Red dots on bolt guns

[Outcome]

I had a hard time finding a post about this already, so sorry if its already been beaten to death.

Outside of a mil/leo role why do people put red dots on offset mounts on their BOLT GUNS? I understand their use on an AR with a scope. I havent seen a ton of people doing it and when I did it wasnt the time to ask why. I understand coax mounts, ACIs and Levels.But are red dots just a cuz I want to put more junk on it thing? Would it work for a hunting type setting? I know Im reaching here, just trying to figure it out before I just write it/them off.

 

[dgheriani]

The point of a red dot on a bolt gun is to be able to quickly get your rifle on target. I run them on most of my rifles now. I thought it was some mall ninja shit but then I tried it and it's shocking how much faster I can get on target. I dial my 600 yard dope onto my optic and then line up on a target at around 600 and co-witness the the dot in the rds to the reticle in my optic. Set up like that, I can get behind the rifle, put the dot on pretty much any target from 200-1400 or so, drop behind the magnified optic and be on target. I also run one on my spotting scope for the same reason.

 

[Spblademaker]

Spotting scope makes sense, since you can only drop magnification so far, effecting your FOV. On your rifle, you should have no issues dialing down. Getting on target. Then increasing magnification, if needed. Unless, of course, your gun is locked down into some benchrest-type thing (actual technical term) and not very mobile. Going from one scope to another scope seems like a waste of time, otherwise. But it may increase your OAF/Tacticool rating. And chicks dig that stuff.

 

[abn31c]

@Spblademaker I agree for the most part, my long range rig just doesnt look as snipery with a crooked red dot on it. But I do have one on my socom, cause its for the "in the yard" kinda shit.

 

[dgheriani]

Spotting scope makes sense, since you can only drop magnification so far, effecting your FOV. On your rifle, you should have no issues dialing down. Getting on target. Then increasing magnification, if needed. Unless, of course, your gun is locked down into some benchrest-type thing (actual technical term) and not very mobile. Going from one scope to another scope seems like a waste of time, otherwise. But it may increase your OAF/Tacticool rating. And chicks dig that stuff.

It's always interesting to me when someone asks a question, then gets an answer from someone with experience pertaining directly to said question, to then have a bunch of people chiming in saying they have no experience with said question but that they think it's dumb/oaf/tacticool...

Can you mag down, find target, mag up? Sure. In my experience (and that of everyone I know who has tried it) it's faster to put the dot on target and drop behind your scope. Especially in awkward positions. Sure, some guys are very good at naturally "pointing" their rifle and just being on target (even at max magnification) and you can focus on that as a skill and improve. Or, in my case, I put a dot on my rifle, it made target acquisition that much faster and I focussed my time on working on other skills. Anecdotally, I've found that using a dot to get on target quick has improved my ability to "point" other rifles (without dots) on target faster as well, so looks like I'm learning...

 

[Spblademaker]

You said that you’re cowitnessing thru the optic. How is that a benefit, as you’re already looking thru the scope?I must be missing something?

The point of a red dot on a bolt gun is to be able to quickly get your rifle on target. I run them on most of my rifles now. I thought it was some mall ninja shit but then I tried it and it's shocking how much faster I can get on target. I dial my 600 yard dope onto my optic and then line up on a target at around 600 and co-witness the the dot in the rds to the reticle in my optic. Set up like that, I can get behind the rifle, put the dot on pretty much any target from 200-1400 or so, drop behind the magnified optic and be on target. I also run one on my spotting scope for the same reason.

 

[Rootshot]

Red dots on bolt guns appear to be popular in Europe.

This hog hunt video is pretty amazing:

He appears to be using an Aimpoint 30 series red dot.

 

[abn31c]

Ok, so I jumped in as a bit of a smart ass. OP I would suggest that acquiring your target in you're objective is basic rifle marksmanship. A bit of practice with eyes closed eyes open works well. Your brain wants to see what you are looking for. Turn the power down and try shooting at lower power, you may find it eases things a little. A red dot on a "precision " rig is a crutch.
Just my opinion, worth what you last flushed!

 

[dgheriani]

You said that you’re cowitnessing thru the optic. How is that a benefit, as you’re already looking thru the scope?I must be missing something?

Not co-witness in the sense of pistol or carbine irons being co-witnessed with a red dot but in the sense that the red dot is zeroed to the magnified optic's reticle at a set distance, same as with a rifle mounted range finder. Hence when you put the dot on target, your scope is also on target.

 

[NoLegs24]

I've been running RMR's on my bolt guns for a few years now. I'm not trying to waste time powering up and down on stages. Ain't nobody got time for that. Doesn't matter if shooting on belly or off props at matches. Give me all the power. I do what I want...

I do love it when dudes try to talk down on that. Right @hic28 ?? lol

From the Man himself, "I don't care what's on your rifle, as long as you use it" - J. Bynum

 

[Fig]

I’ve tried it and didn’t care for it. I’m sure if I made myself practice with it I’d feel differently.

That said, I can think of a couple of stages right off the top of my head where I struggled and it might have helped. Generally these are 800yd+ stages with small targets set in a wide arc with big transitions. You need some power to see the small targets (especially late in the day when there’s no paint left on them), but can’t zoom because you can’t afford to narrow your field because they’re hard to find.

 

[Spblademaker]

@dgheriani Yeah. Co-witnessing is not the term I would use in that scenario. That’s the cause for the confusion.

@NoLegs24 Are you running a 1MOA dot? I would think something larger, like a 3 MOA would obscure your actual target, unless it was very big.

 

[dgheriani]

@Spblademaker I dunno what the correct term would be then...

as far as dot size, I assume NoLegs24 is running a 3 MOA RMR? I run 2.5 MOA Deltapoint Pros. It doesn't matter that the dot obscures the target, the target will still be in your field of view when you drop behind the scope.

 

[NoLegs24]

@dgheriani Yeah. Co-witnessing is not the term I would use in that scenario. That’s the cause for the confusion.

@NoLegs24 Are you running a 1MOA dot? I would think something larger, like a 3 MOA would obscure your actual target, unless it was very big.

I run 1moa on my RMR's. I feel it's perfect. Haven't had any issues in being to fine of a dot even out to 2100y. I can find it very easily.

Here's the thing, people tend to lift their heads to find the target before getting on target behind the glass, why not make it faster and easier with a Red Dot?

A "poor man's" method is to find the target with the top of your turret. Scott Satterlee taught me this a while back, and I pass it along to everyone nowadays. Especially if they can't afford a RDS.

It lets me stay on higher Magnification, regardless of how many targets in a stage, if close or far, or heavy mirage. I train at full power. So I am used to it. Regardless of caliber. . I don't recommend to newer guys though.

I just see many guys waste time during a stage messing with their magnification. Cause once they power up, they tend to power down after the shot breaks cause they lack recoil management, and don't know where the shot actually went LOL

 

[slimJim2000]

I personally shoot with both eyes open and having some magnification on the optic even at fairly close range doesn't seem like a huge issue to me. I can see why people who shoot three gun like it though. A lot of AR-15 types stocks seem more suitable for being used that way with a offset red dot then what is on most bolt action rifles.

 

[hic28]

I've been running RMR's on my bolt guns for a few years now. I'm not trying to waste time powering up and down on stages. Ain't nobody got time for that. Doesn't matter if shooting on belly or off props at matches. Give me all the power. I do what I want...

I do love it when dudes try to talk down on that. Right @hic28 ?? lol

From the Man himself, "I don't care what's on your rifle, as long as you use it" - J. Bynum

Exactly. After shooting a while with the red dot on top I find myself not even using the scope anymore. It’s just so fast with the red dot, why even drop down to look back through your scope? I just keep the scope on the rifle cause it looks cool

See, shooting a stage only using the red dot at the NF ELR

 

[Fig]

I just sight down the barrel. Even faster.

 

[wade2big]

I have never heard of guys putting red dots on top of scopes on a bolt gun to help them find targets. Im sorry guys, that seems pointless to me.

 

[hic28]

I have never heard of guys putting red dots on top of scopes on a bolt gun to help them find targets. Im sorry guys, that seems pointless to me.

How often do you touch your magnification ring?

 

[Outcome]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I just got stuck in the mindset of guys doing it because they saw some mil guy doing it. I've had an rmr on my spotter for a few years now, but I always figured it would slow you down going back and forth from scope to rmr and back. maybe Ill take my offset off my AR and try it on the bolt gun if I ever make it back to a match this year.

 

[wade2big]

How often do you touch your magnification ring?

I don’t play games on the clock with my rifles. I hunt and target shoot only. I touch my magnification ring as necessary but i don’t shoot with much in the first place. Usually 10-14x most of the time is where it gets set when ringing steel. I look at a target and either bring the rifle up to my eye or my eye down to the rifle and never get lost in my scope. Do what works for you, but people that have been shooting their whole lives like me may give you a funny look. Lol

I get the red dot on a scoped AR for military apllications. House clearing to a few hundred yards in the drop of a hat.

 

[richthe1]

For those of you who run a RDS on your PRS gun, do you run it at a 45° angle or behind and above your elevation turret?

 

[NoLegs24]

Ah. The good ole “CQB” card... yeah dude, I have it on there just in case I want to clear houses with my bolt gun ?.

I prefer 12’clock. Easier to get set “zero” to co-align with your 300y dope for example.

The 45 degree was a pain in the ass to set it to align with Center cross hairs. Plus, you might see yourself inducing can’t every time you look through it, and get back behind the scope.

At 12’clock, you’re going to pick your head up to turn your turrets anyways. 2 birds with 1 stone

I dial my elevation to whatever come up my 300y is, I set my RDS and align it with center crosshairs. It’s easier to set it at a further distance cause a lot of matches are from 300y - 1k.

Stop setting it at 100y. Cause it’ll be much further off if I dial my 692y dope, and then try and find it with red dot.

 

[556ARs]

at long distance past 75yrds the dot covers up the game and is hard to see the vitals, basically 50yrds is max effective range great for .22's

 

[wade2big]

at long distance past 75yrds the dot covers up the game and is hard to see the vitals, basically 50yrds is max effective range great for .22's

They aren’t using them to shoot. They are using them to line the rifle up with the target before they look through the scope. ?‍

 

[NoLegs24]

They aren’t using them to shoot. They are using them to line the rifle up with the target before they look through the scope. ?‍

To be more specific, we use them so that when we get behind glass, that target will be inside of the FOV. Regardless of power on that optic


But house clearance sounds a lot cooler.

 

[hic28]

I don’t play games on the clock with my rifles. I hunt and target shoot only. I touch my magnification ring as necessary but i don’t shoot with much in the first place. Usually 10-14x most of the time is where it gets set when ringing steel. I look at a target and either bring the rifle up to my eye or my eye down to the rifle and never get lost in my scope. Do what works for you, but people that have been shooting their whole lives like me may give you a funny look. Lol

I get the red dot on a scoped AR for military apllications. House clearing to a few hundred yards in the drop of a hat.

Do you shoot varmints?

 

[Wrongtarget]

“I don’t play games on the clock with my rifles.” lol That’s funny right there. Lots of people do to better their hunting and targets skills. Including current snipers looking to step up their game.
If all you do is hunt then good on you. But if you don’t understand the “why” as to the reason competition shooters do this you haven’t shot at 5 different targets at different distances in 2 minutes or less. Worse in a field match.

 

[Outcome]

I shoot in matches, horribly I might add, to help highlight my weaknesses. I'm in the Marines and have had some of the best marksmanship training they have to offer afforded to me. The best thing Ive done, as well as my colleagues and instructors, was start to compete. I currently shoot steel challenge, 2-gun, and PRS (all club level) when I have the time. If I didnt compete I would rarely have the opportunities to push my abilities in some of the more complex scenarios that arent found in most peoples training. Sure guys can go 100% gamer, but at the end of the day they have more stress inoculation than people who call it a game, trying to pass over the uncomfortable thought that they arent as good of a shot at they think they are.

 

[wade2big]

“I don’t play games on the clock with my rifles.” lol That’s funny right there. Lots of people do to better their hunting and targets skills. Including current snipers looking to step up their game.
If all you do is hunt then good on you. But if you don’t understand the “why” as to the reason competition shooters do this you haven’t shot at 5 different targets at different distances in 2 minutes or less. Worse in a field match.

I didn’t say anything negative towards people who play games with their rifles. I just stated that I didn’t play them. I understand competition completely. I just prefer physical competition. You read into my words and took away the meaning incorrectly. I said it like that so you guys know where I am coming from. Either way i think a red dot on a high power scope is silly at least used in this context.

 

[NoLegs24]

@wade2big - you should come out to the Riflemans Team Challenge Matches, and show us what that physcial competition is made of? A ton of Hunters and Military dudes love those matches. It relates to them much more than a standard NRL/ PRS match.

In all seriousness, you can call it whatever you like. I ain't mad at you.

I am going to do a High Angle Hunters Clinic up at Riggins, ID next week with Sawtooth Rifles. Best believe I am going to take a 20lb rifle, shoot at full power, and utilize my red dot. haha right @mlpkhl

 

[dgheriani]

@wade2big - you should come out to the Riflemans Team Challenge Matches, and show us what that physcial competition is made of? A ton of Hunters and Military dudes love those matches. It relates to them much more than a standard NRL/ PRS match.

In all seriousness, you can call it whatever you like. I ain't mad at you.

I am going to do a High Angle Hunters Clinic up at Riggins, ID next week with Sawtooth Rifles. Best believe I am going to take a 20lb rifle, shoot at full power, and utilize my red dot. haha right @mlpkhl

RTC are my favourite matches bar none. Especially the ones Carl (and Frank) puts on in Colville. Perfect example of a match where having a red dot on your precision rifle is a huge advantage, shooting through all those natural loopholes. I know at least 2 teams in the top 5 at the SHC this year were running rds on their rifles . Seen you and Serge there 2 years running, will finally say hey next year.

 

[abn31c]

“I don’t play games on the clock with my rifles.” lol That’s funny right there. Lots of people do to better their hunting and targets skills. Including current snipers looking to step up their game.
If all you do is hunt then good on you. But if you don’t understand the “why” as to the reason competition shooters do this you haven’t shot at 5 different targets at different distances in 2 minutes or less. Worse in a field match.

Please describe "current snipers" thnx.

 

[clcustom1911]

Red dots on bolt guns appear to be popular in Europe.

This hog hunt video is pretty amazing:

He appears to be using an Aimpoint 30 series red dot.

Whatever fucking action that is.... We needs it, we wants it....

Amazing shooting.

 

[Outcome]

Please describe "current snipers" thnx.

A fair amount of both Army Snipers and Marine Scout Snipers compete, hell the ASC is made up of teams from around the world who are snipers competing. An easy example would be quite a few guys shooting for Team RSF are still in, where as a more notable mil, now leo, would be John McQuay.

 

[abn31c]

A fair amount of both Army Snipers and Marine Scout Snipers compete, hell the ASC is made up of teams from around the world who are snipers competing. An easy example would be quite a few guys shooting for Team RSF are still in, where as a more notable mil, now leo, would be John McQuay.

I didn't ask you

 

[Dthomas3523]

I didn't ask you

Lol......asshole much?

 

[NoLegs24]

I didn't ask you

Damn sweetheart, don't get your panties in a wad. Or you don't like the facts?

I am going to use my crutch of a RDS, just for you baby ?

 

[kthomas]

RTC are my favourite matches bar none. Especially the ones Carl (and Frank) puts on in Colville. Perfect example of a match where having a red dot on your precision rifle is a huge advantage, shooting through all those natural loopholes. I know at least 2 teams in the top 5 at the SHC this year were running rds on their rifles . Seen you and Serge there 2 years running, will finally say hey next year.

The only match I've competed in where I wish I had a red dot sight to help finding targets was the Carl Taylor SHC PRS match a few years ago. Finding targets at that match was tough through any magnification, something I usually never struggle with.

 

[kthomas]

Ok, so I jumped in as a bit of a smart ass. OP I would suggest that acquiring your target in you're objective is basic rifle marksmanship. A bit of practice with eyes closed eyes open works well. Your brain wants to see what you are looking for. Turn the power down and try shooting at lower power, you may find it eases things a little. A red dot on a "precision " rig is a crutch.
Just my opinion, worth what you last flushed!

Not a crutch, just another tool in the bag.

I don't currently have a RDS on my rifle, but I did play with it for a while. Most matches it's not really necessary/helpful, as finding targets is more or less fairly straight forward, especially for those that have been playing the game for a while.

In field matches, like say the SHC PRS match in Colville WA a few years back that I attended, it was really difficult to find certain targets on certain stages with any sort of magnification. Targets that were in the shadows in the trees, and were all shot up so had very little paint left on them, were incredibly difficult to find at times. Easier with the bare eye (at least it was easy to find the tree that cast the shadow on the target for example), but once you dropped behind some magnification it could get frustrating in a hurry. Honestly, not something that I'm used to struggling at, but that ate a lot of competitors up that match.

If you don't see the value in it, then you simply haven't shot in areas/conditions where it can prove valuable. I'd say most places it's really not necessary. As I stated, I don't currently use an RDS as the vast majority of the areas I shoot its unnecessary. If I shot a lot more in areas like Colville WA, I very well may have an RDS on my precision rifle.

 

[abn31c]

Damn sweetheart, don't get your panties in a wad. Or you don't like the facts?

I am going to use my crutch of a RDS, just for you baby ?

Hehe, sweetheart. Lol

 

[Wrongtarget]

Please describe "current snipers" thnx.

As you seem to need a specific response I didn’t want to get it wrong.
From WWW.DICTIONARY.COM
Current: passing in time; belonging to the time actually passing:the current month.
Sniper: a rifleman who fires from a concealed place, esp a military marksman who firesfrom cover usually at long ranges at individual enemy soldiers.
Snipers: Plural of above.
Guessing you got it from here? thnx

 

[Outcome]

I didn't ask you

Acting like a dick wont make yours bigger. If you want to sling shit just for the sake of it, go do it somewhere else.

 

[abn31c]

Not a crutch, just another tool in the bag.

I don't currently have a RDS on my rifle, but I did play with it for a while. Most matches it's not really necessary/helpful, as finding targets is more or less fairly straight forward, especially for those that have been playing the game for a while.

In field matches, like say the SHC PRS match in Colville WA a few years back that I attended, it was really difficult to find certain targets on certain stages with any sort of magnification. Targets that were in the shadows in the trees, and were all shot up so had very little paint left on them, were incredibly difficult to find at times. Easier with the bare eye (at least it was easy to find the tree that cast the shadow on the target for example), but once you dropped behind some magnification it could get frustrating in a hurry. Honestly, not something that I'm used to struggling at, but that ate a lot of competitors up that match.

If you don't see the value in it, then you simply haven't shot in areas/conditions where it can prove valuable. I'd say most places it's really not necessary. As I stated, I don't currently use an RDS as the vast majority of the areas I shoot its unnecessary. If I shot a lot more in areas like Colville WA, I very well may have an RDS on my precision rifle.

I'll go along with most of this, my take on the op was basic struggling to aquire target in optic, a little repetitive practice can improve this. I'm an asshole because I've been told that if I dont understand the concept then I've never engaged 5 targets in a stage on the clock, huh. And yes I'm familiar with the colville area, grew up in Wa. Brother in Colville, was there in june. Just never seen a scenario where another optic on a rifle would benefit. If it works for you, great.

 

[abn31c]

That explains it all "sniper" thank you.

 

[abn31c]

Acting like a dick wont make yours bigger. If you want to sling shit just for the sake of it, go do it somewhere else.

Where was I a dick? Just an opinion sweetheart.