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Gunsmithing raceway, lug, bolt dia.

Cuban Croc

Petty Officer Third Class
Full Member
Minuteman
May 11, 2005
286
54
53
Dallas, Texas
i have read many posts about bolt dia affecting this and that. I have read where there is actually a compay that adds metal or sleeve to make the bolt dia. bigger.

this statement and question is random so be patient.

i have had a reminton action and also a rem clone action. the remington clone would "lock-up" and/or "bind" it was because of the high tolerances? anyway it was real disappointing. the company start out as a bench rest sorta company and put out a tactical action. this is not about the clone.

cont. w/random talk

my question is w/high tolerances...does this take away from what i call "slop" and/or "tactical" part of the action.

cont. cont. w/ random talk

the lugs run on the raceway. what does the bolt dia have to do w/(i don't know)

what makes a great tactical action.

i want slop until the bolt cams over..then i want "high tolerances"

anyone want to add or take away...go for it.

...your smart...im dumb
...your handsome...im ugly
...your rich...im cuban

just trying to learn
thanks for you input

-al
 
Re: raceway, lug, bolt dia.

Get a Borden action with the "Borden Bumps" and you will have what you are looking for. The bumps ride in the race ways and don't interfere with clearances while cycling the bolt. When the bolt is closed the bumps take out almost all of the clearance.
 
Re: raceway, lug, bolt dia.

dmg264,

I have talked w/ cc on this subject, while your solution to the problem is helpful but its not the answer he is looking for.

perhaps his rambling didn't clearly state what information he is looking for.

So I'll pose it a little more clear.........

With the lugs on a bolt being bigger than the bolt body why does does a bolt diameter clearance make a difference with respect to tolerances?

Is that the bolt diameter measured around the lugs or around the bolt body?

if so......

How do lugs running on the race way create binding with respect to bolt diameter?

kt
 
Re: raceway, lug, bolt dia.

I'll jump in and start with this statement.

"Everything is a compromise"

After 27 years building rifles I think I've heard it all.
"I want a 1000 yd. elk rifle that weights 6 1/2 lbs. scoped"
"I want a 1/4 MOA rifle that shoots all factory ammo the same, can you guarentee that?"
" I want a custom BR action and tight neck chamber on my deer rifle"

You get the idea.

For the most part the 80-20 rule works with all but purpose built target rifles. Use the 80% of what we know from the target world to build an accurate rifle and use the other 20% towards function and balancing all the different aspects of the rifle package. Part of the 20% used for function is relaxing some tolerences. Coating and finishes have to be planned for and built into the specs of the action. I spend time working with customers to design a package that they will be happy with one, two, three years down the road. Not just when they order it and think they will have the biggest baddest thunder boomer ever made. This is supposed to be fun.

Concerning your bolt problem. I would rather talk to you on the phone than try and hash this out here. I'll better understand what you have and what your problem is and what help I can offer. Give me a call.
 
Re: raceway, lug, bolt dia.

Some of this is semantics. You are talking about "clearances" and "tolerances" but I am not sure we are all on the same page. This is also where I should just keep my mouth shut because I am not an engineer or a gunsmith - just a gun crank who thinks he knows it all.

As I understand the question, what CC is really talking about is clearances - the difference in measurements of various parts that have to work together to perform a function. The tighter that clearances are held, the more consistent the mechanical function will be - however, with tighter clearances, there is also a higher probability of parts binding or seizing due to any number of reasons to include debris accumulation, different expansion rates of dissimilar metals as the heat up due to movement, or galling of incompatible alloys.

The process of "sleeving" a stock Remington bolt was developed by benchrest gunsmiths to keep clearances/tolerances to a minimum, thereby assuring that whenever a round was chambered and the action bolted, the bolt face, chamber, alignment of the round in the chamber as pressed forward and resting on the bolt face - all were as square and/or concentric as mechanically possible from one shot to the next. Some of the processes you mention represent several ways to accomplish this. Sleeving adds a metal sleeve that is usually somewhat elliptical, so that when the bolt is closed, it fits tightly and (more importantly) in the same position at the breech of the chamber. Another way to get there is to take a bolt raceway reamer (like those made by PTG) that opens the hole down the middle of the action to a UNIFORM diameter and a perfectly round cross section. Then you add either an oversized bolt or a sleeved bolt with the clearances you need or think you need to get the most mechanical consistency that can be got.

As you have noted though, this degree of tight mechanical clearances and precision, comes at a cost - i.e., the possibility of binding when any debris is added to the equation. As with most things, the solution is to compromise. You try to have loose enough clearances in the mechanical relationships of the various moving parts that come into play during the operations of loading and reloading, while trying to have minimum clearances/tolerances at the point of lock-up. This is why Surgeon (and others) makes more than one type of action. A purely "tactical" action has loose enough clearances (slop) in the specs of the parts involved in the loading/reloading operations so that it will work under less-than-ideal conditions - sand, mud, snow, etc. - while still locking up tightly enough, when in battery, to deliver consistent performance.

Back to some of the original questions - lugs running in the raceways have little to do with bolt diameter or any of the other issues mentioned other than if the lugs are too long or wide or off in any dimension to allow them to run freely in the raceway, they will bind. Where lug fit is more important is the relationship between the back surface of the lug that rests on the "shoulder" or "shelf" face of the action body, when the bolt is turned down and in battery. If one of the lugs is "higher" than the other, only that lug will be engaging the abutment leaving the other sitting off the abutment. In theory, when the shot is fired and the round/case head accelerates rearward onto the bolt face, that lug sitting above the abutment is thrust back into contact with the abutment, but now the whole relationship of the parts is out of square and vibration or flex or some other disastrous situation has thrown your shot. (Maybe) That's why when a factory action is trued, the lugs and abutment are fitted (or lapped) so that this will not happen.

All this being said, there are numerous instances of rifles that are so mechanically out of square that they should not shoot worth a damn and yet, they perform right up there with a custom.

Go figure.

If pure mechanical accuracy is your goal - such as Benchrest - then removing all mechanical slop and going for minimum clearances is the way to go. If you are looking for a field rifle, get as tight as you can in the critical operations, without losing reliable function.

Hope this helps.
 
Re: raceway, lug, bolt dia.

I'm going to get flamed so suit is on : )

When you close the bolt on your rifle, say a Remington 700, the trigger pushes up on the bottom of the bolt. This pushing up on the back of the bolt, tilts the bolt body and with your lugs locking straight up and down. It pushes the top lug away sometimes a couple thousands leaving only your bottom lug making contact.

Once fired, the trigger releases the firing pin, the cartidge fires, the bolt body drops in the rear and the top lug slams back into the action lugs. All of this violent slamming and slapping sends additional vibrations down your barrel. It also can very shot to shot making variations in accuaracy. Now I'm splitting hairs but stick with me a minute.

The average remington can have .006 to as much as .012 slop. The sleeves take it down to .001 to .003 total slop up and down giving better lug lock up and less movement going on during the firing processs.

I hate doing sleeves, they are a pain. That said, I think they make a difference. Everyone I've done has shot and shot well and shot well all the time.

There are tricks to getting them to run smooth. I just finished my Tactical/Hunter and left only .001 total clearence and the bolt runs smoooooth. After the sleeves are finished to the correct size - I stone the 90 and 270 side of the sleeves (the lugs are 0 and 180) and couple thousands smaller so they run smoother and allow for dirt and dust, then like the Bordon bumps they lock up in the fired position with only .001 clearence. Another thing that helps is running some moly grease or Brownells action lube on the bolt body and sleeves and work it in. It will keep getting smoother over time and after about 200 rounds (or working of the bolt) you probably won't know they are there. You will also learn to run them as fast and smooth as a rifle without them.


Hope it helps,
JamieD
Wolf Precision
All Hogs Go to Heaven