Range finding solutings in Night/Dark?

[harry_x1]

Hi all,

What is an easy way to measure distance to a target in dark/night? I have a range finder which I am able to use with my PVS 14. A method that works fine. But just checking if there are some other solutions out there...e.g: are there some range finders which are made specifically for night use (without a PVS 14 etc)?

I also have a thermal monocular, which has a stadiametric range estimator, but that method is not very accurate.

Thanks for your time and attention on this.

Harjeet

 

[TxWelder35]

Are you wanting an on rifle solution or handheld?

 

[harry_x1]

Are you wanting an on rifle solution or handheld?

Anything which is better and easy to execute. Would like to learn about both if possible… thanks

 

[missed]

I have a silencer Co Radius that I use on the night hunts.

 

[TheGerman]

Rifle mounted Radius
Rifle mounted RAPTAR
PLRF15c with PVS14 adapter
Vectronix MOSKITO
Scope reticle + PVS30 + PEQ15 illuminator

I have all of them. MOSKITO with a velcro'd on PEQ15 is the best option.

 

[harry_x1]

Rifle mounted Radius
Rifle mounted RAPTAR
PLRF15c with PVS14 adapter
Vectronix MOSKITO
Scope reticle + PVS30 + PEQ15 illuminator

I have all of them. MOSKITO with a velcro'd on PEQ15 is the best option.

Thank you for sharing so many options. I have the Scope+PVS30+Illuminator option already. How much of diff will the MOSKITO+PEQ15 make in your view? Also where did you get your MOSKITO from. I am unable to find any sellers online as yet.

thanks again for your time and assistance...super grateful.

 

[alfmoonspace]

10k for a Vec MOSKITO right now.

 

[alfmoonspace]

Optics - Large lot of Vectronix demo Vector rangefinders and accessories

I've got a large selection of Vectronix Vector BLRF systems and accessories coming up for sale. These range from Vector 21's that are new in the bag to Vector 1500's that were field demo units. Data cables, 10X Binocular Enhancement units, custom foam hard cases and amagnetic TACT3 tripods...

www.snipershide.com

 

[CoryT]

The Moskito or the JIMs are the top line options, with the Vector/PLRF coupled with a PVS-14 is the next best thing. The Moskito and JIM are not normally commercial items, but they are out there. Nice thing about the Moskito is it's day/night in one unit.

The RAPTER or Radius also works pretty well, but needs to be slaved to a day optic and then the day optic needs a PVS-14/PVS-30 type connected to it. I use a Leupold 12-40 in a Cadex roll cage and can mount the Radius, a PEQ-15 and a M300W thermal with 3x lens together and them put a PVS-14 at the rear or a PVS-26 on the front. While this provides a nice observation package, it's heavy and bulky, time consuming to setup and need tweaking to keep everything aligned.

The Moskito or Vector package gets put on a simple L mount with the spotter. Much less clunky, plus the Vectronix products have a data port that connect to the ballistic computer for 1 click solutions/coordinates.

The Radius is only available used, the RAPTER is available but not cheap, and you'll need a pointer/illuminator anyway. A clip on type unit for the spotter is great, but heavy and you need a rail system to connect it, plus even cheap clip on units are expensive. A 14 on the ocular keeps the price down but limits performance.

A Vector IV or 21 is a far more capable bino LRF system, works well with a 14 and is super in daylight. The Moskito has the image intensifier internal, so no clunky 14 attachment, same LRF performance as the Vector but 3x rather than 7x.

TANSTAAFL.

Primary use case, range requirements, weight/bulk, budget all factor in to the decision. Moskito is the easy button, but cost is an issue. Of course, by the time you actually configure the other options, it's not that much more and will give far better performance overall.

 

[CoryT]

 

[CoryT]

T

 

[CoryT]

That's a Vector Nite, the standard Vector has a bracket to put a PVS-14 on the right eyepiece.

 

[TheGerman]

Thank you for sharing so many options. I have the Scope+PVS30+Illuminator option already. How much of diff will the MOSKITO+PEQ15 make in your view? Also where did you get your MOSKITO from. I am unable to find any sellers online as yet.

thanks again for your time and assistance...super grateful.

Cory touched on most of it as far as equipment differences and capabilities.

The thing not mentioned yet was that the Verctronix units (PLRF, Vector, Moskito) can all be connected to a Trimble running FieldFiringSolutions via a trigger cable. That allows the person using the equipment to range and update FFS instantly without having to input any data manually or come off the equipment.

The reason I like the Moskito or the PLRF15 setup are because after using all of the equipment mentioned above, the handhelds are the most versatile (day/night use) as well as require next to nothing as far as support equipment, storage space or setup time to use and put away. Equipment such as the tripod setup Cory showed above are fantastic in a static position where you will probably never need to displace from quickly, and will have ample time to set it all up and break it all down. Imagine being in a position, having to break that down/stow it, move and then set it all up again (and again), in the dark. It's no longer cool after the 2nd time.

Also with a pvs30 or any clip on, the magnification ranges you can work with are not much higher than what the PLRF or Moskito can give you, so having a 60x Spotter 60 isn't that much of an advantage.

Moskito/PLRF are hand held and with a PEQ attached to it at night can have the spotter both search for/locate targets, illuminate/designate targets as well as give them a lightweight tool to allow them to quickly monitor your flanks while in position. When you want to relocate/displace, slide it in its pouch in the ruck and go.

If searching for this, your best bet is to keep an eye out for a Moskito (they exist but are ultra rare) and you might have much better luck with a PLRF15c with Ashbury PVS14 adapter to get about 80% of the same performance as the Moskito.

 

[CoryT]

I’ve actually got a Moskito available, one only.

 

[deersniper]

Raptar s or ses is my vote

 

[CoryT]

The big downside to the RAPTER / Radius setup is setup. Either you dedicate the unit to a rifle, or you have it slaved to a spotter. You could rezero it every time I suppose, moving it around.

Setup of that first system is time consuming, and you really don’t want to move it around much. Good for a long term FFP/hide, but that’s it.

The Vector setup is fast and easy, not locked to a gun, and fantastic in daylight as well.

 

[deersniper]

Setup of that first system is time consuming, and you really don’t want to move it around much. Good for a long term FFP/hide, but that’s it.

I don’t follow. Are you saying it loses zero ?

you can save 6 or 8 profiles on it. It’s a super quick solution especially with tracir
Vectr seems like a tank to carry I would think a plrf15 with a 14 or a thermal scope attached to a radius would be much easier

 

[harry_x1]

Am really lucky to receive such advice for free via this forum. This is super helpful.

Couple of more questions, if someone has insight.

Does anyone have experience with JIM (LR/Compact). Seems it has thermal capability and might work better for detection at long range vs an electro optical system? What are your thoughts on JIM vs a Moskito?

Can one buy JIM somewhere? If yes, what kind of price are we looking at. Any pointers will help.

@CoryT : Sending you a PM regarding moskito. Would love to discuss if a JIM can also be procured somehow.

 

[deersniper]

Heard jimlr sell for 30+

 

[harry_x1]

Heard jimlr sell for 30+

Do you know who sells them and where ?

 

[deersniper]

Do you know who sells them and where ?

Post a wtb ad

 

[alfmoonspace]

Damn Harry

 

[4thandbleek]

Don't own one but i have used the LaserWorks LRNV009, easy to use and accurate is how i will describe it.

 

[harry_x1]

Damn Harry

View attachment 7721884

Freedom aint cheap....we sikhs have a traditional saying, it is better to go with only one meal a day, but your weapons/arms should be top notch (the best).

 

[harry_x1]

ok guys, I am kind of honing towards an IR spotter+laser range finder. JIM is one solution but price is just too high (32k). I see there are cheaper (~$6k) but less capable options like Pulsar Accolade 2 LRF XP50. Detection upto 1800. How do you think Pulsar works as a detection and ranging tool? JIM literature claims that it can detect human sized targets in excess of 6000 meter. Is that practically true? Has anyone used JIM and can share their feedback on that claim? My guess is that you probably cannot detect a human more than 2500 yards even with an IR, given how small the IR signature will be.

Also, has anyone used the Pulsar Accolade 2 LRF and can share their feedback/experience.

thanks all for the time and assistance. I am super grateful.


Best
Harjeet

 

[TheHorta]

I slave a Raptar-S via TracIR to a SkeetIR-X or UTM-X. I have put together a “prototype” twin bino Skeets, both with TP 2-4x afocal magnifiers, and the Rap-S with TracIR cable. This give you true in-display ranging and AB firing solution. The Rap-S can also be slaved via BT to a Kestrel, if desired. I’ve been able to range ~4Km reliably in some harsh conditions that no Vis/NV-only would be able to see or detect.

 

[deersniper]

My guess is that you probably cannot detect a human more than 2500 yards even with an IR, given how small the IR signature will be

You can see cow turds at 1000 so people at 2500 should be easy

 

[Jumper]

Hello Hide!

I’ve got a nice condition MK VII with a 2000 ish FOM WP Elbit tube installed into it. Tube has a 5 year warranty and lifetime service warranty through me on the unit. It ranges a water tower day or night that is 3800 meters from my shop.

Comes with full kit. Including bag, quick... https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...inder-with-white-phosphor-elbit-tube.7095233/

This is for sale in the PX.

 

[deersniper]

Hello Hide!

I’ve got a nice condition MK VII with a 2000 ish FOM WP Elbit tube installed into it. Tube has a 5 year warranty and lifetime service warranty through me on the unit. It ranges a water tower day or night that is 3800 meters from my shop.

Comes with full kit. Including bag, quick... https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...inder-with-white-phosphor-elbit-tube.7095233/

This is for sale in the PX.

Are you surgeon shooters troll account lol

 

[Jumper]

Are you surgeon shooters troll account lol

Ha. No, not hardly. I keep my eye open for this unit as it pops up from time to time. Saw it in the PX and saw this thread so I thought I'd offer an option. I thought The Horta had one and spoke highly of it. Not trying to troll anyone. Just following with interest.

 

[CoryT]

The Pulsar is just OK, as with much of this type equipment made for the civilian market the usable ranges are about half the specified numbers. The rangefinder hits a 12x12 inch target at 600, but not 700. Note that it's visible in NVG's. I personally find the color pallet more annoying than helpful.

Now a word on DRIA.

Detection means just that. I see a heat signature over yonder. Could be anything that's hotter that the surroundings at this point, it just has to light up a pixel in the display. So, does the JIM detect people at 6K? Well I've used it and it's cousin, the LRTV and at least I can say it sees a person at 3K. Now can you tell it's a person? Not hardly. The LR version of the JIM claims 6k, the unit I was using is a shorter range system and claims 3.2K, so I would not be surprised if it works.

Recognition means you can distinguish the difference between say a human and a cow. That requires that enough pixel be activated to form an outline. Humans are pretty good at seeing outlines and making a mental connection to the actual object. That is normally about 1/4 to 1/3 of the detection range, depending on the pitch/resolution of the sensor and display. Note that adding digital zoom or optical zoom on the image does not really help here, you need optical zoom on the objective side to increase that range.

Identification means you can tell one of the same object from another of the same type. The guy on the left is John, the guy on the right is Jim. That will be 1/3 to 1/2 the recognition range. You need enough detail in the image to make positive ID in some way. Is that a dog, or a coyote?

Aiming means you have a way to align the weapon on the desired point. Laser pointer or contrasting reticle. That's normally the easy part, at least by the time you get to identification range.

Thermal excels at detection, is good at recognition and it's OK at identification and aiming. I2 is not great at detection, OK at recognition, very good at identification and aiming. This is why we so often want a fused system, or at least have both sensors available as they compliment each other. That's why there is a thermal device atop my spotter equipped with I2.

The thermal tells me where to look, the I2 identifies and ranges, then you can engage with either type of sight.

I find most thermal devices hard to use in daylight, so my rangefinder system is I2 and daylight capable. At some point, everyone has a budget problem and I don't really want a night only solution where I could have day/night for the same money.

 

[harry_x1]

View attachment 7721487View attachment 7721488

@CoryT - thanks for sharing this Bud. Can you break this down a bit for me to understand what all equipment is shown here, how it comes together and is used,..thanks. If you can do the same for vector set up that will be great as well. In case there is some youtube video/link, that will be super convinient. Appreciate all the help.

 

[CoryT]

On top is an M300W with a 3x optical magnifier, this is running off the Anker battery pack. Thermals eat batteries like candy, so you really want external battery capabilities. Below the battery pack is a Silencerco Radius LRF. No longer made, next closest thing is a Wilcox RAPTAR. On the optics rail there is a PVS-27. The bottom end magnification on the Leupold spotter is 12x, the 27 provides quite a good image. On the right side there is a Luna ELIR laser illumination. I run that, or a DBAL-A2 or a MAWL.

This provides thermal and I2 on the same mount and the LRF is slaved to the spotter reticle. The Radius uses a 905nm laser, so I can see the beam on the target.

The Vector setup is a bit cleaner. Spotter on the left cowitnessed to the Vector. Then an Attila 200 for laser pointer and illum. With the standard Vector, we connect a PVS 14 to the right eyepiece and set the display to night mode. The spotter can have either a clip on like the 27 or another PVS-14. Using the right mounts the 14s are basically locked in place. Then I just scan with the thermal from a neck lanyard.

I normally wear a bino NVG, like the DTNVS where I can flip up one side to view either the Vector or the spotter. I often don’t bother with the spotter though, only using that if I’m planning on shooting past 600-800, otherwise the Vector does the spotting no problem. Now with just that on the tripod, I can just fold the legs and pickup and move. The big spotter setup is too bulky to really do that.