Anyone running a red dot over their scope on their match rifles? Just wondering what everyone is using and if it does help with faster target acquisition
- Thread starter Mormegil87
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I ran one, and would do so again. I definitely found it easier for target acquisition. Last team match out west I even ran one on the spotting scope and it helped to talk my partner on to targets.
I used a cheap vortex dot, forgot the name but I didn’t want to drop too much coin on a dot for this purpose.
I think it’s helpful.
I used a cheap vortex dot, forgot the name but I didn’t want to drop too much coin on a dot for this purpose.
I think it’s helpful.
I like the idea. A few guys I shoot with run them. Seems to work well for them. Never ran one but would be interested in seeing it in my rifle, workflow, position building and target acquisition, etc.
I've always been curious of if/where they are zerod to and at what ranges are they most effective in getting on target.
I don't know what I don't know.
I've always been curious of if/where they are zerod to and at what ranges are they most effective in getting on target.
I don't know what I don't know.
I run one on my spotter, and it helps me get onto small targets that are out there farther, a little quicker. No panning around trying to find it. Put the dot on it, and the scope is on it. Easy as that.
Depending on the course of fire, a dot can be a big help sometimes.
At a place like K&M where there are fields with as many as 3 COF’s being shot by 3 separate squads at the same time, and/or multiple target arrays at multiple distances/locations, the dot can seriously save one some time.
Given a choice between working a throw lever to scan for targets or just using a dot, I’d pick the dot every time.
I “zero” mine for 500 yards and find it gets me on target from about any distance between ~200-1000yrds (I don’t shoot anything using it, just to get my rifle on target).
I was running an RMR on top of my scope, but I’m going to throw on a cheap Holosun or Sig Aimpoint clone that’s enclosed, because I found out the hard way that rain + open reflex = no bueno. Plus, if my ~23lb rifle were to ever fall on it, it’d be toast lol.
At a place like K&M where there are fields with as many as 3 COF’s being shot by 3 separate squads at the same time, and/or multiple target arrays at multiple distances/locations, the dot can seriously save one some time.
Given a choice between working a throw lever to scan for targets or just using a dot, I’d pick the dot every time.
I “zero” mine for 500 yards and find it gets me on target from about any distance between ~200-1000yrds (I don’t shoot anything using it, just to get my rifle on target).
I was running an RMR on top of my scope, but I’m going to throw on a cheap Holosun or Sig Aimpoint clone that’s enclosed, because I found out the hard way that rain + open reflex = no bueno. Plus, if my ~23lb rifle were to ever fall on it, it’d be toast lol.
When you say you zeroed the red dot at 500, did you co-witness at 500? Or actually zero to a target?
I co-witness the dot to my center reticle, anytime my dot is on target so is my reticle.
I co-witness an IPSC or something at 500 yards and set that as the dots "zero", that way when you put the dot on a target and then get behind the scope, the target is in your FOV.
Not to completely discount the idea of a red-dot, but have you considered the alternative of honing your instinctive aim/point/NPA skill?
For me a huge part of match stage prep is target identification naked eye. Watch other people shoot, glass to see what targets look like under magnification, but ultimately I pay more attention to seeing targets outside of glass. I want to be stepping up to the firing line for my turn being able to see and point that my targets are exactly there/there/there and there. We shoot some matches that are condensed firing line where you are literally shooting into a SEA of steel targets. Point your scope anywhere an you're going to see a target, probably the wrong one. We shoot other matches that are field matches where it's nothing but a rocky hillside or and you'd never find the target if you didn't know where it was. Some have tons of reference points like rocks/trees and others are literally a tall grass hillside with nothing on it and where you can't see the target naked eye if you tried. All these require some sort of reference point/triangulation so you can establish where you are going to point to find the target, so a lot of stage prep goes into memorizing that before shooting.
Then on the training side just practice, practice, practice until you can build position and point rifle and have the target already in scope. I think that aiming and NPA are deeply intertwined, to the point where you're not just aiming your gun but you're aiming your whole body position oriented around the gun. When I started out I had a heck of a tough time accurately pointing and positioning, but with practice I can now pick any spot naked eye, build a position at any barricade height, and have the target in scope even at 25x power. Started with wider FOV, made mental notes of where my aim point was trending, adjust, refine, repeat, zoom in to narrow FOV and make it more precise, etc. When I'm on the clock now if I drop into position and don't see the target, rather than backing out the magnification or hunting in circles through glass, I fall back to naked eye - identify the target - rebuild/repoint and I'm almost always target in glass.
I think short term a red dot might help, but if you watch the very best shooters they tend to be really good at build/point/aim with no hunting for targets. Long term red dot might impede the process of natural point of aim since you've got a head-reposition movement required to go from red dot to optic and it wouldn't be as quick as point/shoot. Some of the top guys in PRS run pretty high magnification too, I want to say that I've heard Dave Preston shot at 25-27x most all the time, and I know there are others as well.
For me a huge part of match stage prep is target identification naked eye. Watch other people shoot, glass to see what targets look like under magnification, but ultimately I pay more attention to seeing targets outside of glass. I want to be stepping up to the firing line for my turn being able to see and point that my targets are exactly there/there/there and there. We shoot some matches that are condensed firing line where you are literally shooting into a SEA of steel targets. Point your scope anywhere an you're going to see a target, probably the wrong one. We shoot other matches that are field matches where it's nothing but a rocky hillside or and you'd never find the target if you didn't know where it was. Some have tons of reference points like rocks/trees and others are literally a tall grass hillside with nothing on it and where you can't see the target naked eye if you tried. All these require some sort of reference point/triangulation so you can establish where you are going to point to find the target, so a lot of stage prep goes into memorizing that before shooting.
Then on the training side just practice, practice, practice until you can build position and point rifle and have the target already in scope. I think that aiming and NPA are deeply intertwined, to the point where you're not just aiming your gun but you're aiming your whole body position oriented around the gun. When I started out I had a heck of a tough time accurately pointing and positioning, but with practice I can now pick any spot naked eye, build a position at any barricade height, and have the target in scope even at 25x power. Started with wider FOV, made mental notes of where my aim point was trending, adjust, refine, repeat, zoom in to narrow FOV and make it more precise, etc. When I'm on the clock now if I drop into position and don't see the target, rather than backing out the magnification or hunting in circles through glass, I fall back to naked eye - identify the target - rebuild/repoint and I'm almost always target in glass.
I think short term a red dot might help, but if you watch the very best shooters they tend to be really good at build/point/aim with no hunting for targets. Long term red dot might impede the process of natural point of aim since you've got a head-reposition movement required to go from red dot to optic and it wouldn't be as quick as point/shoot. Some of the top guys in PRS run pretty high magnification too, I want to say that I've heard Dave Preston shot at 25-27x most all the time, and I know there are others as well.
The red dot, for me isn't really a replacement for NPA but an enhancement. Unfortunately I only have my DFAT and a single range with one lane out 565 to practice on. Can only practice NPA so much when the target is in the same place on the same lane from the same firing line.
Our matches here are a combination of being on a 600yd lane and a field match with targets spread out over a field. If the red dot can help me get orientated as I'm locking in behind the gun so be it. The goal, over time is to find myself not using it then remove it. Until, then, if it can help me get set up and get my NPA faster I'm going to run it.
Our matches here are a combination of being on a 600yd lane and a field match with targets spread out over a field. If the red dot can help me get orientated as I'm locking in behind the gun so be it. The goal, over time is to find myself not using it then remove it. Until, then, if it can help me get set up and get my NPA faster I'm going to run it.
I agree that there's no substitute for working on one's NPA, in the end that works every time and with any rifle. IMHO the dot is just another tool in the toolbox that can be useful depending on the circumstances.
For me, it's more about mitigating some of the craziness, just using the dot to help make an unfamiliar situation seem easier to deal with, because being somewhat new to PRS matches, often times the newness and unfamiliarity of some of the crazier COF's is more challenging than any of the targets.
Showing up to some of these matches, the guys who've been doing it longer have a big advantage: experience. I feel like sometimes (not all the time), using a tool like the dot can help some of us newer to the game close more of that experience gap then we might otherwise.
For me, it's more about mitigating some of the craziness, just using the dot to help make an unfamiliar situation seem easier to deal with, because being somewhat new to PRS matches, often times the newness and unfamiliarity of some of the crazier COF's is more challenging than any of the targets.
Showing up to some of these matches, the guys who've been doing it longer have a big advantage: experience. I feel like sometimes (not all the time), using a tool like the dot can help some of us newer to the game close more of that experience gap then we might otherwise.
Absolutely agree. I think 75% of success at matches is about this exact issue - knowing the target order and location, finding targets and building positions efficiently. Pulling the trigger is the easy part.
You don't need too much terrain to practice NPA and position building. The size of my dry fire "lane" is about 10 wide x 4 tall if you were to go edge to edge of the FOV of my scope at 25x. However, it's varied enough that I can look at something specific like "top of that green branch on the left" and force myself to build a position on a ladder pointing at that. If I don't hit it in scope, I get up pick up my gear and start again. Each time pick a different random spot to aim at, and a different height on a barricade or ladder.
Even with a single lane single target range, it's something you could practice while waiting for the barrel to cool down. Just aim at different stuff.
Great advice! I agree 100% with everything you said here and above. If newer shooters do that and back off the scope power (to 10-ish, depending on the range), I think they will see a pretty immediate benefit. Plus, at a lower power the wobble shouldn't bother them as much.
I don’t see the red dot as a crutch, you can have good fundamentals (NPA) and utilize a dot target acquisition, if it helps. They’re not mutually exclusive. It’s just another tool.
To those that run a red dot, does glass quality matter? Wasnt sure if the $400 ones were that much better than say a $180 considering its just used for target acquisition.
I just got mine and I didn't care about glass quality but I found a demo model Razor on Eurooptic
What are y’all using to mount them on your rings?
I'm running Hawkins Heavy Tacs with the bridge. I went with the Vortex over Holosun because they include a pic mount base.
Right. Just trying to find a mount. I see some people using it with Spuhr mounts too. Just not sure what it’s called. The vortex venoms are nice! I run one on my .22 pistol. They’re pretty rugged.
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