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Training Courses Randy Cain Practical Rifle class in Lakeland FL

cliffy110

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Oct 6, 2020
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This is the second time I have taken Randy Cain's Practical Rifle class and it was even better than the first. If you have never taken a class like this, some explanation is in order. This is not a long range shooting class. It is not a hunting class. Here is the best way I can describe what it does: It teaches one to fight with a common hunting rifle by imparting the foundational skills required for any rifle shooting.

That's a pretty tall order but Randy pulls it off well.

The class starts by discussing and practicing natural point of aim and learning respiratory pause. This is not a simple thing and it often isn't fully understood until long after the class is over. He stresses skeletal support and proper body position. As the training progresses, he adds in proper sling use (a real shooting sling and not a carry strap). He then moves on to the 5 basic shooting positions of off-hand, braced kneeling, squat (rice paddy prone), sitting (3 variations) and prone (3 different types). He spends a lot of time ensuring all the positions are understood and executed correctly.

Randy also spends a fair amount of time on loading and topping off. He runs a hot range which is refreshing. It means the shooter has to pay attention to keep the gun topped off so they are ready for the next drill. For those with detachable magazines, it means figuring out how to carry the spare mags and the empties.

Each day, he has a drill called Rolling Thunder. It involves having 5 shooters on the line and creating a shooting sequence. The first one is easy... shooter one shoots one shot, followed by shooter two doing the same and on down the line. After shooter 5 shoots, shooter 1 shoots 2 shots and so on. It gets hectic and by the time the shooters are doing three shots, somebody has fumbled a mag change. Stress is introduced and it becomes clear that the purpose of the exercise is to reinforce lessons about gun handling, loading and topping off. It is madness and you'll see who has a firm grip on gun handling.

Because I took this class during standard time, we were able to do a night shoot on day two. This is really cool. One drill demonstrated that scopes matter. Low light sidelined many shooters pretty quickly but the guys with better scopes were able to shoot much later than the others. I had the Leupold VXR Scout scope 1.5-5X with the Firedot reticle and I was able to last until the very end which was about 40 minutes past published sunset time. The only other scope that made it that long was a guy with a Leupold VX6 HD 1.75-6X. We then moved to other drills and the advantage of a weapons mounted light became clear.

Day three moved to 200 yards for a bit but we also did drills while moving and we learned transitions to pistols. The Rolling Thunder drill was made more complicated and again, reinforced skills of weapons handling and topping off.

By the end of the class, a shooter will have learned a huge amount about their gear, their body and what needs improved. They will feel much more confident with their rifle and will have learned to use a common deer rifle as a fighting tool. They will know things they didn't know they needed.

Notes about rifles and gear:

Any rifle will do, but a bolt action, .308 with a low power variable scope works best. A detachable magazine isn't needed and in some respects, is a handicap. This is particularly true of the AICS style mags. I saw many of them dropped during the weekend and they don't go in as smoothly as my Steyr mags. If you have AICS mags, having a few 10 rounders is nice during Rolling Thunder but defeats the purpose of the drill.

I took 2 rifles. Each had detachable mags and I had enough to be on the line with 50 rounds loaded. That was plenty and usually more than needed, but I would not go with less. For those with hinged floorplate guns, a simple pocket full of loose ammo worked fine.

Having a dump pouch was nice and I recommend one. I also used 5.11 pants which have an internal pocket for neoprene knee pads. The FL range is grass but a hurricane had just gone through so it was VERY wet. The knee pads helped. A good shooting mat helps with that as well.

As for ammo, you're going through about 500 rounds in 3 days so don't waste money on expensive match ammo. It really doesn't matter. If your gun will shoot 2 MOA with cheap milsurp ammo, that's all you need. Just don't bring any steel core ammo because there is some steel target work.

One last piece of advice for this class. Leave your ego at home. Leave your excuses as well. Randy is a no-BS kind of guy and assumes you paid him for his opinion and isn't afraid to offer it. Learn from that.

Bottom line is, this is the class to take if you want to learn the fundamentals of the rifle. Read Jeff Cooper's book The Art of the Rifle and you'll be ready for the class, but there is no substitute for actually doing it with an instructor like this.


Oh... and if you sign up for the class, tell him Steve Clifford referred you.
 
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Enjoyed the AAR. Thanks for taking the time to write it up

What would you say were your top 2 things you personally took away from this experience?
 
Enjoyed the AAR. Thanks for taking the time to write it up

What would you say were your top 2 things you personally took away from this experience?

I've taken Randy's class twice and have taken 2 other scout rifle classes so what I took away may not be typical. All my top take-aways center around how much I like my Steyr and how hard it is to do better with anything else. Between the rifle and my scope (Leupold VXR Scout 1.5-5X), I'm satisfied that I've made the best decision for a general purpose rifle.

I also took away a greater appreciation for hinged floorplate magazines. Randy allowed me to shoot a genuine legend of a rifle in the class which was one of Jeff Cooper's personal rifles. It was Scout VI built on a ZKK 601 action and it ran extremely well and I found no problems keeping it running under stress.
 
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Enjoyed the AAR. Thanks for taking the time to write it up

What would you say were your top 2 things you personally took away from this experience?

I actually thought more about your question over night. I should probably answer as if this were the first time I'd taken the class. When I took it back in 2017, I came away with two very distinct lessons:

1. Natural point of aim is important. It isn't easy to describe and even harder to discover. Once you get it, you get it! Randy did a great job of helping us understand the concept and once I found it, I understood something that goes beyond anything one can read.

2. You can fight with a bolt gun. After taking his class, I shot a few 2 gun matches with a scout rifle. I didn't win, but I wasn't last either. I was solidly in the middle of the pack against guys running 5.56 carbines. Once you learn to really run a bolt gun, you can do some really amazing work.
 
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I actually thought more about your question over night. I should probably answer as if this were the first time I'd taken the class. When I took it back in 2017, I came away with two very distinct lessons:

1. Natural point of aim is important. It isn't easy to describe and even harder to discover. Once you get it, you get it! Randy did a great job of helping us understand the concept and once I found it, I understood something that goes beyond anything one can read.

2. You can fight with a bolt gun. After taking his class, I shot a few 2 gun matches with a scout rifle. I didn't win, but I wasn't last either. I was solidly in the middle of the pack against guys running 5.56 carbines. Once you learn to really run a bolt gun, you can do some really amazing work.
Very cool. Always great to get your horizons and boundaries expanded.
 
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Obviously an equally compentent AR shooter will outperform a bolt guy. That said, how was the overall feel compared to an AR? In other words, would you, after taking classes like this, EVER prefer a good bolt rifle over a quality AR? Assuming both rifles are outfitted similarly (lpvo, wml, etc.).

I love this practical side of bolt rifles, but have never personally built one for carbine uses as I’ve always reached for my AR for that. Interested to hear your thoughts.
 
Obviously an equally compentent AR shooter will outperform a bolt guy. That said, how was the overall feel compared to an AR? In other words, would you, after taking classes like this, EVER prefer a good bolt rifle over a quality AR? Assuming both rifles are outfitted similarly (lpvo, wml, etc.).

I love this practical side of bolt rifles, but have never personally built one for carbine uses as I’ve always reached for my AR for that. Interested to hear your thoughts.


So the answer to this isn't short or simple. It is a good question and observation though.

Randy addressed this during the class. His quote was, "If I were drooped off in Mogadishu and had a choice, I'd take an M4 and as many mags as I could carry just like everybody else." That brings up the next obvious question though and this is, are you planning on being dropped off in Mogadishu?

The "practical rifle" is similar to the idea of a "general purpose rifle" which I'll call a GPR. The idea of a GPR is that you think you may need a rifle, but you don't really know what it will be needed for. One rifle to handle just about anything: Deer, elk, bear, coyote, groundhog, home defense, rioting ANTIFA coming toward your home. lone sniper, part of a supported team, urban clash, suburban uprising, rural SHTF or any number of variants in between. Is there one gun to handle them all? Nothing that is ideal as a sniper will be ideal in a riot. Nothing that is ideal in a riot is ideal for bear. Nothing that is idea for bear is ideal for coyote. The trick is to find one gun that is acceptable for anything short of the largest African game. That is the idea of a GPR.

When selecting a GPR, a few realities need to be established. The first is that one cannot assume he will be supported with any kind of infrastructure or supply. That argues for limiting ammo needs. It also argues for light and handy. It also needs to be powerful enough to deliver a decisive blow at realistic ranges (say 500 yards or so). Jeff Cooper looked at this and came up with the scout rifle concept but there are other ways to have a GPR without the Colonel's rules. A light, handy and reliable .308 bolt gun with a lower power variable scope sure sounds good for this.

Now... about fighting with a deer rifle... I found a local 2 gun match a few years back and decided to try it out. I took my scout rifle and 1911 to see how I could keep up. You know what? I didn't do too poorly. I wasn't in competition for the top spot, but I wouldn't have been with an AR either. I placed mid-pack each time I shot it and stunned several of the shooters there. A 7.5 pound rifle, run by a guy who can actually run it in a fight can keep with better than you'd think, especially for the first few rounds.

One more thing to consider are the legal issues we may find ourselves in shortly. I don't presume to know the future, nor do I wish to submit to tyranny, but it is quite conceivable that we are may not have the choice of fighting with an AR in the future. If that future happens, are you ready to fight with a bolt gun? Could you?

Finally, the fundamentals taught at this class transcend the action. Learning the 5 basic positions isn't exclusive to the bolt gun. Learning the mindset that comes with it are not just for the GPR guys. None of the skills learned would hinder your use of an AR, but you'll also have the option of something with more substance if needed. By the time the class is over, you'll want to find a 2 or 3 gun match to prove to yourself what you just learned works. Try it. You'll be amazed.
 
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Thanks for the thorough response Cliff, it sounds like a scout rifle with a bit more capability if I am reading correctly. Big fan of the concept, but the last time I tried building it, it was a complete disaster. It was more of a “fat scout” at about 9 pounds of 1903a3 because I thought I had to have a thick laminate stock and a 22” Bartlien 3B contour barrel.

Note for others and my future self: stick with a normal sized stock, a lighter barrel profile, and a traditionally mounted optic. This is a GRP, not a precision rifle.

Kinda thinking a Tikka T3 would be a good economical rifle to try this out on. Do you recommend a strict LPVO like the Steiner PX4i or just something with 2 or less magnification on the low end like a Leupold 2.5-8x?

On the topic of the Sig Cross rifle, would you say you would assume its ergonomic issues during the class pertains to it alone or all chassis that are similar in form? Any thoughts about the Q Fix?
 
Thanks for the thorough response Cliff, it sounds like a scout rifle with a bit more capability if I am reading correctly. Big fan of the concept, but the last time I tried building it, it was a complete disaster. It was more of a “fat scout” at about 9 pounds of 1903a3 because I thought I had to have a thick laminate stock and a 22” Bartlien 3B contour barrel.

Note for others and my future self: stick with a normal sized stock, a lighter barrel profile, and a traditionally mounted optic. This is a GRP, not a precision rifle.

Kinda thinking a Tikka T3 would be a good economical rifle to try this out on. Do you recommend a strict LPVO like the Steiner PX4i or just something with 2 or less magnification on the low end like a Leupold 2.5-8x?

On the topic of the Sig Cross rifle, would you say you would assume its ergonomic issues during the class pertains to it alone or all chassis that are similar in form? Any thoughts about the Q Fix?


A T3 with any good quality scope with a low end of 2X would be perfect. The 2-8 would be fine. I had the 2.5-8X Sig BDX and that was pretty good for the class. Lower the better but you don't need a true 1X to run it.

As for the ergonomic issues with the Cross, I think it really is just the chassis style that forces my support hand out so far. I don't think the Q would be any better, although I haven't tried it.

I didn't share this part of the story, but on day 3, my Steyr Scout had a mechanical failure (would fire upon closing the bolt) and my friend was using my Sig Cross. Randy allowed me to use his personal rifle which was one of jeff Cooper's personal prototype scout rifles (Scout VI built on a ZKK 601 action). I got to finish the class using this rifle and what surprised me was how little handicap it was to have a 5 round hinged floorplate magazine. I kept up better than I thought I could. Only a minor handicap over the detachable mag of the Steyr or Cross. It also fit me like a glove.
 
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Overall did you like the DBM compared to a BDL style? I can kinda see the merits of both (fast 10 round mag change or a consistently loaded mag with a slower overall full reload rate).
 
Overall did you like the DBM compared to a BDL style? I can kinda see the merits of both (fast 10 round mag change or a consistently loaded mag with a slower overall full reload rate).

I have a strong preference for the Steyr 5 round mags. The AICS mags were difficult on several levels. They are longer than needed (single stack), didn't seat well without a LOT of force, can't be topped off without removing from the gun and even then, requires force and dexterity and I had several failures where the bolt over-rode the top cartridge.

The Steyr mags on the other hand, are double stack which makes them easier to load and top off. They are flush to the bottom of the gun making it more trim. The double-detent feature makes single loading easier and is a more positive way to secure it.

The BDL style hinged floorplate wasn't hateful. The obvious down side is that you have to open the action to top it off, but it was quicken than I thought it would be.
 
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Thanks for the responses. Toying around with the idea and looking at different optics. Leaning to a T3 for a DBM or a Howa for a floorplate.

Love the concept.
 
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Thanks for the responses. Toying around with the idea and looking at different optics. Leaning to a T3 for a DBM or a Howa for a floorplate.

Love the concept.

Have you seen Scott Van Dorsen's rifles? He does a number of customer builds based on those two rifles. Not sure he has a web site, but he has his own section of the Scout Rifle forum. http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?board=137.0
 
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Son, daughter and I took Randy’s 3 day pistol class years ago.
Great fun and educational too!
Recently acquired a Remington 700 Gen 2 5R .308, might be a good option if I sign up for the class.
However, I changed the stock hinged floor plate an HS precision box mag system.
If I use the shorter, 5 round mags, would that work OK for the class, or should I put the 700 back to stock?
 
Son, daughter and I took Randy’s 3 day pistol class years ago.
Great fun and educational too!
Recently acquired a Remington 700 Gen 2 5R .308, might be a good option if I sign up for the class.
However, I changed the stock hinged floor plate an HS precision box mag system.
If I use the shorter, 5 round mags, would that work OK for the class, or should I put the 700 back to stock?

As long as you have enough mags and can manipulate them quickly, you'll be fine. If you can top off with the mags still in the rifle, so much the better. If neither of those are options, switch back to the hinged floorplate. That Rolling Thunder drill will bring out problems quickly and you need at least 15 rounds on tap. Preferably a few extra to deal with oddly placed mag changes.