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Removing expander/decapping rod?

Rmdashrf

Private
Minuteman
Jul 5, 2018
62
23
31
Foster City, California
Looking for some advice and recommendations. I'm thinking of removing the expander and decapping rod from my RCBS Gold Metal FL Bushing die for the 6.5 CM.

Couple of questions:

  1. Will this turn one process into three (deprime, FL Size, and expander mandrel)?
  2. What improvements have people seen from doing this?
  3. What decapping & mandrel die would you recommend?
Cheers!
 
I use hornady universal decap die, it really cheap. Check out 21st century expanders mandrel that u can choose your desires neck tension.
 
1) Yes

2) a) Option to clean primer pockets with the rest of the case (if you decap then clean; accuracy benefit unnoticed by anybody but benchresters I’d say)
b) Reduced runout - most agree that ball expanders induce more neck/bullet runout than top-down expanders
c) More control of neck tension - you can select a mandrel to dial in your desired neck tension (most prefer 0.001-0.003”, turning mandrels at 0.002” are popular)

3) I’ve been content with my Lee Decapping Die, although I think I had to reduce the pin diameter to get through Lapua SRP flash holes (hand drill and sandpaper, took 5 mins). Buy an extra pin, you don’t want your whole session shut down by a broken one. I think 21st Century offers the cheapest expander mandrel die setup, and they offer TiN mandrels that let you skip the neck lube (though they’ll tell you it’s still recommended). Sinclair is another value option. K&M is the gold standard I think (could be wrong), but pricey; I think the main advantage they offer is custom mandrels to fine-tune the tension.
 
Sorry, I said 21st Century was cheapest, but I didn’t mean to say it’s a low-quality product. I’ve got their black nitride turning mandrel in my press right now, and have no desire to change. They also offer custom mandrels, but I read awhile back that you can’t get them with the nitride coating, and 0.002-3” tension from their turning mandrel is perfect for me anyway.
 
Just checked the 21st Century's website. It looks like there is one selection for the Black Nitride Expander Mandrel.

  1. Would the mandrel be one standard size and my neck tension is still adjusted by the bushing only as before?

I hope this is the case as I don't want to complicate the process more than it needs to be 🤣

  1. Is it recommended to get the Expander Die Body with the ring?
I appreciate the advice!



 
I use a lee universal dee capping die.

My Redding dies came with an adapter that replaces the expander ball which allows you to size and de-cap in the same step.

Can't help with the mandrel, haven't gone down that rabbit hole yet.
 
Couple of questions:

  1. Will this turn one process into three (deprime, FL Size, and expander mandrel)?
  2. What improvements have people seen from doing this?
  3. What decapping & mandrel die would you recommend?
Cheers!
1. you can select an appropriately sized bushing that leaves it the size you want straight out of the die without having to run over an additional expander if you didn’t want to.
2. depends on what you had going on before as to whether this will be an improvement or not. You can make most everything shoot well if you compensate for the variable I’m load development.
3. The lee is a great decapper until you get to small flash hole brass which requires a smaller pin which is where I use the Redding. Mandrels are 21st, Sinclair and pma that are all interchangeable with one another.
 
I've just gotten better results with these as different processes. Newly fired brass is handled in this order:
  1. Decapped (Wilson universal decapping die)
  2. Cleaned (Frankford wet tumbler)
  3. Annealed (AMP)
  4. FL Sized (Redding type S die with bushing)
  5. Mandrel (Wilson mandrel die)
  6. Cleaned (Frankford wet tumbler to remove lube)
... and I'm ready to load. I find the combination of bushing die (shrink) and mandrel (expand) works well and gives me extremely consistent neck tension. Caveat being ... I only load for precision calibers ... if I was loading for "volume" (like .223 or other), I'd probably do the decap/size/expand in the same step ... but that's not how I roll. Side note ... annealing becomes especially important the more you manipulate (shrink and expand) the neck of your brass.
 
I'd say it turns it into 2 steps.

1. Tumble after range
2. Anneal
3. Lube
4. Size and decap (no expander)
5. Tumble
6. Mandrel
7. Trim/chamfer
8. Prime
9. Charge
10. Seat
 
Just checked the 21st Century's website. It looks like there is one selection for the Black Nitride Expander Mandrel.

  1. Would the mandrel be one standard size and my neck tension is still adjusted by the bushing only as before?

I hope this is the case as I don't want to complicate the process more than it needs to be 🤣

  1. Is it recommended to get the Expander Die Body with the ring?
I appreciate the advice!



You want the turning arbor, not the expander mandrel. It’s a little confusing, but the turning arbor gives 0.002” neck tension, so that’s what most folks use who go the mandrel route. The Expander Die Body is what you mount the mandrel in, and it’s nice because it’s almost universal, you just swap the mandrel inside to go to a different caliber. The have an Extended one for really tall cases.

Other folks are right that there are options to make it a 2-step process; some dies will let you remove the expander ball from the decapping spindle (Forster maybe?), so you FL size and decap in one step, then mandrel in the next. This is definitely a time saver, but I’ll also say that I’ve occasionally appreciated the ability to decap and nothing else, like when I’m taking post-firing headspace measurements to set shoulder bump. Sometimes the primer can sit a bit proud and throw off this measurement, although I’ll say I’ve not seen that.

As @spife7980 noted, there are also bushing-style sizing dies that only squeeze the neck down a specific amount, leaving it at the desired tension. Forster (maybe others) offers a honing service on their FL sizing dies that accomplishes the same. These options do have the drawback of being brass-specific, since your tension is set by the bushing size and the neck wall thickness, which varies between mfg’s. It also pushes any irregularities into the bullet bearing surface, rather than leaving them on the outside of the neck where they have theoretically less impact on accuracy; however, I’m not convinced that this concern actually has much of an effect, but it’s not like I’ve tested it.

One last comment here, some have talked about cleaning after sizing and before seating bullets; there’s a thread on here discussing bullets cold-welding to the case neck if left alone too long without lube in the neck, so if you’re gonna leave ammo sitting a long time, you might check out that thread.
 
You want the turning arbor, not the expander mandrel. It’s a little confusing, but the turning arbor gives 0.002” neck tension, so that’s what most folks use who go the mandrel route. The Expander Die Body is what you mount the mandrel in, and it’s nice because it’s almost universal, you just swap the mandrel inside to go to a different caliber. The have an Extended one for really tall cases.

Other folks are right that there are options to make it a 2-step process; some dies will let you remove the expander ball from the decapping spindle (Forster maybe?), so you FL size and decap in one step, then mandrel in the next. This is definitely a time saver, but I’ll also say that I’ve occasionally appreciated the ability to decap and nothing else, like when I’m taking post-firing headspace measurements to set shoulder bump. Sometimes the primer can sit a bit proud and throw off this measurement, although I’ll say I’ve not seen that.

As @spife7980 noted, there are also bushing-style sizing dies that only squeeze the neck down a specific amount, leaving it at the desired tension. Forster (maybe others) offers a honing service on their FL sizing dies that accomplishes the same. These options do have the drawback of being brass-specific, since your tension is set by the bushing size and the neck wall thickness, which varies between mfg’s. It also pushes any irregularities into the bullet bearing surface, rather than leaving them on the outside of the neck where they have theoretically less impact on accuracy; however, I’m not convinced that this concern actually has much of an effect, but it’s not like I’ve tested it.

One last comment here, some have talked about cleaning after sizing and before seating bullets; there’s a thread on here discussing bullets cold-welding to the case neck if left alone too long without lube in the neck, so if you’re gonna leave ammo sitting a long time, you might check out that thread.
Thank you for the heads up on the Turning Arbor. Having .002 of neck tension is what I'm looking for.
 
Looking for some advice and recommendations. I'm thinking of removing the expander and decapping rod from my RCBS Gold Metal FL Bushing die for the 6.5 CM.

Couple of questions:

  1. Will this turn one process into three (deprime, FL Size, and expander mandrel)?
  2. What improvements have people seen from doing this?
  3. What decapping & mandrel die would you recommend?
Cheers!

Throw the expander ball away lol.

1. Yes.
2. Using a mandrel after first FL sizing cut my SD's in half.
3. Lee Universal Decapper (likely the best $10 you'll spend on reloading stuff). I use the Sinclair mandrel and die.
 
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