't limit myself with the 1:12 unless you are ONLY going to shoot 50gr bullets. I'd go at least 1:9.
Question 2: You are on a good path here. As other have mentioned other good makes as well, also look at Whito Oak Armory (WOA). Good stuff and very good prices. Great service.
Question 3: Never been a fan of "Super match" chambers. I like a wee bit wiggle room for function resasons.
Question 4: Good ideas.. most barrel makers can send a matched bolt for about $50 (I know WOA will) or just do it for free if you order a complete BCG with the barrel. I'd pony up right out the box for the best trigger I could get. The accuracy as you have read comes from trigger and barrel (I hear Boltripper whispering it somewhere). Spend the extra $100 and be done.

Can't wait to see the final product.
Cheers,
Hawk

 

[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Thanks everyone for the ideas and discussion, on line and off. Due in a large part to delivery time and chambers, ended up going with a complete 26" upper from Compass Lake Engineering (w/o front sight shown in photo) with a 1 in 7.7 Kreiger barrel and Compass Lake Engineering's chamber - should be here by tax day, if all goes well. Should be interesting this summer getting a load developed (always appreciate anyone's favorite load to try and work up to).

The down side is now I am thinking need to upgrade the barrel on my old beater "semi accurate" upper (Colt A2 barrel that use to shoot better a few thousand rounds ago, but will at least clean well and test with GMM first ;-). Only photo is missing charging handle, 600m iron sights and bi-pod.

 

[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Update the Compass Lake Engineering upper showed up today, no photos yet nor match ammo as shoot the last set of test reloads yesterday in the Model 1 bull upper (did ok, but still paper between some holes ;-).

 

[nfoley]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

BgBmBoo,
Is that the light or medium contour you have? You have me thinking about putting one on my American Spirit Arms.

 

[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Update on Compass Lake Eng upper with Krieger barrel - looks like will be a keeper. Still in the load development stages with close friend (bad when you don't have time to do your own initial load development, however, is retired friend's range in his front yard where we an shoot up to 20mm and is one of the couple people that I trust their reloads) working through powder and bullet combinations and the better 69gr SMK loads that feed through the mag were "half dime size" and the single load 80gr (too long for the mag) were "quarter dime size" (all initial work is done with batches of three shot groups).

He is now looking at a second upper (worst than Lay's chips).

Thanks!

 

[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Now moving over to finding a favorite load ... 4895 is ahead at the moment with 80gr bullets, but not enough statics to really know much.
As always, appreciate any favorite loads for accuracy (waiting on Reloader 15 to try with 69 to 77 gr, that a fiend and high power shooter has good luck with).

Running a X35 (?) power Leupold 30mm bench rest scope for load development, just to keep down any variations, plus was what was in friends "junk box". Getting bad when start thinking X35 power is about right at a 100 yards ;-)

Had to change the sights as kept hitting the thumb tack which was the target, makes it hard to finish the group with the aiming point gone (got 1/8 inch red dots to try).

 

[josie6637]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

Im doing a simialr build. This thread was very helpful, thanks boys.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

watched several Nat'l Match shooters with tiny bughole targets
that were using Rock River Nat'l Match barrels--very reasonably priced

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

I like both Reloader 15 and Varget (good alternative to 4064) and I've found that you can use both almost interchangeably. I've come to use Reloader 15 more than Varget because Varget seems to vary from lot to lot and I found myself having to rework loads when starting a new batch of powder sometimes.

Reloader 15 also gives me better velocities and less deviation in velocity. I run 24gr of RL15 with 77gr SMKs and 69gr SMKs. It's just what my rifle liked. I don't load for velocity. I load for accuracy, but use a chrony to measure velocity so that I can get an idea of my dope will be.

 

[wPAShooter1]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

This has been very helpful with some of the questions i had for my AR that i want to change up.

 

[JTinIN]

Re: Questions on accurate bull barrel AR15 upper build

After taking most of year off due to medical issues and too busy of schedule, getting back to this project. At the moment the several of the best load development groups have been with either Hornday 75gr or SMK 69 gr, however, these are just the very initial three shot groups from a large range of groups plus breaking in the rifle (friends method is try a few dozen 3 shot groups with each bullet and a range of powders and loads, which show an good range, however, can also miss a good load if you have a bad day when testing that combination).

Have a few more loads with 69gr and 80gr SMK and then move on to 2012 loading and testing, which for 2012 will be my upper and my loads only (friend had another project so bought out his half of the project) and then will try the best of his loads for enough groups to get some statical averages.

As always appreciate any well working loads and/or ideas on development (too many powders and bullets to check everything now days ;-).

------------
Update was shooting loads with the 69 and 80gr bullet (loaded long for single load) and got yawn groups until tried the loading that was a five and ten thousands shorter and the two test groups dropped nicely, with out pesky space between bullets ... guess have to work with this combination more and does tend to show why some variation of a latter or matrix helps.