Sidearms & Scatterguns Red Dot Dilemma

[NFAJohn]

I guess there comes a time when we must all acknowledge the unstoppable marching of time towards being blind as fuck, I accept it.

There are a zillion damn red dots out there, a zillion mounting methods, it all looks to me like more shit to fail right when you might really really need it one day. I need a little help figuring out what to do here. My irons just arn't as sharp as they use to be and I'm sure in the next few years they will just be useless blobs out there. I wear contacts to correct my vision for distance and will be having lasik this winter.

1- I carry IWB 95% of the time, I'm also not a small man and can literally sweat through a shirt. Will an optic stand up to this daily?

2- I do run nods alot, would be cool if said red dot would work with them.

3- I have mostly glocks that I want to put optics on, my understanding is that direct milling a slide for an optic is superior to the glock MOS and plates..is this true? If so who to use for milling?

4- Irons? I'd like as uncluttered of a sight picture as possible, is a single front post and using the optic as basically a giant ghost ring if the optic dies a thing or not?

Thanks for the input amigos.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I'd stick with the more popular/reputable brands. Trijicon and Aimpoint mainly. But you can look into Leupold, Sig, and Holosun as they also have good reputation.

I personally run separate setups for CC and non CC/NVG use. The same as I have a different carbine rig for home defense vs work/cqb. I have a Glock 19 with Trijicon RMR CC for my CC. And then I have Glock 47 that I'm trying both the Aimpoint Acro and Trijicon RCR when I'm using a duty rig and holster.

I think people mostly prefer slide milling to plates more for looks than anything. If using a good thread locker, Glock MOS is fine.

Irons, I run suppressor height blacked out sights. I don't need night sights distracting me and also have weapon light in the even there's a failure with the RDS and need to use blacked out backup sights.

And yes, in an emergency situation, as long as you're not too far away you can just put center mass in the window of your RDS and make effective impacts. Inside 7-10yds you really aren't focused on your sights anyway when you don't have an RDS, so it's not much different with an RDS. Point and shoot inside those distances.

 

[FatBoy]

I just started going down this road about 6 weeks ago. Ran my first two matches with an RMR on a G47 but have recently moved an ACRO into it. I also run suppressor height blacked out sights which work fine through both he RMR and the ACRO. To MY EYE the ACRO is easier for me to be target focused without the distortion/discoloration of the RMR . Oddly enough, I don’t notice this at all when the RMR is piggybacked on my ACOG or the rear ring of my LPVO.


I went with the C+H plate for both the RMR and ACRO. Mainly because it come with all the damn screws you need (MOS does not) and I like the way the plate fits the slide better. I also like the way it takes up all the space, leaving no gaps front or rear.

Some observations from a Red dot noob..

 

[NFAJohn]

@Rio Precision Gunworks and @FatBoy thank y’all for the input. If MOS is the easy button I’ll be going that way, I’ve got a literal fleet of about a dozen Glocks I was trying to figure out if I should mill them or leave them the hell alone and grab a MOS to start experimenting with.

With y’all both having messed with the ACRO would you think it would worth chunking on a G19 for IWB or is it pushing the size envelope for IWB?

My concern with the RMRCC is the smaller window exasperating the learning curve, I would assume it’s harder to pick up than a larger window.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Unless you're really strapped for cash, it definitely won't hurt to start with the Acro and see how you like it. It's definitely going to be larger footprint and beefier. But definitely not impossible to conceal. Start with a larger window and then move down smaller (if you want) as you get better with it.

As far as picking up the dot, that's one of the good things about running back up irons. Almost no one ever says they have trouble finding their irons.....just complain about finding the dot. Well, if you run suppressor irons and you have trained to find your irons....guess what's right there? Yep, the dot.

 

[Milf Dots]

Don't be afraid to have a Glock direct milled for an Acro p2 or Trijicon RMR or RCR- it'll put the optic lower on the slide and be a stronger install. The Glock MOS system doesn't have a lot of metal for the screws to grab. Also, the Leupold DPP optic isn't bad, and neither is the Sig Romeo x-Pro.

I stay away from Holosun because they're a China headquartered oem manufacturer.

Jagerwerks does fantastic work and they offer Acro optic cuts on glock slides:

https://jagerwerks.com/aimpoint-acro-for-glock/

 

[NFAJohn]

Don't be afraid to have a Glock direct milled for an Acro p2 or Trijicon RMR or RCR- it'll put the optic lower on the slide and be a stronger install. The Glock MOS system doesn't have a lot of metal for the screws to grab. Also, the Leupold DPP optic isn't bad, and neither is the Sig Romeo x-Pro.

I stay away from Holosun because they're a China headquartered oem manufacturer.

Jagerwerks does fantastic work and they offer Acro optic cuts on glock slides:

https://jagerwerks.com/aimpoint-acro-for-glock/

Was just looking at them and maple leaf, little more research looks like the acro milled into a slid puts it lower too.

My biggest goals here are to have something robust I won’t break or destroy sweating on it in the Texas heat. Sweat, humidity ect is what has me leaning towards closed emitters.

 

[j-moose32]

1. stick with trijicon , aimpoint , leupold and even some holosuns and youll be fine.

2. All make ones comparable with NVG’s

3. I’ve had a few milled and most recently by mod1 firearms. Good work and fast turnaround. Tons of other good places with fast turn around as well

4. Ditch the rear sight and get as low as a blacked out front sight as you can

 

[Milf Dots]

Was just looking at them and maple leaf, little more research looks like the acro milled into a slid puts it lower too.

My biggest goals here are to have something robust I won’t break or destroy sweating on it in the Texas heat. Sweat, humidity ect is what has me leaning towards closed emitters.

For closed emitters- the Acro p2 then the Trijicon RCR are the top choices.

 

[FuhQ]

I guess there comes a time when we must all acknowledge the unstoppable marching of time towards being blind as fuck, I accept it.

There are a zillion damn red dots out there, a zillion mounting methods, it all looks to me like more shit to fail right when you might really really need it one day. I need a little help figuring out what to do here. My irons just arn't as sharp as they use to be and I'm sure in the next few years they will just be useless blobs out there. I wear contacts to correct my vision for distance and will be having lasik this winter.

1- I carry IWB 95% of the time, I'm also not a small man and can literally sweat through a shirt. Will an optic stand up to this daily?

2- I do run nods alot, would be cool if said red dot would work with them.

3- I have mostly glocks that I want to put optics on, my understanding is that direct milling a slide for an optic is superior to the glock MOS and plates..is this true? If so who to use for milling?

4- Irons? I'd like as uncluttered of a sight picture as possible, is a single front post and using the optic as basically a giant ghost ring if the optic dies a thing or not?

Thanks for the input amigos.

I like the Holosun 407 and 507 for handguns.

 

[clcustom1911]

I guess there comes a time when we must all acknowledge the unstoppable marching of time towards being blind as fuck, I accept it.

There are a zillion damn red dots out there, a zillion mounting methods, it all looks to me like more shit to fail right when you might really really need it one day. I need a little help figuring out what to do here. My irons just arn't as sharp as they use to be and I'm sure in the next few years they will just be useless blobs out there. I wear contacts to correct my vision for distance and will be having lasik this winter.

1- I carry IWB 95% of the time, I'm also not a small man and can literally sweat through a shirt. Will an optic stand up to this daily?

2- I do run nods alot, would be cool if said red dot would work with them.

3- I have mostly glocks that I want to put optics on, my understanding is that direct milling a slide for an optic is superior to the glock MOS and plates..is this true? If so who to use for milling?

4- Irons? I'd like as uncluttered of a sight picture as possible, is a single front post and using the optic as basically a giant ghost ring if the optic dies a thing or not?

Thanks for the input amigos.

Rmr, SRO, RMRcc

I'm trim/FIT, with astigmatism, and use nods regularly, and I live in the hottest part of AZ, sweat more than anyone i know, and carry IWB. I carry either a G45, or CZ P10c with RMRcc's.

 

[roostercogburn98]

@Rio Precision Gunworks and @FatBoy thank y’all for the input. If MOS is the easy button I’ll be going that way, I’ve got a literal fleet of about a dozen Glocks I was trying to figure out if I should mill them or leave them the hell alone and grab a MOS to start experimenting with.

With y’all both having messed with the ACRO would you think it would worth chunking on a G19 for IWB or is it pushing the size envelope for IWB?

My concern with the RMRCC is the smaller window exasperating the learning curve, I would assume it’s harder to pick up than a larger window.

G43x and a sig red dot is plenty of gun and easy to see. This is my oldest daughters gun, she ended up liking the iron sights better though. I though the micro red dot worked well, and may find a gun to put it on.

 

[maceface]

I'll apologize ahead of time for the novel...

I daily carry a Gen 5 G19 MOS with an RMR 06. Other than occasionally cleaning the lenses with a wipe due to lint/dirt, I've never had issues caused by my sweating down here in FL. My primary training/hiking/kayaking gun is a G34 with an ACRO P-2 due to the enclosed emitter, and the risk of my wife capsizing my kayak if she sees a snake. The 19 currently has 13,200rds and my 34 just passed 37,000rds all with the same properly mounted optics and regular recoil spring changes.

RMR: My RMR's stay on 24/7 and get battery changes every year on my birth month, but I've never had issues with dead batteries. I got some cheap rubber covers from amazon for the RMR on my carry gun to save on battery life. Cover goes on when the gun comes out of my waistband and onto the night stand, so the auto-brightness is not at a higher setting and draining battery. Having to remove the entire optic to change the battery is the only downside, but it's almost a non-issue. The most I've ever had to adjust after a battery swap was one or two clicks (little more on that below).

ACRO: Unfortunately, I don't have a good idea of battery life on the ACRO. Being on training guns, they get turned off when it goes into the safe. I tried to carry it, but due to the size difference toward the rear of the optic compared to an RMR, it was a no-go for me. I also have rubber covers for my ACROs, but only because the front lense isnt counter-sunk like the RMR (it's flush with the front of the optic housing), and I dont want to crack it moving shit around in the safe.

If you stick to the big names in the red dot world, you should not have any worries about durability, outside of a few odd issues. I currently have 7 RMRs and 2 ACROs on 9 different pistols. Outside of an emitter issue with an older type-1 RMR 06, all have been just fine in high round count classes.

The MOS style attachment method is less than desirable if using the supplied plates that come with your gun. I would highly recommend an aftermarket plate from Forward Control Designs like their OPF-G, or another manufacturer that supports your optic from the front and rear, and not just from the mounting screws and the tiny recoil bosses. I attribute only having to make small zeroing adjustments to these plates "cradling" the optic.

If you decide to go the direct mill route, I have had great experience with Primary Machine. The three week turn around, which included slide cerakote, was great. And it was such a good fit that I probably could've shot the gun without the mounting screws in the optic (joking).

There is a really good thread on pistol-forum by a guy that runs pistol mounted optics courses for LE agencies on the west coast. He is pretty good at getting the types of dots, and mounting platform included in his data.

 

[NFAJohn]

I'll apologize ahead of time for the novel...

I daily carry a Gen 5 G19 MOS with an RMR 06. Other than occasionally cleaning the lenses with a wipe due to lint/dirt, I've never had issues caused by my sweating down here in FL. My primary training/hiking/kayaking gun is a G34 with an ACRO P-2 due to the enclosed emitter, and the risk of my wife capsizing my kayak if she sees a snake. The 19 currently has 13,200rds and my 34 just passed 37,000rds all with the same properly mounted optics and regular recoil spring changes.

RMR: My RMR's stay on 24/7 and get battery changes every year on my birth month, but I've never had issues with dead batteries. I got some cheap rubber covers from amazon for the RMR on my carry gun to save on battery life. Cover goes on when the gun comes out of my waistband and onto the night stand, so the auto-brightness is not at a higher setting and draining battery. Having to remove the entire optic to change the battery is the only downside, but it's almost a non-issue. The most I've ever had to adjust after a battery swap was one or two clicks (little more on that below).

ACRO: Unfortunately, I don't have a good idea of battery life on the ACRO. Being on training guns, they get turned off when it goes into the safe. I tried to carry it, but due to the size difference toward the rear of the optic compared to an RMR, it was a no-go for me. I also have rubber covers for my ACROs, but only because the front lense isnt counter-sunk like the RMR (it's flush with the front of the optic housing), and I dont want to crack it moving shit around in the safe.

If you stick to the big names in the red dot world, you should not have any worries about durability, outside of a few odd issues. I currently have 7 RMRs and 2 ACROs on 9 different pistols. Outside of an emitter issue with an older type-1 RMR 06, all have been just fine in high round count classes.

The MOS style attachment method is less than desirable if using the supplied plates that come with your gun. I would highly recommend an aftermarket plate from Forward Control Designs like their OPF-G, or another manufacturer that supports your optic from the front and rear, and not just from the mounting screws and the tiny recoil bosses. I attribute only having to make small zeroing adjustments to these plates "cradling" the optic.

If you decide to go the direct mill route, I have had great experience with Primary Machine. The three week turn around, which included slide cerakote, was great. And it was such a good fit that I probably could've shot the gun without the mounting screws in the optic (joking).

There is a really good thread on pistol-forum by a guy that runs pistol mounted optics courses for LE agencies on the west coast. He is pretty good at getting the types of dots, and mounting platform included in his data.

Thanks man, exactly the kind of input I was looking for. I called Mod 1 today, 3 day turn around, ton of good reviews ect ect.

As far as optic I think I'm gonna lean back to rmr on a 19 for my first foray into red dots. I think I'm massively overthinking the importance of closed v open emitter. Shipping out today to get milled and will follow back up with how it goes.

 

[Milf Dots]

Thanks man, exactly the kind of input I was looking for. I called Mod 1 today, 3 day turn around, ton of good reviews ect ect.

As far as optic I think I'm gonna lean back to rmr on a 19 for my first foray into red dots. I think I'm massively overthinking the importance of closed v open emitter. Shipping out today to get milled and will follow back up with how it goes.

If getting an RMR, the most up to date version of the underneath battery design is the "RMR type 2". But I'd go for an "RMR HD" so you can change batteries without having to remove the optic, like with the older underneath load design. YMMV

But then, if you get an RMR HD, you're within a few dollars of the closed emitter version called the RCR.

 

[NFAJohn]

If getting an RMR, the most up to date version of the underneath battery design is the "RMR type 2". But I'd go for an "RMR HD" so you can change batteries without having to remove the optic, like with the older underneath load design. YMMV

But then, if you get an RMR HD, you're within a few dollars of the closed emitter version called the RCR.

Midway has the RMRHD and that's what I was planning on grabbing.

 

[the_assman]

Thanks man, exactly the kind of input I was looking for. I called Mod 1 today, 3 day turn around, ton of good reviews ect ect.

As far as optic I think I'm gonna lean back to rmr on a 19 for my first foray into red dots. I think I'm massively overthinking the importance of closed v open emitter. Shipping out today to get milled and will follow back up with how it goes.

if your having the slide direct milled an acro p2 with irons forward is tits

or a mos glock with a fcd mounting plate and an acro p2 with ameriglo gl-429 sights , this is the setup im running and would be my second choice

the rmrhd seems like a nice optic though , especially if you like the multi reticle option. i'd like to pick up one of the hd rmr's and an rcr to try out

if your having a slide direct milled irons forward is always nice , it helps protect the window and you won't lose your dot under the irons. i don't know if you could go sight forward on the rmrhd though with that overhang on the front of it

edit to add : i don't have any time behind the rmrhd but if your planning on shooting under nods aimpoints have always been better to me than rmr's. on my 2 handguns that i shoot with nv one has an aimpoint t2 and one has an acro p2 , all the others had rmr's. the rmr's worked fine but the aimpoints always seem better under nods

 

[maceface]

Thanks man, exactly the kind of input I was looking for. I called Mod 1 today, 3 day turn around, ton of good reviews ect ect.

As far as optic I think I'm gonna lean back to rmr on a 19 for my first foray into red dots. I think I'm massively overthinking the importance of closed v open emitter. Shipping out today to get milled and will follow back up with how it goes.

Again, another novel. My bad.

I shoot in the rain all the time with open emitters, mainly because nobody else goes to the range during FL downpours. If I’m shooting from concealment the dot stays pretty dry under a light rain jacket. If im shooting from my duty rig, the safariland 6395 “Cheeto guard” hood keeps the dot pretty dry as well. While you’re shooting the RDS is shedding off a lot of the water under recoil.

If you do get water on the lense/emitter just use it as an opportunity to practice different methods of pistol RDS shooting:

1-Dot on, just like everything is normal.

2-Dot powered off, using irons through the housing, simulating a dead battery/electronics failure.

3-Masking tape on the front of your RDS, dot on, simulating a shattered lense or mud caked on the front of the RDS, but the reflective portion is still displaying a useable dot. Shoot with both eyes open and it won’t even slow you down.

4-Masking tape on the rear of the RDS, simulating a totally unusable dot, destroyed lense, or mud caked in the rear. If you get an RMR, placing the “horns” on the top of the housing on the shoulders of a target can get you good center mass hits within most pistol distances.

 

[j-moose32]

The worry of closed vs open emitter is greatly over exaggerated. There are videos on this site alone from members putting and open emitter under a kitchen sink with 0 issues. I’ll see if I can find it and post it.

Check out the SRO as well - better all around than the RMR imo.

If your dead set on iron sights, get them as low as possible. They aren’t needed though and that’s another thing greatly blown out of proportion. There’s a reason that top shooters don’t use em on their pistols.. they aren’t necessary

 

[NFAJohn]

The worry of closed vs open emitter is greatly over exaggerated. There are videos on this site alone from members putting and open emitter under a kitchen sink with 0 issues. I’ll see if I can find it and post it.

A little more research and speaking with buddies of mine still in the carrying shit in duty holsters every day line of work lead me to the same conclusion.

Not really set on irons, I asked Mod one to place the optic as far rearward as possible so deleting the rear dovetail.
Install a correct front sight in plain black.

A zillion years ago when I worked at the PD we were trained up on the front sight press and squeeze. I'm hoping the 15 years of pressing out and finding the front iron will transition to "hey look the front iron grew a dot blam blam blam"

As far as optic I ordered the RMRHD, top load battery, not the size of a toaster, plenty of holsters around, figure if it turns out to not agree with me I can always chunk it on a 10/22 or something.

 

[j-moose32]

@NFAJohn so don’t even think of it as front sight anymore, or iron sight anything At all. You don’t think that way when you use a red don’t on a rifle do you? Same concept.

You look at the spot on the target and bring the gun up , the red dot appears to that point and fire the round.

With dry fire you will make the switch to the dot easy, and never look back. Just remember TARGET focus, not dot or iron sight focus.

 

[NFAJohn]

@NFAJohn so don’t even think of it as front sight anymore, or iron sight anything At all. You don’t think that way when you use a red don’t on a rifle do you? Same concept.

You look at the spot on the target and bring the gun up , the red dot appears to that point and fire the round.

With dry fire you will make the switch to the dot easy, and never look back. Just remember TARGET focus, not dot or iron sight focus.

Roger roger, to be totally honest 0-7ish I don't even see the damn things, but past that when I try to bring irons into focus they just don't anymore.. hence the trying the red dot thing.

Hopefully after a few hundred rounds my money brain will transition to see target, apply dot, blam blam blam

 

[WindstormSCR]

1- I carry IWB 95% of the time, I'm also not a small man and can literally sweat through a shirt. Will an optic stand up to this daily?

2- I do run nods alot, would be cool if said red dot would work with them.

#2 basically pegs your choice to a Leupold Delta Point Pro NV.

as far as durability, they give them to marines, and you know how the saying goes.......

 

[308pirate]

I guess there comes a time when we must all acknowledge the unstoppable marching of time towards being blind as fuck, I accept it.

There are a zillion damn red dots out there, a zillion mounting methods, it all looks to me like more shit to fail right when you might really really need it one day. I need a little help figuring out what to do here. My irons just arn't as sharp as they use to be and I'm sure in the next few years they will just be useless blobs out there. I wear contacts to correct my vision for distance and will be having lasik this winter.

1- I carry IWB 95% of the time, I'm also not a small man and can literally sweat through a shirt. Will an optic stand up to this daily?
Yes
2- I do run nods alot, would be cool if said red dot would work with them.
All Trijicon red dots have NV-compatible brigthness settings
3- I have mostly glocks that I want to put optics on, my understanding is that direct milling a slide for an optic is superior to the glock MOS and plates..is this true? If so who to use for milling?
Direct milling is not superior to a plate system
4- Irons? I'd like as uncluttered of a sight picture as possible, is a single front post and using the optic as basically a giant ghost ring if the optic dies a thing or not?
Buy a reliable optic and backup irons are unnecessary.
Thanks for the input amigos.

My answers in red based on daily carry of optic-equipped pistols for the last four years.

You are going to have to put in the work for an optic on a pistol to be fast. It's not a magic wand.

 

[308pirate]

#2 basically pegs your choice to a Leupold Delta Point Pro NV.

LOL no.....every Trijicon and Holosun reflex optic is NV compatible.

Leuopold is non existent in USPSA competition, where people use their RDS equipped pistols more than anyone.

 

[NFAJohn]

It's not a magic wand.

Totally agree, I'll clock 5-600 rounds before I even consider carrying it in the wild

 

[308pirate]

The worry of closed vs open emitter is greatly over exaggerated. There are videos on this site alone from members putting and open emitter under a kitchen sink with 0 issues. I’ll see if I can find it and post it.

Check out the SRO as well - better all around than the RMR imo.

If your dead set on iron sights, get them as low as possible. They aren’t needed though and that’s another thing greatly blown out of proportion. There’s a reason that top shooters don’t use em on their pistols.. they aren’t necessary

 

[308pirate]

Totally agree, I'll clock 5-600 rounds before I even consider carrying it in the wild

99% of what you need to do to get used to a RDS on a pistol doesn't involve firing a single round. Dry fire is your friend.

 

[WindstormSCR]

LOL no.....every Trijicon and Holosun reflex optic is NV compatible.

Leuopold is non existent in USPSA competition, where people use their RDS equipped pistols more than anyone.

I've had the opportunity to use several under NV, and there is a vast gulf of difference between "NV Compatible" and "works well under NV"

The DPP is the easiest to use under nods for multiple reasons, from minimal hazing effects in the glass, to the crispness of the dot under IIT.

USPSA is done entirely under daylight, so the competitors rightly optimize for daylight conditions and maximum durability, without regard to NV use. While I would like for the best NV dot to also be the best daylight dot, it just isn't the case.

Ultimately it's a "how much do you value usability under NV" question. if the answer is "a lot" then the DPP NV is the choice. if the answer is "might be nice occasionally" then the USPSA based recommendations make more sense.

 

[308pirate]

I've had the opportunity to use several under NV, and there is a vast gulf of difference between "NV Compatible" and "works well under NV"

The DPP is the easiest to use under nods for multiple reasons, from minimal hazing effects in the glass, to the crispness of the dot under IIT.

I haven't used Trijicons under NV, but USSOCOM has. I take it they work.

USPSA is done entirely under daylight, so the competitors rightly optimize for daylight conditions and maximum durability, without regard to NV use. While I would like for the best NV dot to also be the best daylight dot, it just isn't the case.

The reference to USPSA in regard to the DPP is about durability. They don't last, which is why the heaviest users by volume don't buy them any more.

 

[NFAJohn]

 

[bigmatt17073]

I choose the RMR. It is proven, long battery life, and bombproof. If I'm going to carry I want a durable optic. There are numerous reports of the Acro P2 not being durable, fogging up internally, and the rear world battery life isn't anything close to what they publish. The DPP and SRO have big windows, but both of those big windows have caused some durability issues.

I do own NV and currently own RMR, DPP NV, Steiner MPS, multiple Holosuns, and have used friends' Acro P2, SRO, etc as well. All work decently well for NV with the bigger windowed SR and DPP NV being slightly better. If I could find one of the new Trijicon RCR or RMR HD I might choose that instead of the RMR, but those are hard to come by currently.

 

[NFAJohn]

I choose the RMR. It is proven, long battery life, and bombproof. If I'm going to carry I want a durable optic. There are numerous reports of the Acro P2 not being durable, fogging up internally, and the rear world battery life isn't anything close to what they publish. The DPP and SRO have big windows, but both of those big windows have caused some durability issues.

I do own NV and currently own RMR, DPP NV, Steiner MPS, multiple Holosuns, and have used friends' Acro P2, SRO, etc as well. All work decently well for NV with the bigger windowed SR and DPP NV being slightly better. If I could find one of the new Trijicon RCR or RMR HD I might choose that instead of the RMR, but those are hard to come by currently.

Midway USA has em

 

[the_assman]

I've had the opportunity to use several under NV, and there is a vast gulf of difference between "NV Compatible" and "works well under NV"

The DPP is the easiest to use under nods for multiple reasons, from minimal hazing effects in the glass, to the crispness of the dot under IIT.

USPSA is done entirely under daylight, so the competitors rightly optimize for daylight conditions and maximum durability, without regard to NV use. While I would like for the best NV dot to also be the best daylight dot, it just isn't the case.

Ultimately it's a "how much do you value usability under NV" question. if the answer is "a lot" then the DPP NV is the choice. if the answer is "might be nice occasionally" then the USPSA based recommendations make more sense.

working with nods was just one criteria , the DPP had it's moment but it's issue's from it's high deck height to holster incompatibility don't really make it a good fit here , or as a handgun mounted red dot sight in general

i wouldn't call it the easiest to use under nods with it's single button setup but the dot does look good. to me not as good as an aimpoint acro p2's dot but everyone's eye's are different

and i'm still trying to figure out what "minimal hazing effects in the glass" means or how it effects seeing a dot , especially under nods

 

[the_assman]

I choose the RMR. It is proven, long battery life, and bombproof. If I'm going to carry I want a durable optic. There are numerous reports of the Acro P2 not being durable, fogging up internally, and the rear world battery life isn't anything close to what they publish. The DPP and SRO have big windows, but both of those big windows have caused some durability issues.

I do own NV and currently own RMR, DPP NV, Steiner MPS, multiple Holosuns, and have used friends' Acro P2, SRO, etc as well. All work decently well for NV with the bigger windowed SR and DPP NV being slightly better. If I could find one of the new Trijicon RCR or RMR HD I might choose that instead of the RMR, but those are hard to come by currently.

could you please point me to those reports of the acro not being durable

are you talking about the battery life on the p1 or the p2 ?

i've run rmr's for years and compared to the other mini red dots they have pretty poor battery life , especially compared to my aimpoints. do the battery's in your rmr's last their published lifespan because mine never seem to. i've got into the habit of just replacing the battery once a year on my rmr's because i have picked up my guns to use twice where the battery in the rmr was dead

and although the rmr is the acog of mini red dot sights i wouldn't call it bombproof , there's a thread here on this forum where a user had his rmr spit the window out of it. luckily he was just at the range shooting and i believe if the window was shoved back into the frame to give the emitter something to reflect off of it would have still been useable

like you i've owned or used most of the mini red dots except for the holosuns and they are all workable. in a non training situation i would be glad to have any of them on top of my gun instead of irons. the bigger window is always nicer for tracking your dot downrange but there's a point to where it's to big for the gun and practical use otherwise i'd have eotech's mounted on my handguns

the supply seems to be catching up on the trijicon's , i'm looking forward to trying them out also

 

[bigmatt17073]

could you please point me to those reports of the acro not being durable

are you talking about the battery life on the p1 or the p2 ?

i've run rmr's for years and compared to the other mini red dots they have pretty poor battery life , especially compared to my aimpoints. do the battery's in your rmr's last their published lifespan because mine never seem to. i've got into the habit of just replacing the battery once a year on my rmr's because i have picked up my guns to use twice where the battery in the rmr was dead

and although the rmr is the acog of mini red dot sights i wouldn't call it bombproof , there's a thread here on this forum where a user had his rmr spit the window out of it. luckily he was just at the range shooting and i believe if the window was shoved back into the frame to give the emitter something to reflect off of it would have still been useable

like you i've owned or used most of the mini red dots except for the holosuns and they are all workable. in a non training situation i would be glad to have any of them on top of my gun instead of irons. the bigger window is always nicer for tracking your dot downrange but there's a point to where it's to big for the gun and practical use otherwise i'd have eotech's mounted on my handguns

the supply seems to be catching up on the trijicon's , i'm looking forward to trying them out also

Some first hand reports can be found by google searches of "Acro P2 failure" and "Acro p2 battery life". The P2 was on my radar until some of the issues started popping up on various gun forums/groups and related YouTube videos. One of the first videos was this one from Barrel and Hatchet, Not So Duty Proven - Enclosed Emitter red dots In their case they have had some issues with most of the enclosed red dots. Also on YouTube M110 SASS Actual shows and talks about P2 failures in his battle royal enclosed emitter video. I've see reports of battery life only lasting a few months, cracked glass, buttons stop working, moisture inside unit. etc.

I have a number of friends with multiple P2's and none of them have had any issues except one has complained about battery life. My newest pistol I was thinking of trying a P2, but just decided to stick with the tried and true RMR (also the $100 RMR rebate helped with that decision). I did buy a used Steiner MPS from a buddy to try, and that's currently on a 12 oclock mount on one of my AR's.

I am very surprised your RMR's batteries don't last. The yearly replacement is still a good idea because CR2032's really aren't that expensive for some piece of mind in a carry/duty type gun. I have three RMR's (all RM06 models) on pistols. One is only a few months old, but the other two are around four years old still on their original batteries. I'll probably replace both batteries on my birthday this year. I did see the pic of the glass-less RMR failure, but the number of failures on RMR's pales in comparison to the millions? out there in the wild.

Hopefully, the hype on the new models dies down (and maybe the prices), and I get to buy one or two in the future.

 

[308pirate]

i've run rmr's for years and compared to the other mini red dots they have pretty poor battery life , especially compared to my aimpoints. do the battery's in your rmr's last their published lifespan because mine never seem to.

I only buy RM07s. I keep the one on my carry gun set on auto brightness. Because of that my RMRs have never had a dead battery. The longest I let one go was three years continously on before I gave in and changed the battery.

and although the rmr is the acog of mini red dot sights i wouldn't call it bombproof , there's a thread here on this forum where a user had his rmr spit the window out of it. luckily he was just at the range shooting and i believe if the window was shoved back into the frame to give the emitter something to reflect off of it would have still been useable

Everything man made fails at some point

 

[Yondering]

I've carried an optic mounted Glock (19, 17, or 21) AIWB every day since 2012. Hard to believe that's been 12 years ago already, but time marches on. Anyway, a few thoughts:

- Definitely mill the slide; skip the MOS stuff, it's not good enough. It's not about looks, it's about rigidity and having a solid setup you can drive nails with or smash the other guy's face in and rack the slide with the RMR against any nearby surface without concern of hurting it. A good milling job will have a snug fit, none of this loose BS that most pre-milled slides have where the optic drops in and wobbles around in the slot; a good custom job with a tight fit will have your optic returning to zero if you do have to remove it, and is a lot less likely to have screws loosen, back out, or break. Only thing I'd choose an MOS gun for is that new-ish Holosun optic that fits flush in the MOS slide without any plates; haven't tried that one though.

- The "enclosed emitter" thing is mostly a fad based in ignorance. Trijicon RMRs, Holosun 507c, etc all have enclosed emitters already, there's a little glass lens bonded in front of the emitter. Some cheap optics do leave the emitter exposed, but obviously avoid cheap stuff for this. The single advantage of these newer brick-shaped optics like the Acro now is that you can wipe mud or snow off the rear lens a little easier. "A little easier" being the key words - it's not that significant. Downside is that now you're looking through two pieces of glass instead of one, with a much higher likelihood of scratches or whatever on the rear lens. IMO, don't bother; it's not wrong if you want one, just unnecessary and the wrong priority to focus on.

- The new RMR HD is what the industry's been needing, finally, with its forward facing light sensor for better auto brightness correction. The standard RMR light sensor is also forward facing, but points up at an angle (it's mounted in there with the emitter, pointing forward through the front lens). Most other optics on the market either have no light sensor, or point directly above the optic (this is my only complaint of the Holosun 507c and other models; that big solar panel is the light sensor). Some like Swampfox even have it mounted on the side which is completely useless IMO.

- Some comments about auto brightness vs manual adjustment: I noticed a trend about 8 years ago with people claiming manual adjustment was better because their SWAT/SEAL/variousdoorkickergroup contacts preferred it. But the thing is, those applications are proactive, while ordinary citizen concealed carry is reactive (defense). IME, if the optic isn't ready to go for us at any time of the day or night without fiddling with it, then it's a step backwards from irons. Different story if you're a door kicker of some sort and can prep your gear ahead of time, but that's not me. So personally, I choose optics with good auto brightness control (currently that means the RMR series) and accept that in the extremely rare circumstance where the dot may get washed out from pointing into bright lights I may have to resort to the backup irons. The alternative is to use manual adjustment and accept that at some point of the day or night your optic will be either too bright or not visible, every day. I've heard people say they just adjust it for the situation, which means they're either fiddling with it all the time, and eventually forgetting it, or not really carrying everywhere. YMMV

- Irons are important. With a Glock it's as simple as a set of suppressor sights. Nothing special needed, no special heights, etc; they're really common. Just do it. And leave the rear sight where it is; there's no good reason to put it in front of the optic on a Glock, that's just more milling work for no benefit and it places the optic farther rear towards your wrist pivot point, which is less desirable.

- I've tried a bunch of different optics, but personally use Trijicon RMR or Holosun. I've got no use for anything Vortex, Swampfox, or Burris on a carry gun. The Holosun 507/407 c/k models have been pretty durable, but the 507c is the only one with automatic brightness. (It's better than manual adjustment, but not ideal.) Their 507k/407k models are manual adjustment only. Reds are fine, green has always been a little more blurry to my eyes in their product lines.
The Trijicon RMR is my go-to, and I've been switching back to it on all of my more serious pistols after trying Holosuns for a few years. I'm ambivalent about 3.25 moa vs 6.5 moa dots, both work fine. The 1 moa is a bit too fine IMO for a carry gun. Some of mine are the RM01/02 models with auto brightness only, others are the RM06/07 with the buttons; both work well. If I was using night vision, the RM06 or RM07 are the right choice. I do intend to pick up an RMR HD now that they're becoming available.

 

[the_assman]

Some first hand reports can be found by google searches of "Acro P2 failure" and "Acro p2 battery life". The P2 was on my radar until some of the issues started popping up on various gun forums/groups and related YouTube videos. One of the first videos was this one from Barrel and Hatchet, Not So Duty Proven - Enclosed Emitter red dots In their case they have had some issues with most of the enclosed red dots. Also on YouTube M110 SASS Actual shows and talks about P2 failures in his battle royal enclosed emitter video. I've see reports of battery life only lasting a few months, cracked glass, buttons stop working, moisture inside unit. etc.

I have a number of friends with multiple P2's and none of them have had any issues except one has complained about battery life. My newest pistol I was thinking of trying a P2, but just decided to stick with the tried and true RMR (also the $100 RMR rebate helped with that decision). I did buy a used Steiner MPS from a buddy to try, and that's currently on a 12 oclock mount on one of my AR's.

I am very surprised your RMR's batteries don't last. The yearly replacement is still a good idea because CR2032's really aren't that expensive for some piece of mind in a carry/duty type gun. I have three RMR's (all RM06 models) on pistols. One is only a few months old, but the other two are around four years old still on their original batteries. I'll probably replace both batteries on my birthday this year. I did see the pic of the glass-less RMR failure, but the number of failures on RMR's pales in comparison to the millions? out there in the wild.

Hopefully, the hype on the new models dies down (and maybe the prices), and I get to buy one or two in the future.

thanks , was hoping for an article about border patrol having to send a bunch back or something of that sort

i took advantage of that rebate also , it was hard to turn down an RMRcc for $285

battery life as represented by manufacturers is like horsepower ratings as represented by car makers. car makers use different test to get different numbers that don't really correspond to each other , just make our number bigger than theirs. battery life hours of optics is sort of the same game

with rmr's i think battery life depends alot on how often it's used and if the auto feature is locked out or not. i have an rmr on a range gun that sits in a dark safe for most of it's time and it's going on just over 2 years , but i don't know if it will make 3. it was down to about 25% at this years check

i've been wanting an rmr on steroids for a couple of years now and hopefully the hd is it

 

[the_assman]

I only buy RM07s. I keep the one on my carry gun set on auto brightness. Because of that my RMRs have never had a dead battery. The longest I let one go was three years continously on before I gave in and changed the battery.


Everything man made fails at some point

yes i lock out auto brightness on most of my rmr's. i understand this affects battery life but i'm not a fan of the speed of adjustment by the sensor. it's one of the things i hope the hd is better at

don't i know it. i have had parts break that you look at and wonder how the hell did that even happen , both from top tier and lower qc manufacturers

 

[Yondering]

A comment on battery life - with the Trijicon RMR optics, as well as the Holosun 507c models, I just change the batteries once a year whether they need it or not. I do it between my birthday and Christmas (about a 2 week window, easier than changing 10-12 optic batteries in one day) since that's easy to remember. I've never had a battery failure with those optics when following that method.

Other brands may need to be changed more often. Be especially conscious of the optics that rely on "motion activated" electronics for good battery life - kind of a stupid feature for a concealed carry gun since it'll remain on the entire time you're wearing it. The one and only time I tried carrying one of those the battery died in less than 3 months, when the claim was something like 5 years (with a tiny * next to that in the literature of course). Motion activated electronics are fine for guns that spend most of their time in a safe; not so much for carry. Buyer beware.

Also, part of my daily morning ritual is strapping on the pistol, which includes a check of the optic for alignment (one of the benefits of co-witnessed back up irons) and brightness. If it were getting dim I'd see that and change the battery.

 

[Yondering]

yes i lock out auto brightness on most of my rmr's. i understand this affects battery life but i'm not a fan of the speed of adjustment by the sensor. it's one of the things i hope the hd is better at

don't i know it. i have had parts break that you look at and wonder how the hell did that even happen , both from top tier and lower qc manufacturers

Might want to try another RMR or send yours back to Trijicon for repair. They're supposed to adjust pretty quickly; all of mine do, and I've had a bunch of them.

You do have to understand that the light sensor is pointed at an area above your target though (rather than directly above you like the Holosuns and some others). I've seen people complain that it's not adjusting but not realizing that it's because of the bright light above their target or something like that. The HD should definitely be an improvement with the light sensor pointed directly forward; I'm excited to try one.

IMO dealing with the shortfalls in the RMR auto brightness system is the lesser of two evils compared to intentionally setting your optic up to fail in some reactive situations if the lighting is wrong. YMMV. This is my biggest complaint about the micro-sized optics like the RMRcc and 507k - there are no auto brightness options on the market for those footprints. Wish there were; it's the one thing that keeps me from carrying my CZ P01.

 

[308pirate]

Be especially conscious of the optics that rely on "motion activated" electronics for good battery life - kind of a stupid feature for a concealed carry gun since it'll remain on the entire time you're wearing it. The one and only time I tried carrying one of those the battery died in less than 3 months, when the claim was something like 5 years (with a tiny * next to that in the literature of course). Motion activated electronics are fine for guns that spend most of their time in a safe; not so much for carry. Buyer beware.

Glad I'm not the only one who recognizes this as a gimmick.

 

[308pirate]

- Definitely mill the slide; skip the MOS stuff, it's not good enough. It's not about looks, it's about rigidity and having a solid setup you can drive nails with or smash the other guy's face in and rack the slide with the RMR against any nearby surface without concern of hurting it. A good milling job will have a snug fit, none of this loose BS that most pre-milled slides have where the optic drops in and wobbles around in the slot; a good custom job with a tight fit will have your optic returning to zero if you do have to remove it, and is a lot less likely to have screws loosen, back out, or break. Only thing I'd choose an MOS gun for is that new-ish Holosun optic that fits flush in the MOS slide without any plates; haven't tried that one though.

This is entirely debatable

• Jamming the optic's body into an interference fit (or even a very close fit) cavity can damage the electronics inside as they are most often physically connected to the housing. One company (C More) actually prohibits it for their STS and RTS optics.
• I have pistols that are direct milled and pistols with OEM plate systes. None of my plate systems are Glock. All are CZ and their design is about as bombproof as it gets, particularly using their OEM steel plates.
• I shoot approximately 20 to 30K rounds a year through optic equipped pistols. None has ever physically failed to hold the optic regardless of whether it is direct milled or on a plate adapter.

 

[maceface]

One thing I'm glad hasn't been brought up is which dot size to go with on a pistol. Whenever somebody brought up the perfect size dot to use on a pistol in an argument, I would always ask how many MOA wide the front sight they had on their gun was before they threw an RDS on top. Never once got a straight answer.

The vast majority of shooters I've trained, or trained with, couldn't stack all of their rounds under a 6.5 MOA dot at greater distances anyway (with very few exceptions). Or to put it better, a 6.5 MOA dot wouldn't be what held their shooting abilities back any more than using a 3.25 or even 1 MOA dot.

If the gun is going to be carried, get whatever size dot works best for you. If you're only going for X's at 25yds on a B-8, then maybe dot size is more critical.

 

[308pirate]

One thing I'm glad hasn't been brought up is which dot size to go with on a pistol. Whenever somebody brought up the perfect size dot to use on a pistol in an argument, I would always ask how many MOA wide the front sight they had on their gun was before they threw an RDS on top. Never once got a straight answer.

The vast majority of shooters I've trained, or trained with, couldn't stack all of their rounds under a 6.5 MOA dot at greater distances anyway (with very few exceptions). Or to put it better, a 6.5 MOA dot wouldn't be what held their shooting abilities back any more than using a 3.25 or even 1 MOA dot.

If the gun is going to be carried, get whatever size dot works best for you. If you're only going for X's at 25yds on a B-8, then maybe dot size is more critical.

Absolutely

There are very, very few pistols that can hold 2" at 25 yards. That is 8 moa. A pistol that holds 3" at 25 yards is a 12 moa pistol.

Assuming that one is more accurate with a 2 moa dot is completely idiotic, as a typical service pistol will spray a random pattern at least 6X bigger than that 2 moa dot at any distance.

I know.......math and critical thinking are hard for a lot of people. It's easier to just take what they see/hear on social media without thinking.

Here's what a 10 moa dot looks like on a USPSA target at 25 yards

This wasn't hard to do at speed with it:

 

[Milf Dots]

People thinking they need solar backup on a carry pistol optic make me laugh, as do those who think they need green or specialty reticles.

I care mostly about reliability and durability, and supporting the economies of free-er-ish nations. Not having to wait months for parts or replacement optics is a perk of that.

 

[CSTactical]

Some first hand reports can be found by google searches of "Acro P2 failure" and "Acro p2 battery life". The P2 was on my radar until some of the issues started popping up on various gun forums/groups and related YouTube videos. One of the first videos was this one from Barrel and Hatchet, Not So Duty Proven - Enclosed Emitter red dots In their case they have had some issues with most of the enclosed red dots. Also on YouTube M110 SASS Actual shows and talks about P2 failures in his battle royal enclosed emitter video. I've see reports of battery life only lasting a few months, cracked glass, buttons stop working, moisture inside unit. etc.

I have a number of friends with multiple P2's and none of them have had any issues except one has complained about battery life. My newest pistol I was thinking of trying a P2, but just decided to stick with the tried and true RMR (also the $100 RMR rebate helped with that decision). I did buy a used Steiner MPS from a buddy to try, and that's currently on a 12 oclock mount on one of my AR's.

I am very surprised your RMR's batteries don't last. The yearly replacement is still a good idea because CR2032's really aren't that expensive for some piece of mind in a carry/duty type gun. I have three RMR's (all RM06 models) on pistols. One is only a few months old, but the other two are around four years old still on their original batteries. I'll probably replace both batteries on my birthday this year. I did see the pic of the glass-less RMR failure, but the number of failures on RMR's pales in comparison to the millions? out there in the wild.

Hopefully, the hype on the new models dies down (and maybe the prices), and I get to buy one or two in the future.

Yes there were some issues with an early batch of ACRO P2's, but in general I have not seen it being an issue past that. I pay attention as we sell them and I personally carry one on my G19 MOS Daily. If there was a consistent issue we would send the 20 or so we have on hand back.

I also had the supplied battery in my P2 go out after 6 months, at first i was extremely disappointed and Aimpoint agreed to take it back to inspect it or send a new battery. Before I made my decision, I did some more research and have found that the anti-swallow coating is some time too thick and can cause the battery to die prematurely on some low drain electronics like an Aimpoint.

So I decided to get an industrial Duracell battery that was not suppose to be coated, from that point I went one year strong with no problems.
I now just change my batteries every January 1st proactively.


I'm going off of memory in my above post, I'll post some related links for reference.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45038-Battery-Life-and-Battery-Type

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?54143-Pistol-Red-Dot-Batteries

Aaron Cowan https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/fi...20Systems20for20Duty20Handgun20Use2028129.pdf


And I forgot to post what I actually carry...

 

[Racer88]

Be especially conscious of the optics that rely on "motion activated" electronics for good battery life - kind of a stupid feature for a concealed carry gun since it'll remain on the entire time you're wearing it. The one and only time I tried carrying one of those the battery died in less than 3 months,

Glad I'm not the only one who recognizes this as a gimmick.

I EDC a Holosun 507. It has the "shake awake" feature. Of course I'm quite aware that it is always on while I'm wearing it. But I don't wear my EDC while I'm sleeping, eh? So, when I'm asleep, it's asleep. It probably helps with the battery life.

I just checked my records, and the battery lasted almost exactly one year. It didn't go dead, but it was flickering.

It's worth mentioning that I had the outer ring of the "ACSS Vulcan" reticle turned on, which drains the battery much faster. That said, I don't need that out circle anymore and turning it off will extend the battery life quite a bit. I really like the chevron reticle.

In any case, I will be replacing the battery once a year.

PS... My first pistol optic on my HD pistol (FNP-45T) was a Trijicon RM07. While the "gold standard" of pistol optics, I prefer the Holosun.

 

[LeftyJason]

Absolutely

There are very, very few pistols that can hold 2" at 25 yards. That is 8 moa. A pistol that holds 3" at 25 yards is a 12 moa pistol.

Assuming that one is more accurate with a 2 moa dot is completely idiotic, as a typical service pistol will spray a random pattern at least 6X bigger than that 2 moa dot at any distance.

I know.......math and critical thinking are hard for a lot of people. It's easier to just take what they see/hear on social media without thinking.

Here's what a 10 moa dot looks like on a USPSA target at 25 yards
View attachment 8400096

This wasn't hard to do at speed with it:
View attachment 8400097

Have an enclosed green 2 & 32 setup on my Sig 322 that I got as a test and have liked it. Your comments in the other thread helped me decide when I get my Walther pdp pro it's going to be getting a 6moa dot.

People thinking they need solar backup on a carry pistol optic make me laugh, as do those who think they need green or specialty reticles.

I care mostly about reliability and durability, and supporting the economies of free-er-ish nations. Not having to wait months for parts or replacement optics is a perk of that.

Do I want solar? Heck no so I'm not getting it. Do I need green? No. Do I like green? Yes. Better than red.