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Red Flag Laws. Should the smart people be in charge??

Like I said, it's what the "Baker Act" is for.....( in Florida) or "Section 5150" in California.


If you look at who has standing to pink slip somebody, it is a handful of categories. So you initiate [successfully] the initial involuntary psych hold, somebody is held for 72 hours, perhaps admitted for 7-14 days beyond the initial 72 hour hold as a result of their post-intake hearing (hearing that takes place after the initial 72 hour hold is up), given a diagnosis, released into the community with meds, and told to take those meds. They probably needed to be held for 60-120 days with a real treatment plan, but they have no health insurance and Medicaid isn't paying much, so the hospital cuts them loose quite quickly.

There are legions of people walking around in public who are under court orders to take psych meds.

From the 1940s-1960s we had several hundred thousand beds available for psychiatric state hospitals. Peak year was 1955 with 337 psychiatric beds per 100,000 population. As of 2018 we have 39 psychiatric beds per 100,000 population. About 1/9th the beds for a nation with two times the population.


Frankly the USA has a metric shit ton of crazy people and no viable plan or policy for how to address any of this.
 
The constitution doesn’t(well, in theory at least) limit the citizens of the country. It’s supposed to limit how much damage the federal gov can do

Yea. But the reality is they can do to you pretty much whatever they want. So we will continue to suffer under all these licensing schemes until scotus throws them out. This is hard to do when a certain thing isn’t spelled out in the constitution.
 
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Yea. But the reality is they can do to you pretty much whatever they want. So we will continue to suffer under all these licensing schemes until scotus throws them out. This is hard to do when a certain thing isn’t spelled out in the constitution.
My point was that the distinction between rights and privileges is completely misunderstood. Everything you do that isn’t initiating aggression against someone is your right as a human being. The fact that this has been so distorted by fedgov is disgusting.

I don't mean to sidetrack any conversation, I just want to point this out when I see it because it get overlooked so often
 
As to the question of "who should have standing to initiate a proceeding?"

I would answer, "anybody who is willing to suffer the consequences and pay the costs associated with initiating a bad faith proceeding or abusing legal process."

In short, a red flag gun law statute should have a provision that any individual who is found to have initiated a proceeding in bad faith or for an ulterior purpose, shall be liable to pay statutory damages of $25,000.00 dollars to the respondent in the proceeding as well as all attorney fees incurred by the respondent and the court costs associated with the proceedings that were initiated. A conclusion of bad faith shall not rest solely upon the respondent defeating the petition, but must require a showing that the petitioner lacked any reasonable basis to believe that the respondent was a danger to himself or others, or that no reasonable individual would have concluded the respondent was a threat to himself or others, or a combination of such factors."

An ex-girlfriend initiating a proceeding to compromise the firearms rights of her gunsmith ex-bf, while she knows he is not a threat to himself or others, would be a classic example of bad faith and an ulterior motive.

That would likely provide sufficient basis to prevent a neighborhood Karen from initiating a proceeding on the basis that she doesn't like her Marine vet neighbor who flies the Don't Tread on Me flag alongside the USMC flag while sporting a MAGA bumper stick on his truck, but people would likely feel empowered and safe enough to initiate a proceeding to head-off the next Bath School disaster.

A rather interesting question, particularly in light of the fact that my main term paper in law school was on the exact topic of mental illness and the implications for firearms rights that a mental illness diagnosis has, and covered firearms rights for the mentally ill, formerly mentally ill, different standards of review used, and this was back when only one or two states had "red flag gun laws." It is about 4,000 words and I would be glad to share it, but unless you have an intellectual appreciation for the law and legal analysis, a law degree, or a particular interest in a discussion on mental health and firearms rights/laws, it will probably be dry and boring. Some of the focus is on the [then existing] circuit split with the 6th Circuit using intermediate scrutiny and the 4th circuit using strict scrutiny. However, as my paper was pre-Bruen, and we now live in a Bruen world, a lot of the legal arguments/analysis in my paper are sort of obsolete or focused on standards of review that are likely no longer current.

My conclusion was that nothing much will happen in regards to progress due to lack of interest in pursuing serious solutions, lack of understanding by judges of mental illness (almost all judges lack medical/psychological backgrounds), lack of safeguards for individual rights, and ultimately deadlock and gridlock preventing any workable or viable solutions.

The approach of, "let's pretend mental health is great in the USA and continue doing nothing other than drugging teenagers and young adults with Big Pharma dope and then wondering how and why they are melting down and gunning down people in public" obviously hasn't been working.


I suspect the Second Amendment in the USA is going to die the death of a thousand cuts because of the refusal of society to do anything about the dangerously violent mentally ill people in our midst, while burying our heads in the sand and insisting, "I don't want any law passed that might be useful for curtailing the mentally ill from going postal, because in some scenario I can conceive of, it could or would be used against me or abused against me." Eventually, the average American is going to throw their hands up and shout, "enough is enough, I'll accept any offered solution" and some slick smooth talking politician is going to come along and pitch them on a total gun ban or a total semi-auto ban. We're at a point where the Second Amendment can plausibly go either way of "total restoration of all major rights, end of most federal regulations" or "a near complete civilian ownership ban." Either one could happen in the next 5 years.

Approximately 20% of American adults have an active mental health diagnosis, post-Plandemic it is probably hovering closer to 30-35% of Americans. Hell, about 35% of middle-aged women are on SSRIs. If the best we can come up with is, "under no circumstances can any guns ever be taken from anybody for any purpose no matter how compelling the justification or the reason, because, muh rights won't be infringed" then we're going to have a whole hell of a lot of Charles Whitmans climbing towers and it is ultimately only going to be a matter of time before the bulk of people, looking for a one-size fits all, easy fix, "no brainer" solution, decide, "well let's just ban all semi-automatic guns and be done with this."

The NFA was closed to post-86 machine guns for civilians in 1986. If a lawful NFA holder snapped and used an M2 Browning to kill 500+ people at some public event, that might be all it takes to spur a nationwide NFA round-up/confiscation. If NFA guy began to hear voices, telling him he was the angel of death and his mission is to "usher in the end for the wicked" and he was telling his friends that he has a "sacred mission" and the details of this supposed mission, somebody should be able to utilize a legal mechanism to intervene before there is a triple digit body count.

82% of Americans are vaccinated, and I have never found any stories of any Americans using force to oppose police/Guardsmen who were doing door-to-door gun confiscation in the New Orleans area in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. As a practical matter, if there is a nationwide gun ban in the USA, particularly if it is "only" applicable to semi-autos, I predict the vast majority of Americans who are covered by the ban, will at best peacefully disobey, many will affirmatively comply, virtually none will engage in violence over such a thing.

A friend of mine once described the situation as, "hopeless but not serious" meaning the situation is dire and nobody takes it seriously.

There is a blatantly colossal problem with mental health in the USA, we are effectively offering no solutions, so we shouldn't be shocked that those who despise are stepping up to fill the void. Approximately 60,000,000 Americans as of 2021 had an active mental illness diagnosis, with the most common being depression and anxiety, followed by bipolar disorder. If these problems are going to be addressed it would be nice if they are addressed by people who are not ideologically against us and who are publicly committed to mass disarmament.

Bravo.

Thanks I was looking for that. Sadly that sound like it makes sense so that means it will never happen.
 
@LawTalker

I don't know how that all works, but could there be an "express lane" on the bad faith type deal. Something like, ok we know you are not crazy, this waco lady over here clearly wanted to "get" you......ok lady you owe this guy $25k + his fees, this is set in stone, shut up about it and pay up. If you don't start cutting checks in a week you will have a new room mate named Wanda poking you with a toilet brush.

To be serious for a sec, this is what I was trying to get across but did not have the brains to do. Something needs to happen as clearly what we got now ain't working.

I think there are people that know how to "fix" this. Just like there are people that know how to "fix" about every issue out there. The issue is however that the "fix" will limit their power, cut off their money, or something along these lines. I don't think anyone calling the shots anymore really want to do the hard things to fix stuff. In many cases they can't even if they wanted to, the legal challenges to whatever they did would be crippling.

A real change will need to be global.
 
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The libs aren’t going to let this go. This is a way too easy mechanism for them to disarm the public. No criminal conviction, only a one sided argument with a lower burden of proof, the only thing standing in their way is the honesty of the judge.
 
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The libs aren’t going to let this go. This is a way too easy mechanism for them to disarm the public. No criminal conviction, only a one sided argument with a lower burden of proof, the only thing standing in their way is the honesty of the judge.
Honesty of the judge.....I am coming to think there is no such thing.
 
If this mental illness danger threat thing is so serious then it warrants arrest of the individual pending an adversarial hearing. Otherwise all parties involved need to mind their own business.
 
You can’t treat a person like a criminal without a criminal proceeding. If you want to use a civil proceeding to impose criminal sanctions then you need to afford all of the due process protections to the individual.
 
@LawTalker

I don't know how that all works, but could there be an "express lane" on the bad faith type deal. Something like, ok we know you are not crazy, this waco lady over here clearly wanted to "get" you......ok lady you owe this guy $25k + his fees, this is set in stone, shut up about it and pay up. If you don't start cutting checks in a week you will have a new room mate named Wanda poking you with a toilet brush.

To be serious for a sec, this is what I was trying to get across but did not have the brains to do. Something needs to happen as clearly what we got now ain't working.

I think there are people that know how to "fix" this. Just like there are people that know how to "fix" about every issue out there. The issue is however that the "fix" will limit their power, cut off their money, or something along these lines. I don't think anyone calling the shots anymore really want to do the hard things to fix stuff. In many cases they can't even if they wanted to, the legal challenges to whatever they did would be crippling.

A real change will need to be global.
One way of guaranteeing compliance but also not necessarily removing said person from society is classifying uncooperative people as outlaws. I know this term has come to mean something like someone who doesn’t follow the law but it’s sort of the opposite. It actually means that laws are not applicable to said person. If they are clearly guilty of crimes and won’t pay any restitution or comply with any court issued decrees, then laws don’t work for you. I know this sounds extreme but it worked pretty well back in the frontier days and I think it could become useful again
 
The libs aren’t going to let this go. This is a way too easy mechanism for them to disarm the public. No criminal conviction, only a one sided argument with a lower burden of proof, the only thing standing in their way is the honesty of the judge.

And remember, judges and LE have to work with each other (in effect depending on each other) on a daily basis. If it becomes a "we said/they said," I think we know on which side the judge will lean. Especially when it comes to regulating/controlling firearms.

For example, take the process of getting a concealed carry permit in the PRNJ (yes, believe it or not, some do exist) :eek:!Basically, it's the same process as getting the FPID (Firearms Purchaser ID card) and P2P (Permit to purchase handguns) in NJ just to be able to purchase firearms. You fill out the forms, pay the money and turn it all in to the CLEO of your municipality (or the NJSP local barracks if your location is covered by them). More than likely, it will be denied at this level. But, even if the CCW application is approved by your CLEO (usually for political reasons). the request must then go to a judge in your county that is assigned to give final approval for the permit, and that is where it will usually stop. The judge won't approve it, even for retired LEOs under LEOSA. One has to have a very close connection to that judge (be a celebrity, have lawyers who know the judge, etc.) to be able to get that approval. Otherwise, it ain't happening.

Judges don't have the time to get into the nitty gritty details of an ERPO case. They're simply going to trust the LEOs and sign it. Very little risk to them.
 
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Tucker carlson just did a segment on how Branden will use "Christian Nationalism" (moniker for another importnat group of terrorist) before the next election.



Watch this and Red Flag laws merge.
 
W
If you look at who has standing to pink slip somebody, it is a handful of categories. So you initiate [successfully] the initial involuntary psych hold, somebody is held for 72 hours, perhaps admitted for 7-14 days beyond the initial 72 hour hold as a result of their post-intake hearing (hearing that takes place after the initial 72 hour hold is up), given a diagnosis, released into the community with meds, and told to take those meds. They probably needed to be held for 60-120 days with a real treatment plan, but they have no health insurance and Medicaid isn't paying much, so the hospital cuts them loose quite quickly.

There are legions of people walking around in public who are under court orders to take psych meds.

From the 1940s-1960s we had several hundred thousand beds available for psychiatric state hospitals. Peak year was 1955 with 337 psychiatric beds per 100,000 population. As of 2018 we have 39 psychiatric beds per 100,000 population. About 1/9th the beds for a nation with two times the population.


Frankly the USA has a metric shit ton of crazy people and no viable plan or policy for how to address any of this.
What’s your personal, no shit feeling on red flag laws? Not a bunch of fancy words that most of us uneducated fellas can’t read or comprehend, just anglish
 
W

What’s your personal, no shit feeling on red flag laws? Not a bunch of fancy words that most of us uneducated fellas can’t read or comprehend, just anglish

The concept is not inherently unconstitutional but most of the laws, as currently written, are unconstitutional.

The concept of being able to raise a concern that, "this person is possibly about to do something horrific and should be stopped" is constitutional.

The ability of any random person to drag somebody into a proceeding, with a pre-hearing termination of rights, is quite likely unconstitutional. As for a post-hearing termination? That is probably constitutional depending on the level of due process and the evidentiary standards.


The basic concept is not unsound, but the "usual suspects" are the ones writing the laws and enacting the laws and tasking themselves with making the rulings. This should be alarming.

I would prefer a society where no such laws exist, because the potential for abuse of such laws is going to be potentially endless. With that said, given that 20-30% of American adults are seriously mentally ill, something more than nothing, has to be done.
 
The concept is not inherently unconstitutional but most of the laws, as currently written, are unconstitutional.

Agreed.

The concept of being able to raise a concern that, "this person is possibly about to do something horrific and should be stopped" is constitutional.

Also agreed.

The ability of any random person to drag somebody into a proceeding, with a pre-hearing termination of rights, is quite likely unconstitutional.

It's definitely unconstitutional AFAIC, violating the due process clauses of both the 5th and 14th amendments. I'm sorry, but any "ex parte" court proceeding that prohibits the defense from even knowing about it, let alone being present to defend their client, is *not* due process. It just isn't.

As for a post-hearing termination? That is probably constitutional depending on the level of due process and the evidentiary standards.

Agreed, again. The court/judge determines the penalty, ultimately, sometimes with input from the jury (i.e. trial penalty phase etc.).. But as long as it's done then, after a full summary adjudication (i.e. after appeals are exhausted, etc.), then the defendant can be deprived of their property if forfeiture of property is part of the sentence. That's where it should be done.

The basic concept is not unsound, but the "usual suspects" are the ones writing the laws and enacting the laws and tasking themselves with making the rulings. This should be alarming.

Along with those "enforcing" the laws... and the discretion they have to do it.


I would prefer a society where no such laws exist, because the potential for abuse of such laws is going to be potentially endless. With that said, given that 20-30% of American adults are seriously mentally ill, something more than nothing, has to be done.

And that's fine! As long as "what is being done" does not compromise the civil/constitutional rights of law abiding citizens. Currently written Red Flag laws and Civil Asset forfeiture practices compromise those rights, or have significant potential to do that. Potential that make both unacceptable.
 
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If this mental illness danger threat thing is so serious then it warrants arrest of the individual pending an adversarial hearing. Otherwise all parties involved need to mind their own business.
LEO are generally the first ones outside the family to deal with it. I could give examples for days.

16yr old kid, "off his meds", parents call the cops as he is just destroying everything in the house, punched the mother, sister, knife throwing..... By the time the cops get there, the kid is in a car and tries to runover the cop standing by some bushes, cop is hit (not in his car but on foot), shoots kid killing him. Parents sue cops.

I could go on for days, some of them are really bad, sucks bad, but they are unhinged and they will try to kill you. My office has lost one person to this.
 
LEO are generally the first ones outside the family to deal with it. I could give examples for days.

16yr old kid, "off his meds", parents call the cops as he is just destroying everything in the house, punched the mother, sister, knife throwing..... By the time the cops get there, the kid is in a car and tries to runover the cop standing by some bushes, cop is hit (not in his car but on foot), shoots kid killing him. Parents sue cops.

I could go on for days, some of them are really bad, sucks bad, but they are unhinged and they will try to kill you. My office has lost one person to this.
Perfect example of those (parents) who caused the issue, thinking/projecting they are the victim.
 
I would say that if someone is concerned about another person harming them, then the first party is welcome to arm themselves in defence against the second party.

When did the American people start expecting the state to defend them against all risk?

Afraid? Arm yourself. Unwilling to do so? Then why the hell should I care? And we surely shouldn't be using tax payer dollars to coddle your fears by depriving others of their rights.

Put away cowardice, and become an American.
 
Perfect example of those (parents) who caused the issue, thinking/projecting they are the victim.
I don't disagree, but look who must 'deal" with it. The same guys that hand out parking tickets. Does that sound right to anyone?
 
"Patriot act"..."red flag laws".....people eat that shit up thinking it helps them be able to be free to chant howcmuch they hate the country that lets them chant about how they hate the country.
 
I don't disagree, but look who must 'deal" with it. The same guys that hand out parking tickets. Does that sound right to anyone?
I understand to a point. People need to understand all the ramifications they are signing up for. Gravy, and/or look at me work, can lead to death. Know what your signing up for. If a segment scares someone they should pick another line of work.
If I was smart enough to know that at 17, when I wrote a check the American people could cash at any time, anywhere, for any amount, I fail to see the issue.
 
Perfect example of those (parents) who caused the issue, thinking/projecting they are the victim.

I have dealt with this many times. Enabling family just brings it on themselves. But I understand why it’s hard for them. The most effective approach is to deploy a K9. It don’t matter how crazy, K9 will end it quick. The problem is mental health keeps these people for a couple days and kicks them loose. They go get high and then go home. The family takes them back and after a week the same shit repeats. Vicious cycle caused by meth.
 
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I understand to a point. People need to understand all the ramifications they are signing up for. Gravy, and/or look at me work, can lead to death. Know what your signing up for. If a segment scares someone they should pick another line of work.
If I was smart enough to know that at 17, when I wrote a check the American people could cash at any time, anywhere, for any amount, I fail to see the issue.

The problem is needlessly compounded by poor policy making at the fed, state, local level. They are fucking things up exponentially bad. It’s to a point where nobody wants to do the job because no matter what you do it’s wrong. It’s easy to say get another job. It’s hard to walk away from a career where you have decades invested.
 
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The problem is needlessly compounded by poor policy making at the fed, state, local level. They are fucking things up exponentially bad. It’s to a point where nobody wants to do the job because no matter what you do it’s wrong. It’s easy to say get another job. It’s hard to walk away from a career where you have decades invested.
I get that, but remember its much easier to make changes from the in vs outside. At some point truth & logic has to override, knee jerk and warm brain dead body's filling seats no matter its food chain placement. People high in the chain can be brought down just as easily, as those who follow their B/S policy's.
 
I get that, but remember its much easier to make changes from the in vs outside. At some point truth & logic has to override, knee jerk and warm brain dead body's filling seats no matter its food chain placement. People high in the chain can be brought down just as easily, as those who follow their B/S policy's.

Unless you are at a specific "level" you can't change dick. They don't want you to change anything, they want you to do your narrow focus and shut up about anything that is not in your lane.
 
Unless you are at a specific "level" you can't change dick. They don't want you to change anything, they want you to do your narrow focus and shut up about anything that is not in your lane.
And that is the issue, until the rank & file just say,... NO,... nothing will change, and most likely get worst. Plant the seeds!!!
Playing by your enemy's rules, will never change anything or allow you a win. Laying down & saying there is nothing we can do is why this country is so fucked up. Stand for something, besides the status quo.
 
And that is the issue, until the rank & file just say,... NO,... nothing will change, and most likely get worst. Plant the seeds!!!
Playing by your enemy's rules, will never change anything or allow you a win. Laying down & saying there is nothing we can do is why this country is so fucked up. Stand for something, besides the status quo.

Many police obey orders that by any reasonable standard are absurd, outrageous, and if not clearly unconstitutional, clearly immoral.

So long as a significant majority or even a significant minority of people are willing to enforce orders that are clearly immoral, simply for the benefit of salary, health coverage, a pension, and not to mention the local status, then not much will change.

When a chief of police orders a half-dozen officers to drag the owner of a home away from the property for the benefit of squatters who aren't merely holdover tenants refusing to leave, but are burglars who broke in and changed the locks, it is incumbent on the officers to refuse. I've seen a few instances of small towns where 5 out of 6 officers resigned in protest on one day, leaving the chief and one officer to handle things. I've also seen situations where it was the chief + officers against the local officials, with the chief and 4 of 5 officers leaving in the same day, leaving the municipal authorities groping in the dark for solutions.

People have to be willing to accept the temporary discomfort and anxiety of career disruption to stand up for what is right and proper. The community also has to support people who take these stands.
 
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And that is the issue, until the rank & file just say,... NO,... nothing will change, and most likely get worst. Plant the seeds!!!
Playing by your enemy's rules, will never change anything or allow you a win. Laying down & saying there is nothing we can do is why this country is so fucked up. Stand for something, besides the status quo.
It extends into everything, business or .gov. The higher ups (in most cases) are going to call the shots, and your input has zero value. Not really an enemy thing, but the way everything is structured. Don't like it they have others to replace you.

I am in just a different spot in my travel on the blue marble, been on it long enough I can take early retirement. I will be just fine, but someone in their 30's it is very different.

It seems to me it was not always this way. Something has changed. My age is leaving and the 40 somethings are taking over, and they seem to do things a bit differently with less input from people under them.
 
The problem with change from within is the leadership in an agency is political. The higher your rank the more political you are, the more your values are in line with the ruling class. Just say no will result in your prompt termination and replacement.

In bigger agencies the concept of we’re a family originates and is maintained by line staff. Management is not a part of it. Many times you’ll see an agency circle the wagons around an individual or individuals involved in a particular incident. Some people will look at it as cops protecting their own, but in reality they are protecting one guy, a holy cow, who’s destined for greatness within the agency. Fact is law enforcement is no different than any big company. You have some good people, some bad people, a bunch of back stabbers, democraps, and crazies.
 
The problem with change from within is the leadership in an agency is political. The higher your rank the more political you are, the more your values are in line with the ruling class. Just say no will result in your prompt termination and replacement.

In bigger agencies the concept of we’re a family originates and is maintained by line staff. Management is not a part of it. Many times you’ll see an agency circle the wagons around an individual or individuals involved in a particular incident. Some people will look at it as cops protecting their own, but in reality they are protecting one guy, a holy cow, who’s destined for greatness within the agency. Fact is law enforcement is no different than any big company. You have some good people, some bad people, a bunch of back stabbers, democraps, and crazies.
The root reason the US is like it is, most people putting their wallet and look at me shit, before anything else.
 
The concept is not inherently unconstitutional but most of the laws, as currently written, are unconstitutional.

The ability of any random person to drag somebody into a proceeding, with a pre-hearing termination of rights,

The basic concept is not unsound,
Sows ewes is a walking condomdrum then(I think I used the right word)?According to you, the idea is constitutional, yet the way it is written is I unconstitutional. If this country was formed on ideas and beliefs, your way of thinking may be the wrong direction?

My internal gps keeps screaming “recalculating” as I read that to myself.

How in the world is something that attacks a constitutional right ok? Without the constitution being amended, what gives anyone the right to interpret the laws according to their beliefs, or the “states” beliefs? Shouldn’t something that starts with the words “We the People” include all the people when a change is being discussed, instead of just the people that are currently in position to attempt any changes like that? Maybe we could just start adjusting theses things on by term by term basis according to who is in power. All I hear with any of that rambling from any anti 2a group is “fuck the people”.
 
I don't disagree, but look who must 'deal" with it. The same guys that hand out parking tickets. Does that sound right to anyone?

Who, then, *should* deal with it? Who are sufficiently "skilled/capable" of dealing with it? I don't have a problem with LE handling the arrest and detainment of the individual, as long as it's the result of a formal court order where the defense had the right to be present and argue for their client. But, of course, that would interfere with the underlying "confiscation" objective.

I agree it's a PITA for LE, but who else can do it?
 
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Who, then, *should* deal with it? Who are sufficiently "skilled/capable" of dealing with it? I don't have a problem with LE handling the arrest and detainment of the individual, as long as it's the result of a formal court order where the defense had the right to be present and argue for their client. But, of course, that would interfere with the underlying "confiscation" objective.

I agree it's a PITA for LE, but who else can do it?

Well if JFK had not fucked the mental health care system we would have had places where the family could take them.

And yes I know they had their issues, HUGE issues. But at least it was some place. They could have been "fixed".....ok well I doubt it, but it would be better then waiting for someone to PTSD out and start pointing guns at you, or trying to run you over with a 3ton truck.

That is a bit of a cop out answer to me, but I look at the differences between 1960 and today and that is all I have.

I also think our current society is just growing crazy people. We are doing everything we can to make more and more of them. And then eventually they go totally nutz and really bad things happen.

IMHO the old way was not perfect, but it is better then what we have now.
 
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Well if JFK had not fucked the mental health care system we would have had places where the family could take them.

And yes I know they had their issues, HUGE issues. But at least it was some place. They could have been "fixed".....ok well I doubt it, but it would be better then waiting for someone to PTSD out and start pointing guns at you, or trying to run you over with a 3ton truck.

That is a bit of a cop out answer to me, but I look at the differences between 1960 and today and that is all I have.

I also think our current society is just growing crazy people. We are doing everything we can to make more and more of them. And then eventually they go totally nutz and really bad things happen.

IMHO the old way was not perfect, but it is better then what we have now.

Agreed. And the other important thing to remember is that between 1960 and now, the general population of the US has exploded tremendously. Hence, the population of people with mental issues also increases proportionately. Maybe more than proportionately, as you say, due to the lack of treatment facilities and options as well as the change in "parenting" ethics. I recall growing up as a kid watching the whole Geraldo Rivera thing with Willowbrook NY Mental facility where he snuck into the place and caught them with their pants down. He had visited them "officially" in a planned event a week or two beforehand so, of course, they prettied things up. But he then snuck back in a week thereafter when they weren't expecting anyone and was able to film the "real" operation. It wasn't pretty. And it could have been what led to the shutodown of a lot of those facilities shortly after that.

Where I lived in the PRNJ as an adult (for a time) our county had one of the major Psychiatric facilities around. Google "Greystone Park Psychiatric Hospital," (mailing address is Morris Plains, NJ). It was a huge "university like" campus. You could drive through it. The main building was the grey stoned fortress like castle building with parapets, etc. (would remind you of the Attica Correctional Facility in NY). I understand it's still operating as a Psychiatric hospital, but perhaps not at its original capacity.. Not sure they could staff it properly at that capacity level.

I think a lot of our problems today are just a function of so many "masses" of people living in this country now clashing with each other and competing for very limited financial/employment and natural resources. Hence the increases in "violence" with whatever weapon is used, etc., etc., if any. The problem being, the media get to run with that and call it "Gun Violence" and campain for more gun control. :mad: But I digress. My original point being, if the parents were not going to get the child committed and would leave it up to the State, then the only people I think capable of effecting a proper detainment and transfer to the mental facility is LE. It sucks for them that they have to do it, but who else can?
 
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Should education requirements and community culture dictate who gets to dictate the use of red flag laws?

Some of the Fudds out there can’t find their ass with both hands.


Yeah, I see we are off in the weeds trying to convince the local Biden supporters that we have rights. This is pointless. If you watch anything leftists do, they have absolutely no interest in passing laws that discourage criminal behavior with firearms. They support criminals in all ways, at no time will a leftist/democrat/socialist/communist or whatever you brand them EVER demand a criminal be held responsible for their actions. Unless the "criminal" is someone who disagrees with their warped doctrine or runs for office against one of their deranged political hacks.


Second point. Why in the ever loving fuck would Bender or any other Biden Ball Gargler on the face of the fucking earth assume education or community culture ( whatever the fuck that is) have anything to do with intelligence, the ability to think, reason or process thought or the ability to apply laws fairly? American DOJ minions are proving that is not the case on a daily basis.
 
Agreed. And the other important thing to remember is that between 1960 and now, the general population of the US has expanded tremendously. Hence, the population of people with mental issues also increases proportionately. Maybe more than proportionately, as you say, due to the lack of treatment facilities and options as well as the change in "parenting" ethics. I recall growing up as a kid watching the whole Geraldo Rivera thing with Willowbrook NY Mental facility where he snuck into the place and caught them with their pants down. He had visited them "officially" in a planned event a week or two beforehand so, of course, they prettied things up. But he then snuck back in a week thereafter when they weren't expecting anyone and was able to film the "real" operation. It wasn't pretty. And it could have been what led to the shutodown of a lot of those facilities shortly after that.

Where I lived in the PRNJ as an adult (for a time) our county had one of the major Psychiatric facilities around. Google "Greystone Park Psychiatric Hospital," (mailing address is Morris Plains, NJ). It was a huge "university like" campus. You could drive through it. The main building was the grey stoned fortress like castle building with parapets, etc. (would remind you of the Attica Correctional Facility in NY). I understand it's still operating as a Psychiatric hospital, but perhaps not at its original capacity.. Not sure they could staff it properly at that capacity level.

I think a lot of our problems today are just a function of so many "masses" of people living in this country now clashing with each other and competing for very limited financial/employment and natural resources. Hence the increases in "violence" with whatever weapon is used, etc., etc., if any. The problem being, the media get to run with that and call it "Gun Violence" and campain for more gun control. :mad: But I digress. My original point being, if the parents were not going to get the child committed and would leave it up to the State, then the only people I think capable of effecting a proper detainment and transfer to the mental facility is LE. It sucks for them that they have to do it, but who else can?

Mental health is directly proportional to drug use. Since the 60’s drug use, legal and illegal, has expanded exponentially. These drugs screwed up people’s brains and that’s why we’re having all these problems. We went from a tight knit society to a free for all. Now we have 50,000 homeless in Los Angeles alone. Other major cities are no different. It’s only going to get worse.
 
Mental health is directly proportional to drug use. Since the 60’s drug use, legal and illegal, has expanded exponentially. These drugs screwed up people’s brains and that’s why we’re having all these problems. We went from a tight knit society to a free for all. Now we have 50,000 homeless in Los Angeles alone. Other major cities are no different. It’s only going to get worse.

Which drugs do you think are the "main culprits?" The Psychotropics, perhaps? Or the anti-psychotics? Or just basic things like Canabis, LSD, Psilocybin and the like?
 
I think it is over simplistic to say, drugs did it, or the destruction on the "nuclear family" or.......... I think it is a combo of a bunch of things.

I do however think the thing that greased the tracks is this alphabet of sexuality and genders, this has made everything "normal". And it makes people think, well if that 300lb dude with the five o clock shadow with DDDD fake titties and enough makeup to make Tammy Faye Baker look Amish (those damn amish) then me liking to screw frogs is just fine.....ahh no.

Why is everything normal, it is not and solid proof is these people have a higher rate of killing both themselves as well as others, that defines crazy.
Like I said I don't have a good answer, but this ain't working, no harm in putting the car in reverse getting to a better point and then looking for another road to go down.
 
Many police obey orders that by any reasonable standard are absurd, outrageous, and if not clearly unconstitutional, clearly immoral.

So long as a significant majority or even a significant minority of people are willing to enforce orders that are clearly immoral, simply for the benefit of salary, health coverage, a pension, and not to mention the local status, then not much will change.

When a chief of police orders a half-dozen officers to drag the owner of a home away from the property for the benefit of squatters who aren't merely holdover tenants refusing to leave, but are burglars who broke in and changed the locks, it is incumbent on the officers to refuse. I've seen a few instances of small towns where 5 out of 6 officers resigned in protest on one day, leaving the chief and one officer to handle things. I've also seen situations where it was the chief + officers against the local officials, with the chief and 4 of 5 officers leaving in the same day, leaving the municipal authorities groping in the dark for solutions.

People have to be willing to accept the temporary discomfort and anxiety of career disruption to stand up for what is right and proper. The community also has to support people who take these stands.
exactly. have said it before. hitler did not kill 20 mil people. stalin did not kill 50 mil people. they had willing and often enthused help at all levels.
it gets into a personality,benefit,control issue. oradaur,my lai,babi yar,wounded knee,hue all show the point. all had on site perps usually "following orders" or wishes from above. we see that with increasing frequency here at all "enforcement" levels. it is the corruption of unaccountable power at any level.