Read between the lines

[Gunfighter14e2]

If you can't put you hands on your money now an are in debt, someone else is controlling your life,....no matter how you try an spin it.

Bankruptcy filings rising across the country and it could get worse

Bankruptcies are back — flashing warnings that more Americans are knee-deep in debt in big cities like New York. While total bankruptcy petitions nationwide by consumers and businesses are still we…

nypost.com

Investors Ponder Negative Bond Yields in the U.S.

A steep slide in U.S. government-bond yields last week wrong-footed investors and left some pondering what was once unthinkable: whether interest rates in America could one day turn negative.

www.wsj.com

Depositors Are Next as Nordic Banks Buckle Under Negative Rates

(Bloomberg) -- Ever since negative interest rates became a thing, banks have been too afraid to pass them on to retail depositors. That may be about to change.In Scandinavia, where sub-zero rates have been the norm longer than most other places, the finance industry has undergone several drastic...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

But but but, they say debt is good.

Laughing, it is for them(CC companys an .gov). I was lucky my Grandfather told me about his first hand "depression experience" an how pie in the sky worked on people, to push them into glutton an greed back then. Many are about to reap what they have sowed,...

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Many I know will loose it all if they loae their job for more than 3 months. They also tend to buy $1k phones every 6 months. I am still on a 6yr old phone, haha.

I know of many who have to have (per their own lips) at least 10 hrs of OT every week just to make their bills, before food, gas an other stuff. Many have said if they lost their job they could not make it past 2 weeks w/o having to start selling off stuff. They dug the hole but seem to like digging it deeper, for some reason.

Many of them blame the bank an C/C company's. I just tell them when fishing for suckers (aka slaves), one just has to use the correct bait.

 

[Alabusa]

I started in 2009 getting as out of debt as possible. I have no credit cards, no vehicle loans and no personal loans. The only debt I have is a mortgage. The downside to a zero(as lose as possible) credit profile is it hurts your credit score.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Pay it all off as quick as you can.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

The downside to a zero(as lose as possible) credit profile is it hurts your credit score.

An that is a problem how, if you live within your means?
Credit scores are bait, for the rabbit path in becoming a slave.

 

[Alabusa]

An that is a problem how, if you live within your means?
Credit scores are bait, for the rabbit path in becoming a slave.

Not a problem for me as I save my pennies and pay cash for everything.

 

[deersniper]

I started in 2009 getting as out of debt as possible. I have no credit cards, no vehicle loans and no personal loans. The only debt I have is a mortgage. The downside to a zero(as lose as possible) credit profile is it hurts your credit score.

Credit cards are good protection for purchases and fraud.

I avoid using a debit card whenever possible.

 

[deersniper]

An that is a problem how, if you live within your means?
Credit scores are bait, for the rabbit path in becoming a slave.

Most people don't buy businesses/houses/land outright. A higher credit score saves a lot of money.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Most people don't buy businesses/houses/land outright. A higher credit score saves a lot of money.

It's nothing more than bait.
Chase made enough off slaves to do this

Chase Bank wipes out credit card debt for Canadian customers

Customers say they were "a little confused" when they found out they no longer owed anything.

news.sky.com

You can spin it many ways but the bottom line is if you owe, it's not yours, an others control you. Just like PP being anti gun but look at how many support them? It's the Bait an fishing is good, an the catching is more an more outstanding, every day...

 

[spurrnch]

I have no debt at this point having been diligent over the last 20 year to pay off everything. I must admit there are times I wonder if that's the right answer (playing devils advocate a bit). I watch in frustration as people spend foolishly with (from my perspective) no possible way of ever paying it back and then simply walk away from the debt. Maybe they have the right idea - get everything they want without paying for it. Absolutely pisses me off but the government and our education system teaches this and promotes it. Hard to see how we ever get out of this hole.

 

[FS1]

I started in 2009 getting as out of debt as possible. I have no credit cards, no vehicle loans and no personal loans. The only debt I have is a mortgage. The downside to a zero(as lose as possible) credit profile is it hurts your credit score.

I owe nothing not even a mortgage yet my credit score is very high. Paying off a SBA loan early did not hurt that.

I have an AMEX I use for almost everything and pay it in full every month. They notice things like that. It will keep your credit score high.

Everyone tries to loan me money, everyone. When you are out of play they want you back.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

When you are out of play they want you back.

Yes they do, an it's funny how the bait changes. From wanting to own you, to we will pay you the highest interest in the country if you deposit XXX,XXX into an account with us. Laughing,...

 

[deersniper]

Buying outright is the only way to go.

BUT you need determination, resourcefulness and time to be able to save them pennies.

Lol good wat to miss out on building wealth.

Appreciating assets = debt ok
Depreciating assets should be bought with cash unless starting a business or something big

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Lol good wat to miss out on building wealth.

Ask the people who went thru the depression what true wealth, was back then,.....

 

[DRandi]

Sadly I’m back in that trap. Me and the wife had almost paid off every single debt, cars, student loans, credit cards. Between me, her, and raising two kids we were down to only $6k debt. Then life happened. Had to move, filter died on the well, L4 disc in my spine decided on a early retirement... lol.

Now I have to climb that dam mountain again. Really sucks, but did it once, and I’ll do it again. Got to be smart with the loan offers. Take small ones that have zero to no interest during the promotion period. Consolidate debt onto it that can be paid off during the promo period. Wash rinse repeat. Taking small bites to consolidate interest free.

 

[MtnCreek]

Last vehicle I bought I wrote a check for. I wasn't going to pay 8%. I financed a lawn mower. 0% and no cash discount available. That makes sense to me.

Want to freak someone out, go make a large purchase with cash.

 

[MtnCreek]

Fuck it, charge up as much as you can! Bernie is coming and he’s going to deliver us from our debts and let the government pay for it.

At the cost of your 401k, other investments and whatever amount they consider excessive in your bank accounts. That will happen one day.

 

[deersniper]

Go buy something $8000 or more with cash cash. And the .gov tyrants will come steal it. Fourth amendment doesn't apply to you when you have cash or other assets to steal.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Accumilate gold. The actual metal.

 

[deersniper]

Platinum is undervalued at the moment

 

[oneshot86]

Last vehicle I bought I wrote a check for. I wasn't going to pay 8%. I financed a lawn mower. 0% and no cash discount available. That makes sense to me.

Want to freak someone out, go make a large purchase with cash.

like literally w cash, shoebox style

 

[FS1]

Last vehicle I bought I wrote a check for. I wasn't going to pay 8%. I financed a lawn mower. 0% and no cash discount available. That makes sense to me.

Want to freak someone out, go make a large purchase with cash.

The auto dealer treats you like you have the plague when you pay cash. The closer makes nothing and it pisses them off. As soon I get in the closers office I say no toys on the contract and they go into manic depression. Knowing you know the terminology tells them you won't bite on all the shit they were about to make money on. ie insurance, extended warranty, or financing.

 

[ArmyJerry]

I borrowd for all my 4 wheeled vehicles @ zero percent or close to it and invested my cash.

Last vehicle I bought I wrote a check for. I wasn't going to pay 8%. I financed a lawn mower. 0% and no cash discount available. That makes sense to me.

Want to freak someone out, go make a large purchase with cash.

 

[308pirate]

The auto dealer treats you like you have the plague when you pay cash. The closer makes nothing and it pisses them off. As soon I get in the closers office I say no toys on the contract and they go into manic depression. Knowing you know the terminology tells them you won't bite on all the shit they were about to make money on. ie insurance, extended warranty, or financing.

And walk out if they push back. Like literally open the door and walk away. Only had to do that once.

People who are not afraid to use their leverage win.

 

[FS1]

And walk out if they push back. Like literally open the door and walk away. Only had to do that once.

People who are not afraid to use their leverage win.

Go in at the end of month not the beginning. Best deal is at the end of year. One sale on Dec 31 can effect their total sales bonus positively and it can even make a difference on how many cars they get next year. Buy smart, buy when they need you more than you need them. Also during Holiday promo's the dealer has been provided factory vouchers of $500 that they can apply to any sale. I have gotten two on the same vehicle. Last day of the sale is when you go.

Most times I am out the door way below sticker. They say that can't be done, well I do it all the time.

 

[Alabusa]

I owe nothing not even a mortgage yet my credit score is very high. Paying off a SBA loan early did not hurt that.

I have an AMEX I use for almost everything and pay it in full every month. They notice things like that. It will keep your credit score high.

Everyone tries to loan me money, everyone. When you are out of play they want you back.

My banker calls me every now and again, trying g to get me to buy something. I just cant bring myself to go sign my name on the line.

FYI....my score is still in the 700s but when I started paying stuff off it was 811.

 

[MtnCreek]

My banker calls me every now and again, trying g to get me to buy something. I just cant bring myself to go sign my name on the line.

FYI....my score is still in the 700s but when I started paying stuff off it was 811.

My score dropped about 50pts when a few revolving accounts closed due to inactivity. I was more of a risk when my score was its highest, but they don't see it that way.

 

[Dewey7271]

Keep your eyes on new housing starts, existing sales in mid-level areas, new mortgage placement.
You don’t need to watch nationally as much as 5-6 key areas.
Watch for GDP dips that have the potential to prolong also.
Also discrepancies from norms. For example, ripple effect of interest rate drop in mortgages and refis. Interest rate drop versus increase in productivity also.
Sounds pretty complex but fairly easy to find and track these.
Last, if you have time, watch default rates on loans.

 

[Dewey7271]

Forgot.
Keep an eye on potential pension defaults also. That could cause a pretty significant break in the market.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I don't think debt is good, and haven't for a long time.

My last car loan was purchased in 1976, my only current indebtedness is my VA mortgage.

If I don't have the money onhand, I don't buy it.

Debt incurred by my business pauperized me, as did some Biblical medical debt. It took over a decade to nullify; but I've never filed for bankruptcy.

It ain't easy bein' me, but with dedication, it works.

Paying in advance is part of my strategy. The 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan Crew had a complete transmission failure last week.

I had bought it for cash in 2011; 7 months old, 5,000 miles on the odometer, a former Enterprise rental van. That day, the VA had finally approved my claim after 7 years, and I had $152,000 deposited in the acount that morning, no warning whatsoever. I was buying my Wife a real car.

I was able to get it declared a certified used car. I saved a lot, buying it used, and put every bit of the savings into warrantees, I bought every one that was available, including the one nobody buys, the ultimate one, Chrysler Maximum Plus. It picks up when the others end, and keeps on going until 999,999 miles.

In that dealership, we were the only non-commercial vehicle so covered.

Fast forward to today...

A transmission replacement for my car runs $3,330, pre-tax. But the transmission is covered under Maximum Plus. The current odometer reading is 161,xxx miles.

I pay $150.

Funny enough, while the car is (still) in the shop, we are driving a 2018 Dodge Grand Caravan rented from Enterprise.

Greg

 

[Dewey7271]

And check your international holdings (401k, IRA, etc) for Argentina exposure. That place will be in the tank within 12 months.

 

[kenny1773]

Some of the comments here about debt lol

Debt is a tool like anything else
Study it
Understand it
then use it to your advantage

The slaves and sheep are the ones that for whatever reason don't take the time to understand it and learn how to use it to their advantage.

Without getting too personal, I can tell you that there are a few times in my life where I really needed to borrow money
Cars - necessary money loss in today's society unless you live in a big city with good public trans, be frugal
Houses - only buy houses that are going to increase in value, look around, its not that hard to figure out, base on cost per square foot of finished space and land, not on oohhh look pretty kitchen counter tops lol

If you use debt intelligently, it really won't do damage to you longer term, but there is a cost to using it.
BUT
You need to be on the side that says and knows having debt is a TEMPORARY condition

Two theories on money and debt, I can see the win on either side depending on who you are and what you want

Make money and be financially independent at some point in your life (use debt wisely, use money wisely) - this isn't as hard as it may sound, but you give up $1000 iPhones every other year. (and a bunch of other stupid shit you don't need)
or
People that die a million dollars in debt, even though this isn't my plan, I get where people see this as a win. As long as they have no children or anything that may have benefited from any wealth they may have had.

 

[The DFC]

Credit cards are good protection for purchases and fraud.

I avoid using a debit card whenever possible.

Plus you get points, miles, whatever else-for free!

 

[The DFC]

So do you cash only dudes literally not have credit cards at all or you just pay them off when due? HTF do you live without paying with a CC?

 

[Huskydriver]

I don't think debt is good, and haven't for a long time.

My last car loan was purchased in 1976, my only current indebtedness is my VA mortgage.

If I don't have the money onhand, I don't buy it.

Debt incurred by my business pauperized me, as did some Biblical medical debt. It took over a decade to nullify; but I've never filed for bankruptcy.

It ain't easy bein' me, but with dedication, it works.

Paying in advance is part of my strategy. The 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan Crew had a complete transmission failure last week.

I had bought it for cash in 2011; 7 months old, 5,000 miles on the odometer, a former Enterprise rental van. That day, the VA had finally approved my claim after 7 years, and I had $152,000 deposited in the acount that morning, no warning whatsoever. I was buying my Wife a real car.

I was able to get it declared a certified used car. I saved a lot, buying it used, and put every bit of the savings into warrantees, I bought every one that was available, including the one nobody buys, the ultimate one, Chrysler Maximum Plus. It picks up when the others end, and keeps on going until 999,999 miles.

In that dealership, we were the only non-commercial vehicle so covered.

Fast forward to today...

A transmission replacement for my car runs $3,330, pre-tax. But the transmission is covered under Maximum Plus. The current odometer reading is 161,xxx miles.

I pay $150.

Funny enough, while the car is (still) in the shop, we are driving a 2018 Dodge Grand Caravan rented from Enterprise.

Greg

I would be embarrassed to openly claim I'm rolling in a mini van yet alone a Chrysler mini van haha

 

[oneshot86]

The auto dealer treats you like you have the plague when you pay cash. The closer makes nothing and it pisses them off. As soon I get in the closers office I say no toys on the contract and they go into manic depression. Knowing you know the terminology tells them you won't bite on all the shit they were about to make money on. ie insurance, extended warranty, or financing.

when you say cash, do you mean, a check? Routed moneys? or a shoe box of franklins?
the owner of the franchise likes the real cash, screw who runs the show for him

 

[kenny1773]

As for buying NEW cars straight up with cash, as a general rule I don't

Almost everyone that sells new cars has a simple interest loan on autos these days
initiate the loan with enough cash down to get the best rate (on a $25k car, something like $10k gets you there)
pay whatever amount is on the loan in full in 3 payments

This not only helps to get a good price on the car (dealer does make money on the loan), but it also builds your credit score like crazy
Yes there is a small cost of interest for 90 days, with 1.9% loan rates today, who cares (it will be less than $50)

by cash, I personally mean using a check, I would not walk into a dealer with $10k in cash in my pocket

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

So do you cash only dudes literally not have credit cards at all or you just pay them off when due? HTF do you live without paying with a CC?

I pay everything local with cash or check, an get way better pricing that way. I have two CC's an use both for internet purchases only, an they get paid in full the day the bill comes, not the next day but that day. I've always lived within my means. My second an last mortgage was paid off in 1983, I don't partake of their lies,...
Only a rich man can afford to finance said both my Great Uncle an Grandfather, I never understood that for years upon years. Those that tell you debt is good are living off of your wallet but, would like more,...

I have better things to do than being required to eat shit at a job just so I can have the address, or toys. That's not living, that's being a slave to the system.

 

[The DFC]

I pay everything local with cash or check, an get way better pricing that way. I have two CC's an use both for internet purchases only, an they get paid in full the day the bill comes, not the next day but that day. I've always lived within my means. My second an last mortgage was paid off in 1983, I don't partake of their lies,...
Only a rich man can afford to finance said both my Great Uncle an Grandfather, I never understood that for years upon years. Those that tell you debt is good are living off of your wallet but, would like more,...

I have better things to do than being required to eat shit at a job just so I can have the address, or toys. That's not living, that's being a slave to the system.

OK so you do use CC-just pay them off. That's what I do.

 

[EM92wx]

Things I live buy. Don't buy something I cannot afford to pay off within a reasonable amount of time. I'm debt free. I use a credit card and pay it off monthly. I shop for credit and used a Credit Union for car loans, cheaper by about a point. I started saving early. Real early. Whenever I got a raise I put it in the bank. Don't treat your savings like something you give to when you have extra, make it a bill. I paid all my homes off early. Live below your means. There is a difference between a need and a want. Learn what that means. Save till it hurts. It takes awhile but you'll get there and yes, you can still enjoy the journey.

 

[buffalowinter]

Pay them off every month. Rewards cards are free money. I use a card for everything. I had a GM rewards card and pretty much got a GM Geo Metro for free. My wife and I literaly pushed her old Datsun B-210 for trade-in into the dealership as it died about a block away. Great car for my daily 15 mile commute to base. Right now I have a Cabela's card...got enough already for a very nice free gun for Christmas. Cabela's has a huge used gun web-site....Cabela's Gun library.

 

[isofahunter]

Debt with a plan is a very useful tool. Debt just because I can is a road to ruin.

 

[013]

I pay for everything with credit cards. Hardly ever carry cash. Then I pay the balance in full by the due date. Same as buying with cash but with all the benefits. I haven't paid a penny in interest for over 25 years. My credit score is in the 800's. Works for me.

Only exceptions are mortgage and car loan.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I haven't paid a penny in interest for over 25 years.

Interest is one thing, but 3-5% extra that the merchant charges for everything in the store is.

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

The problem is people don’t understand how money works or cash flow.

Being debt free is silly and you are destroying your ability to accumulate wealth by using that strategy. And you will be constantly bottle necked on your cash flow. Money should come in and out instantly to a spot where you can have a positive return on investment.

Debt is leverage. Leverage helps you accumulate wealth at a much higher rate.
Here is an example: paying off a mortgage. Bad idea. Mortgage interest is 3.6% fixed...plus you can claim interest paid...so your realized interest is actually around 2.1-2.2% if you are in the 40% income tax bracket. Take that extra 500 you are putting towards your mortgage and invest it. You should return 5%-8.9% over a 30yr period depending on your risk tolerance etc.
So you are basically throwing away 3-6% return on your money so you can say you are debt free.

Another thing...people saying you pay cash for new cars. That is not smart use of your money either. Buy cheap beater cars that have had all the depreciation sucked out of them. A new vehicle depreciates 3-4,000 per year. That money can be used to purchase income properties or invest in the market/gold/bonds etc depending on your risk tolerance or investment objectives etc. If you have to have a new car then finance it at a lower rate than your investment yield less income tax rate.

Credit cards are amazing. You receive a 1-5% bonus on the money you charge. So paying cash you are deciding that you pay more for every purchase. Just pay it off on the day it is due every month. Plus they are floating your average balance for 30days. That will add up to thousands over a lifetime. Plus cards are much easier to project your monthly and annual budgets. And all the added benefits of warranty extension etc.

Sounds to me like too many people are drinking the Dave Ramsey koolaid. Debt free life is a wide brush stroke that slows down wealth accumulation for way too many people. He is doing a disservice to those that can get a grasp of how money can be put to work.

If you are bad with money then fine be debt free.

I’ve got tons and tons of debt. But it is all written on appreciating assets or income streams. I also have never bought a vehicle under 150k miles. Do all my own maintenance and wrenching. Never spend money on electronics or products that provide a service. Buy used as much as possible.

One thing to remember is if you can borrow money less than your return on investment minus risk factor then you should do it.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

So you think wealth is money? Good for you, enjoy the coming margin call,... Debt is just a way to enslave people,.... always has been always will be.

 

[DukeGSP]

I work hard for my money and I like to have nice things. Cars depreciate so I've never felt like I had to have the newest and greatest. homes are investments so I built my house last year and of course that was followed with a monthly mortgage payment. i'm only 30 so I think doing it early in life was better than doing it later. I think as long as you're responsible with your money no serious debt (under 5K) is life changing/altering. everyone has an opinion on how money should be saved or spent. we're not promised tomorrow and people who save for retirement aren't promised they'll get to enjoy it all. I'm not saying you should open every credit card you possibly can and live like you won't the lottery but, life is too short to just sit around stuffing your mattress full of money. that shit is too stressful.

 

[RTH1800]

Save pennies and you will end up with a pile of pennies.
Debt is a wealth building tool. If you buy undervalued assets, assets that will go up in value or assets that generate revenue beyond the debt service level you are building wealth.
When fortune 500 companies merge they take on a lot of debt.
If you have a 20 year old kid with no assets, loan him the money to purchase Amazon from Bezos he is bound to win.
Just be smart about debt. I wish I had taken on more debt, bought more assets etc.
DEBT IS GOOD.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Interest is one thing, but 3-5% extra that the merchant charges for everything in the store is.

So few folks actually understand the national sales tax the banking industry has setup to help them increase their income.
I bet even fewer have ever bothered to negotiate with the place they buy from and ask if they could get a 2% discount for paying cash instead of card.
Lots of smaller places will, just like they'll give you a discount for buying direct from them on the phone and Not on Amazon / eBay etc.

I usually find smaller places are very interested in discounting you the fees you make them NOT have to pay since they get the same and get a sale.
Bigger places usually couldn't care less as you never actually talk to anyone that has a personal stake in the money.