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Advanced Marksmanship recoil question?

K

Kinsman09

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Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 6, 2010
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First I am not a precision shooter and do not at this point shoot long range. I do however want to be a better shooter and have been reading the threads here at snipers hide. I have tried to apply them as best as possible but my problem is that when I get straight behind the rifle or to the left a little(I’m a right handed shooter) when the rifle recoils it goes up and to the left and comes down way off target. Even when I manage to get it to come straight back (up & back down somewhat on target) I cannot “see the impact of the bullet. I am shooting a fairly light rifle (7.5lbs all up) in .30-06cal. (165gr.bullets at 2800fps). So here is my question- is rifle weight/recoil a factor when shooting the way you guys do (I assume). I see the rifle pics/vids and all are heavy/light caliber, muzzle braked Ext. Does this factor in on staying on target through the recoil or “driving the rifle” as put here?

Thanks for your comments ahead of time and I will read/respond to them as time permits.
D
 
Re: recoil question?

Thanks I’ve read that thread already; I obviously did not clarify my question right.

Here’s how I see it. If you take a rifle and put the butt against a rock and are able to fire it with out disturbing it. The rifle will recoil – with no place to go (big rock behind it) it will go in the path of least resistance (law of nature). Assuming there is no tork on the rifle (left or right) it will recoil up. So my assumption is that with a muzzle brake (venting gases up to keep barrel down) weight of rifle (13–20lbs) and light recoiling cartridges allows you precision shooters to “drive the rifle”? I’ve seen the video of the guys shooting “bipods don’t hop” and to me the rifle looked to be 13-15lbs, suppressed, and of a short action cartridge (308,260, ext.) this will all enable the shooter to “drive the rifle” as the recoil is all but gone from weight (absorption), suppression and only about 12 to 18 foot pounds of recoil. Or am I wrong on this line of thought and if so explain.
 
Re: recoil question?

Yes, weight is part of controlling recoil, as well as mass behind the rifle in the correct position and the brake.
Few people, If any could control the recoil of a 7.5 lb. rifle as comfortably as a 15 - 17 pound rifle, chambered in a cartridge of much recoil.
For the most part, you have already answered your own question...good luck and shoot safe!
 
Re: recoil question?

Yes. Several times.

Perceived reoil involves force acting on mass over time.

Reduce the force, increase the mass, lengthen the time, any/all of these will help reduce felt recoil.

Back when Uncle Sugar adopted the .30-'06, a big part of the question was about the limits of recoil that could be tolerated by the average American young dude on a sustained basis. The .30-'06 (with 150gr FMJ) was deemed to be about the limit. Your firearm generates at least as much recoil, so anything involving recoil, you're gonna be feeling it. Samesame for returning ontarget as part of the NPA (Natural Point of Aim).

A lighter recoiling cartridge could be in order. Many of us have selected .260 and 140-ish bullets (or .243 and 115-ish bullets) for this reason.

I don't like Muzzle Brakes, but they can help keep the muzzle down, some.

More mass in the system can help. Ballast in/on the stock, a Lead Sled, or some other means of increasing the mass the chambering must move before it gets to you, all these things can help, too.

Time, that's interesting. I haven't worked on that just yet.

I use a sling, with my supporting arm's elbow holding it down against the ground (yeah, it's unorthodox) to restrict muzzle flip.

I've described the method in detail so many times now that if I have to do it again, I'll likely zone out in boredom. I'm sure it's in there with all that other stuff you tell us you've already read.

Greg
 
Re: recoil question?

I will have to have Jacob do a lesson with one of the hunting rifles, the pencil thin stuff in the heavy calibers.

What you don't see is while I am using a pretty standard tactical rifle. (Heavy in your description) chambered in 308, which is pretty common for the videos on You Tube. Jacob in fact shoots a 300WM and 7WSM in many of the online training lessons.

I will have him do a lesson with a hunting rifle, never the less.
 
Re: recoil question?

Thanks!
To all who participated in my discussion. I have walked away with some knowledge and look forward to viewing the Videos on the hunting rifle.
Thanks again D
 
Re: recoil question?

Elk, a rifle will recoil in the exact opposite direction of the projectile (equal and opposite).

If your rifle is jumping off target, it is because it is recoiling into a surface that creates alternate vectors.

If a rifle is suported against a rock, or a sholder. That is both perpendicular to and the same level as the bore, it will recoil strait back into said object and all the energy will be transmitted to the object. The rifle will not move.

If the object is not perpandicular, it will "bounce" in the opposite direction of the angle. (Like a pool ball bouncing off a rail).

If the object is below the bore, the rifle will rotate upwards.

Weight and brakes will reduce the amount of force, but the physics are all the same.
 
Re: recoil question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Elk, a rifle will recoil in the exact opposite direction of the projectile (equal and opposite).

If your rifle is jumping off target, it is because it is recoiling into a surface that creates alternate vectors.

If a rifle is suported against a rock, or a sholder. That is both perpendicular to and the same level as the bore, it will recoil strait back into said object and all the energy will be transmitted to the object. The rifle will not move.

If the object is not perpandicular, it will "bounce" in the opposite direction of the angle. (Like a pool ball bouncing off a rail).

If the object is below the bore, the rifle will rotate upwards.

Weight and brakes will reduce the amount of force, but the physics are all the same.</div></div>

You seem to have more than a general understanding about recoil. From your basis of understanding, what sort of geometry exists beginning with the rifle shouldered with line of bore at rest and ending with line of bore at bullet exit. I have notions on it all with the belief that if the angle/arc effect can be controlled as to be made consistent from shot to shot there is the possibility for zero bullet displacement from shot to shot. When I control my position to a molecular level I can get a few shots usually to go through an earlier hole vacated by one of my bullets, and I'm attributing this to having no divergence in the angle/arc between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit. Of course, if recoil were indeed controllable to make it just go rearward along the axis of the bore I suppose there could conceivably be no angle/arc, or it would be so minuscule as to not be important except at distance. Do you have any thoughts about this. I read everything I can get my hands on regarding good shooting and so far follow-through is the only thing which would describe somewhat what I'm pondering here. Also, it seems that hi-speed video and a visible laser attached to a rifle would shed some light on it, no pun intended. At any rate, we all know we need to control the rifle until recoil subsides, yet, wouldn't a good graphic illustration of the effects of recoil help us to see why follow through is important.
 
Re: recoil question?

Sterling,

Sounds like you are way more ahead of the curve than most (from your creds and your posts, I know this to be true).

From a theoretical physics standpoint, if one could control and absorb all of the the force produced (recoil) and the rifle would remain in the exact same possition throughout all stages of firing, every shot would go in the same hole. The problem, as you know, is that there are way to many factors to control.

One that can be controled is recoil control. If the rifle only goes straight back, liniarly, then the bore angle would not change from time of aim to time of bullet exit.

The problem from an angular/arc standpoint is that there is a measurable amount of time between touching off the trigger and the bullet exiting the bore. Any change in the alaignment will have an impact on the deviation of bore vector. If the muzzle is pointed slightly higher at bullet exit then at rest, it will effect the shot. If this is done the exact same every time, the you will still have presicion.

If one could absorb all the recoil and keep it 100% liniar, there would be no theoretical deviation.

To accomplish this is harder than it sounds though. ANY non-liniar influence will have an impact...pulling the trigger at an angle...pressure from your head at an angle...sling tension at an angle...shoulder at an angle, not to mention any force above or below the line of bore.

If one could actually control all the above factors, then you have to contend with minute differences in projectiles, powder burn rates and volumes, case inconsistencies, atmospheric conditions, wind, sun, etc.

Kind of forboding when you think about it. But, it really make you appreciated a 1/2 inch group...there are a lot of things that have to go right for that to happen.

Sorry for the rambling.
 
Re: recoil question?

It is a very interesting subject. Only on one occasion was I literally able to put em all in one hole, and just 5 rounds, but, still it's the goal, zero displacement.

I actually think the AR style rifles, both semi-auto and bolt designs, like the Tubb 2000, give shooters a very compliant design for recoil management, from which zero displacement might be realized more so than possible it would appear when shooting a traditionally stocked bolt gun, who knows, yet, at any rate, it seems that being able to master recoil is what today separates the best shooters from others. I do wonder why this topic is not discussed much, with it appearing to be so important. I certainly don't think it's obvious to everyone. If that was the case I think folks would be more conscious of the need to perfect their position to identical dimensions for every shot, which, of course, most shooters don't care to do.
 
Re: recoil question?

it's talked about all the time, it's what we mean by being straight back with the spine parallel to the bore, pressing the trigger perpendicular to the bore and the flight of the bullet as well as loading up the bipod to manage the recoil.

Spoken about in great detail in the Online Training, it was lesson 1, to the point in our last video Jacob fired a Barrett M107 on a wooden decking and managed the recoil so the rifle moved in a straight fashion, back into the shoulder. Even with a .50 Caliber, no hop or angular deviation.

That is how we see our impacts downrange, we don't lose time because we aren't introducing angles between the body and rifle to include the trigger because you can manipulate it at an angle which cause a variation to the left or right.

Watch the videos on youtube there are several on recoil management and the groups in this video are one hole, the rifle doesn't move but a small amount straight into the shoulder and returns exactly on target. You don't see the shooter reseting their positions because he has managed these factors. It's done prone, and in alternate position where the shooter can see the results of their shots as they happen.

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With a mouse gun, it's beyond simple which is why we demonstrate it with larger calibers, 300WM, 338LM, and .50 because if you can do it with those, you can do it with a 5.56 or 7.62.

I like to think it's why we're not one trick ponies. all the systems are engaged and executed the same manner for the same results downrange. Whether an AICS, Barrett, or pistol, it's about eliminating the angles between the shooter and system and supporting in a way that allows it to recoil as intended -- in a straight line.
 
Re: recoil question?

So, how is zero displacement workin' out for ya? For me, even when I get control down to what I feel is perfected consistency from shot to shot, zero displacement has still eluded me, I'm talking about the groups produced on SR-1's, SR-21's, and MR-31's. I'm not aware of anyone who has realized zero displacement for an entire string of fire on these or other courses of fire, the exception being BR, of course. Nevertheless, it's an interesting ideal.
 
Re: recoil question?

The last time I went anywhere near an NRA type target the FClass winer over 6 days of the SOA was decided by X count, not a single point dropped over that many days by the best F Class open shooters... since then I understand they have reduced the target size so I can't say what they do now. I wasn't much interested in the equipment race as it too much like Benchrest for me.

I have no interest in the target designations you listed, maybe when I turn 100, and decide I don't want to move without wheeled assist to the firing line I'll fade away in to the sunset shooting each of them.

Until that time, I judge my displacement by the ability to see the results of my shots going downrange in real time. From a variety of positions, I don't need a spotter, I am my own spotter, and my idea of recoil control is seeing the holes appear in the paper when I shoot said paper, or seeing the impacts as they happen on whatever else I decide to shoot.

After getting straight and reducing the angles, every else is just wind.
wink.gif
 
Re: recoil question?

i was always doing prone with the "little plastic green army guy" stance. i've always had good results, and thought the whole behind the rifle stuff was just "fashionable", besides, who needs a second shot anyway?
wink.gif


as i started shooting more competiton and paper targets more often, i started practicing the straight behind the rifle.

the straight behind the rifle not only helped with hop, recoil management, seeing the hits better, but the comfort and the lack of fatigue to my neck and shoulder increased, and the groups shrank, particularly after several rounds and passage of a few minutes. it was also alot easier to support the rear and get on target quicker with the next followup round. pulling a shot to the left or right was also reduced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rkt1HRWdo&feature=related

of course a braked "lighter" calibered, heavy weighted rifle makes recoil management easier, but so does shooting form. both combined is a majical thing.
 
Re: recoil question?

How realistic is it to think that one can have such perfect parallels when laying across a rutted slope at 4% - 9%? AND - if such perfection exists, would you or would you not be imparting something other than true?

I say this in the sense that we make effort to eliminate cant regardless of the surface we are on or the surface the target is on.

I have wondered about this several times as this is type of shooting I am most often doing.


TIA


Good luck
 
Re: recoil question?

LL "my idea of recoil control is seeing the holes appear in the paper when I shoot said paper"

I presume you are able to see your impact at 100-yrds on 20x+ power. For those of us who can't and are working towards this standard would we be better off remaining on 20x or should we dial down and try to work up towards a higher magnification over time or is that likely to kid us that we can do it and we are actually utilising the scope to see our impact rather than our technique ie in at the deep end or paddle first ? Thx
 
Re: recoil question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was always doing prone with the "little plastic green army guy" stance. i've always had good results, and thought the whole behind the rifle stuff was just "fashionable", besides, who needs a second shot anyway?
wink.gif


as i started shooting more competiton and paper targets more often, i started practicing the straight behind the rifle.

the straight behind the rifle not only helped with hop, recoil management, seeing the hits better, but the comfort and the lack of fatigue to my neck and shoulder increased, and the groups shrank, particularly after several rounds and passage of a few minutes. it was also alot easier to support the rear and get on target quicker with the next followup round. pulling a shot to the left or right was also reduced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rkt1HRWdo&feature=related

of course a braked "lighter" calibered, heavy weighted rifle makes recoil management easier, but so does shooting form. both combined is a majical thing. </div></div>

So, how do you get behind the gun when not using a bipod or sandbag support, that's to say, when you're shooting with a loop sling, or with bone alone how to you get straight behind the gun and still support the rifle? You must have really long arms.
 
Re: recoil question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL "my idea of recoil control is seeing the holes appear in the paper when I shoot said paper"

I presume you are able to see your impact at 100-yrds on 20x+ power. For those of us who can't and are working towards this standard would we be better off remaining on 20x or should we dial down and try to work up towards a higher magnification over time or is that likely to kid us that we can do it and we are actually utilising the scope to see our impact rather than our technique ie in at the deep end or paddle first ? Thx</div></div>

I don't shoot 20X, I don't ever really go over 16X, mostly 15X... you can still see the holes appear. (I shoot a lot of SHOOT n C targets, seeing the green is easy)

Sterling why do you need to shoot a loop sling in the prone ? That is a sport and not a practical application of tactical shooting. A bipod is much more consistent and stable than a sling, as well it is faster ? Welcome to 2010, people have invested lots of time and effort to make bipods better. Lighter, stronger, most versatile. Most military units don't even use slings capable of anything more than a hasty sling. And the ones with slings capable don't have the time to practice enough to perfect their sling shooting, nor do they care too. They support the rifle when possible more often than not, including the use of partner supported options.

However, I still shoot slung straight behind, ask Leo, I shot a .22 slung morning with him, he can attest to my accuracy as well as my straight behind the rifle position . I used his equipment and still stayed straight, why, because for me straight is right. My elbows fall underneath the rifle without thinking. Repetition breeds comfort, and straight is comfortable for me, being off to the side, as well as making you a larger target downrange is no uncomfortable.

Moz... we shoot in the field all the time, including in Oregon. Managing recoil in the field is no problem. It's about assessing the position, and adapting to it. You have to first understand how the recoil work then use a position to manage it based on the terrain.
 
Re: recoil question?

A quick note on the zero dispersion issue, because someone asked me about it this morning.

Technically with the rifles we use, it's near impossible to have a literal zero dispersion. So the idea that you can achieve zero dispersion is some what misleading to be polite.

Part of that zero equation has to include the system you're using, so you'd have to start with a rifle that is, not a 1/4 MOA gun, but a .00 MOA rifle, to include the ammo... this doesn't exist so you can't possibly know what was absolutely the shooter and what is the system. Especially when we shoot factory ammo.

When I answered the question, as I started what recoil management is to me, that with the understanding that zero dispersion on a .5 MOA system is .5MOA out to distance. So the practical zero[/i] is a sliding scale not a literal representation to mean .00 MOA. There are inherent inaccuracies beyond the shooter's control, especially at distance.

It's why I think Sterling answered,<span style="font-style: italic"> "how's that working out for you"... </span> To me, if I shot a match that was settled by X count and never dropped a point you pretty much have reached zero, however you can mislead or fool people into thinking zero dispersion was absolute zero - when clearly the systems are not capable of absolute zero.

Anyway I wanted to clarify because someone asked me about it.
 
Re: recoil question?

Of course you know when I asked how that was working out for you I was just having a little fun with the topic. I hope you received it in good humor.
 
Re: recoil question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was always doing prone with the "little plastic green army guy" stance. i've always had good results, and thought the whole behind the rifle stuff was just "fashionable", besides, who needs a second shot anyway?
wink.gif


as i started shooting more competiton and paper targets more often, i started practicing the straight behind the rifle.

the straight behind the rifle not only helped with hop, recoil management, seeing the hits better, but the comfort and the lack of fatigue to my neck and shoulder increased, and the groups shrank, particularly after several rounds and passage of a few minutes. it was also alot easier to support the rear and get on target quicker with the next followup round. pulling a shot to the left or right was also reduced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rkt1HRWdo&feature=related

of course a braked "lighter" calibered, heavy weighted rifle makes recoil management easier, but so does shooting form. both combined is a majical thing. </div></div>

So, how do you get behind the gun when not using a bipod or sandbag support, that's to say, when you're shooting with a loop sling, or with bone alone how to you get straight behind the gun and still support the rifle? You must have really long arms.</div></div>

i actually have really short stubby ones. though it's rare (almost never) that i find myself without a bipod, i also practice moving my support hand in a "V" shape up against the front of the trigger guard, essentially driving or wedging the butt into the shoulder pocket, which really seems to be working.

there are still some bugs to work out, as i just started this straight behing the rifle stance not so long ago. locking in the sling on the back of the upper and front of the fore arm seems to lesson the front heaviness of the barrel with my hand in that position.

obviouly it is better used with a bipod or front rest of some sort.

straight behin does seem to knock the felt recoil down, i guess it's harder to push your whole body rear ward than just the upper quarter of a torso in the green army guy position.
 
Re: recoil question?

Zero dispersion seems very easy to accomplish using the Dot-drill target...every dot should have one clean hole in it
grin.gif
 
Re: recoil question?

All,

For those who may not understand it, zero displacement means that there is no measurable displacement between point of aim and point of bullet impact. Since this is difficult to obtain for a multitude of reasons, shooters zero by shooting a group from which trangulation identifies the adjustment need.
 
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