reloading for the real deal

[gumball]

ok guys
I got a question what is the deal with not being able to reload ammo for taking the real deal law enforcement sniper shot why do we have to shoot factory ammo? this just frustrates me to no end is there any case law on this subject our reloaded rounds are more accurate and cheaper on the departments to buy maybe lowlight can help me out here and explain it to me because i just dont get it thanks

 

[Guest]

Re: reloading for the real deal

One word,..... Liability

 

[gumball]

Re: reloading for the real deal

we are still liable when we take the shot no matter the ammo yea we put the cross hairs on his head and we intended to shoot them to save a life

 

[gumball]

Re: reloading for the real deal

our rifle gets taken data books the whole nine yards were we justified all the court bullshit what the hell difference does a round make

 

[desertHK]

Re: reloading for the real deal

Too many lawyers. No department is going to accept the major liability for that.

 

[jasonk]

Re: reloading for the real deal

I'd think it's not liability for the bad guy as much as what happens when the round doesn't go off due to a poor reload or something and the bad guy hurts more innocents....then you have major liability.

 

[dj70]

Re: reloading for the real deal

If I were in charge of you guys, you can bet your asses that a armorer would be loading your ammo and you guys would be right next to him helping.
Thanks for your service, best of luck to all.

 

[dmg308]

Re: reloading for the real deal

Same reason you dont want reloads in your carry gun.Some POS lawyer will challenge that you created extra deadly uber killer rounds that are outside the accepted industry standards.Total crap but just the way it is.

 

[Doc Holiday13]

Re: reloading for the real deal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same reason you dont want reloads in your carry gun.Some POS lawyer will challenge that you created extra deadly uber killer rounds that are outside the accepted industry standards.Total crap but just the way it is. </div></div>

That a crock argument right there. I carry super +P's and don't think twice about it. If you ever did get taken to court, the ammo you used wouldn't be what you have to worry about

 

[gumball]

Re: reloading for the real deal

yea i know but if you will check here on the threads look at all the factory ammo that had squib loads and i know all of you guys as well as myself are very anal when we reload i have never had a squib knock on wood but is there any case law to back this up and dmg you are right as well on the lawyers but i can load a 180 accubond as well as black hills whats the difference

 

[Guest]

Re: reloading for the real deal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocHoliday13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same reason you dont want reloads in your carry gun.Some POS lawyer will challenge that you created extra deadly uber killer rounds that are outside the accepted industry standards.Total crap but just the way it is. </div></div>

That a crock argument right there. I carry super +P's and don't think twice about it. If you ever did get taken to court, the ammo you used wouldn't be what you have to worry about </div></div>

As one that went the distance in Fl years ago, every part of your being an fiber is called into question, including the ammo you used.

 

[leagle2]

Re: reloading for the real deal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same reason you dont want reloads in your carry gun.Some POS lawyer will challenge that you created extra deadly uber killer rounds that are outside the accepted industry standards.Total crap but just the way it is.</div></div>

In the last several years this subject has come up several times and someone will always chime in with this same statement. Can anyone point me to one reported case where this argument formed the basis of a lawsuit against a police shooter, his department or municipality/state? If there is a liability issue it would be my guess that it would arise from a pass through that kills or injures John Q. Goodguy. I expect that the prohibition comes more from an administration that doesn't trust a "home rolled" to go "bang" every time than from a blatant fear of some "POS" lawyer' argument.(and if it does,they need to hire counsel with some balls who won't just roll over, take their hourly fee and yell "Settle"...and while they are at it the administration ought to grow a set of their own).

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: reloading for the real deal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocHoliday13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same reason you dont want reloads in your carry gun.Some POS lawyer will challenge that you created extra deadly uber killer rounds that are outside the accepted industry standards.Total crap but just the way it is. </div></div>

That a crock argument right there. I carry super +P's and don't think twice about it. If you ever did get taken to court, the ammo you used wouldn't be what you have to worry about </div></div>

As one that went the distance in Fl years ago, every part of your being an fiber is called into question, including the ammo you used. </div></div>

+1...

The lawsuits I'm thinking of were in the mid 1980s. They were very high level and very visable at the time. Several persons (LEO included) involved in shootings were carrying handloads. The lawyers chewed them up and said they intended to do more than usual damage when the perp was shot.

If your department doesn't feel like researching it, do what you want to do. It's your butt on the line. No words said here will convience you if you have already made up your mind.

Good luck.

nashlaw... David have you looked this up?

 

[johngfoster]

Re: reloading for the real deal

I'm told that our PD here in Billings has wised up to the fact that different guns like different ammo and have tested the individual rifles as to their ammo preferences. Each gun is then assigned a particular ammo that it shoots best and the ammo is kept with the gun in the case. That way if another LEO happens to need someone else's rifle, it already has the matched ammo with it.

 

[gumball]

Re: reloading for the real deal

thanks for the info guys keep it coming with the ammo shortage and it becoming harder and harder to find and when you do find it its outragiously expensive my team is on a fixed income so to say lol

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: reloading for the real deal

Ok, in the effort to support the PD's and whatnot in this endeavor, how about this conceptual tangent:

If one really wants to do a good job, and protect the innocent, and remove the threat from whatever source, and still keep their job, and prevent the escalation of a situation, then they should do the best that they can.

If that 'best' is deemed through the use of handloading, then why not have at it. Especially in a PD scenario, we're talking about competent individuals, with reliability and professionalism as a 'goal', right? So go do their thing.

And if/(God forbid)when their actions/procedures are called out, then have a STATISTICIAN on the defensive team.

(No, I aren't one, and don't play one on T.V.)

But my point of this diatribe is, if some asshat wants to challenge something, and shift the blame of the situation from his 'exemplary example of human progression' to LE's 'overexuberant maelstrom of authority' then do battle numerically.


Short version:
On average, how many factory round failures to fire?
How many of your handloads do same?
What accuracy average is expected with factory ammo?
What accuracy average is expected with your ammo?
What is the reliability/confidence level of factory ammo performance....

blah blah blah.

The shorter point of this is, with the addition of LOGIC and reality to a situation, why a)should the operator (and) b)does the operator
HAVE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES OR THEIR ACTIONS?

If the asshat's client's [ancestor] didn't do what they did/were doing, then the LE's wouldn't have been called there to begin with.

 

[Short Round]

Re: reloading for the real deal

OK, I'm not a sniper, designated marksman, or police marksman. I'm just a police officer and shooting enthusiast.

Police sniping shots are a lot shorter than military shots. The factory ammo is accurate enough to do the job.

If a factory setup won't shoot a federal GMM or black hills, or cor bon, or remington or whatever match cartrige into around one moa or less then you need to go back to the drawing board.

Don't get me wrong, I love reloading and shooting but for work it really is simpler to keep things simple. How's that for intellectual?

Of course this is my opinion and everybody has there own. Just remember that everyone who has been trained to some standard and thinks they're an expert, may not know that they don't know everything. Even though they're cocky as hell and think they know it all. I've been there myself especially on reloading. I'm learning tons all the time. The older I get the more I realize I could stand some more learning.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: reloading for the real deal

I'm still not sure I see why there is so much concern over police "overexuberance". If the call is made for the marksman/sniper to take the shot, then the decision has already been made to kill, not to wound. At this point we should shift our thinking more along the lines of an ethical hunter and try to make as "clean" and solid a kill as possible. Dead is dead. You don't have degrees of deadness. Now if you are concerned about overpenetration, or round failure/DGB (doesn't go boom), then that is a whole different topic. What's the problem here?

 

[CoryT]

Re: reloading for the real deal

There are several reasons NOT to use handloads. Unless each officer bought his own components and did his own loading, the agency would need an FFL for manufactuer of ammunition. It is a violation of Federal law to resell handloads, or to load ammo for another without an FFL, and no, agancies are not exempt. If you got the FFL you'd need insurance in the event that someone was injured while using the ammo you made. That in itself would be enough to raise the cost to beyond what factory loads would cost.

On the legal side, think defensability and standards of practice. Remember the jury will not be composed of shooters and handloaders. Any argument you try to make about ammo you made in your kitchen being better than ammo produced by peofessionals in multi-million dollar factories will just not fly. Remember, it's not about being right, it's about the perception you can generate in the minds of the jury. If you can't point to dozens of major agencies that use handloaded ammo, then you also have a standard of practice problem.

If the differance between a handload and a factory load would result in a bad outcome, I'd have to say the decision to take the shot was not well thought out.

Now, if guys want to roll their own for practice ammo, craft a load that closely matches the factory issue stuff and have at it. Shoot factory for qualification, documenting any variation between the loads, and you should be fine. Get the city attorny to sign off of course.

 

[Guest]

Re: reloading for the real deal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Remember, it's not about being right, it's about the perception you can generate in the minds of the jury. </div></div>

That says it all, right there. You can be right as rain, but those 12 may not cling to your train of thought. Once you drop the scumbag, the real fight is about to get started, an you better be up for round two,..... 200%.

 

[gumball]

Re: reloading for the real deal

thanks cory
and is your jurys are like the ones that ive been in front of you never know what you are going to get out of them but a very good point that i have not thought of

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: reloading for the real deal

Now, then, folks; consider being in the dock for a hunting accident, and needing to respond to the same sorts of legal crticism about your using handloads for the shot that hit the innocent bystander.

The very same arguments which support the overwhelming preference for factory ammo in an LE tactical situation will also support the same practice for hunting.

It's not about what happens when things go right. It's about what happens when they don't.

Greg

 

[Clark]

Re: reloading for the real deal

Greg,
I have been banned from Glocktalk for arguing this issue.
I have seen it on many forums with lawyers.
I have really been there and done that.

But I have never heard that hunting ammo angle before.
Clark

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: reloading for the real deal

Well, I think folks are getting caught looking in a single direction, when a broader outlook may be more useful. I think it's a valid consideration, though. If we aren't thinking about it, I'm certain there are litigators just rubbing their hands together and waiting for the right opportunity. Never underestimate the greed and imagination of a hungry lawyer...

 

[BruceN]

Re: reloading for the real deal

I'm pretty sure that if you accidentally shoot someone while hunting, you're gonna get screwed no matter what ammo you shot 'em with. I'm just sayin'...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: reloading for the real deal

An experinced litigator is going to be milking every aspect of an incident to wring out every dollar possible. It would be an issue.