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Gunsmithing removing fluting tool marks?...Upated

veezer

veezer

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Minuteman
Feb 6, 2007
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Hazard, Kentucky
I just got a new barrel from Lilja that has fluting on it. At the muzzle end of the fluting there are tool marks but not at the chamber end. I called them and they said that this is normal "tool chatter" where the machining started. I asked him how to remove it and he didnt give me any ideas. Anyone have a good way to remove them? Is this normal?
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I've had a few fluted barrels, but never had chatter marks.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

Here is what it looks like:

IMG_2519small.jpg
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

You recieved a fluted barrel blank. With such, it is not a complete finished barrel. It makes no sense to polish it or complete any surface treatement until your barrel is chambered fitted and finished. When completed you won't see the marks if fitting and finishing is done by a good smith.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I just wondered why one end of the fluting is perfect and the other end looks like crap. I planned on blasting and duracoating it myself after it gets put together, but from the way it looks, I will have to fork over more money to the guy that builds it to remove those tool marks after I payed someone to flute it. Wont he have to put it back in the lathe and reflute the ends to make it look right?
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

If I received a barrel like that, I'd send it back. That’s poor workmanship on the manufacturer’s part. It chattered because it was loose in the setup. You paid full price, let them get the marks out. I have a fluted Hart barrel here on a .308 I just built, no chatter marks. My fluted Bartlien in .260, no chatter marks, Krieger has been the same on their fluted barrels, no chatter marks.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

^^+1, send it back, their problem, not yours!
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

send it back. you paid for the fluting and it should be done right. who ever said that the smith installing the barrel blank has the responsibility of cleaning up the barrel manufacturer's shitty machine work is high.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: veezer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just wondered why one end of the fluting is perfect and the other end looks like crap. </div></div>

the difference is one side is where they fed into the material with the cutter and the other is where they exited the material. i am guessing the area where they plunged into the barrel is probably the side with the chatter.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

If this barrel came straight from Lilja, I'd try to speak to Dan personally, or at least email him personally, to let him know what kind of work his shop is turning out...and send it back.

In no way am I bashing Dan or his company as he turns out some fine barrels, but I would venture to guess that if he was aware of this it never would have left his shop. Industry reputation doesn't get built on stuff like this...but it sure does get hurt quickly by it.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I have fluted barrels and have had lots of brands barrels supplied already factory fluted i have never seen a barrel that had every flute stuffed up like that it looks like the machine was set incorectly whild feeding the cutter into the work mabe they cut the flutes in multiple cuts and the cutter did not cut into the previous cut to remove the transition.

send it back get them to fix it.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I spoke with Dan today and he said that there isnt much he could do about it and it is quite common. I also talked to my smith and he said about the same thing and that there isnt any good way to fix it. He said that it is hard not to get some chatter. It might have something to do with the fact that it is a 5/16 flute in a button rifled 50 bmg barrel (he said that they are a harder steel).

After I blast it prior to duracoating, hopefully it will disappear.

 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

if I paid the premium money for the lilja barrel and its a 50 cal to boot I would send it back. they could rechuck it and drag the flutes back and 1/8" and clean it up.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

actually the more i look at that pic, i think those look like ruoughing cutter marks not chatter. like the finish tool wasnt fed all the way down the length properly to clean up those marks from the tool that roughed out the majority of the flute. did Dan see this pic?
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually the more i look at that pic, i think those look like ruoughing cutter marks not chatter. like the finish tool wasnt fed all the way down the length properly to clean up those marks from the tool that roughed out the majority of the flute. did Dan see this pic? </div></div>


Bingo, it's not chatter, chatter would look much more random and sharp. That's roughing end mill marks, what you're describing is exactly what it looks like to me, I've cut enough stuff like this to see it many times.

If Lilja won't fix it, then I'd be supremely pissed. Send it back and demand a full refund. Dan Lilja has a great reputation and so do his products, but you don't build a reputation like that by sending out a product with rouging reamer marks on a cosmetic surface.

When you sand blast and coat it the marks won't go away, they will be less noticeable, but they're still going to show.

If all else fails and they won't fix it then a dremel tool with "Craytex" is a great way to clean that out. MSC Direct sells the stuff, it's an abrasive that's in a rubbery polymer. You stick it in the dremel tool and you can use it for everything from light material removal to final finishing before a cotton wheel buffing.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually the more i look at that pic, i think those look like ruoughing cutter marks not chatter. like the finish tool wasnt fed all the way down the length properly to clean up those marks from the tool that roughed out the majority of the flute. did Dan see this pic? </div></div>

Bingo, it's not chatter, chatter would look much more random and sharp. That's roughing end mill marks, what you're describing is exactly what it looks like to me, I've cut enough stuff like this to see it many times.

removal to final finishing before a cotton wheel buffing. </div></div>

Couple of extra toolpaths would have prevented this post!
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually the more i look at that pic, i think those look like ruoughing cutter marks not chatter. like the finish tool wasnt fed all the way down the length properly to clean up those marks from the tool that roughed out the majority of the flute. did Dan see this pic? </div></div>


Bingo, it's not chatter, chatter would look much more random and sharp. That's roughing end mill marks, what you're describing is exactly what it looks like to me, I've cut enough stuff like this to see it many times.</div></div>

i'm no machinist, just a garage hack but i think that is chatter marks left by a convex cutter, not ball end mill. i have fluted barrels with a ball end mill and ramped in and out of the cut with no marks like that. the first one i did had a slightly rough finish on the sides due to insufficient flood coolant evacuating chips and getting re-cut.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I would definitely hold Lilja accountable for their workmanship.
Its not your job to make someone else's work right especially when it comes from a top end barrel maker and the money you had to pay for it. Even though it is just a cosmetic issue it is still the principle of the matter. I will guarantee you that if I received that barrel the issue would be resolved real quick.
This kind of shit pisses me off so much.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm no machinist, just a garage hack but i think that is chatter marks left by a convex cutter, not ball end mill. i have fluted barrels with a ball end mill and ramped in and out of the cut with no marks like that. the first one i did had a slightly rough finish on the sides due to insufficient flood coolant evacuating chips and getting re-cut. </div></div>

Did you use a roughing reamer when you ramped in and out of the cut? The serrated looking flutes look like what did it.

0189816-11.jpg


Granted that picture is a standard REM not a ball, but you get the idea.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

It was probably fluted on a horizontal mill not a vertical mill so I doubt that a roughing end mill was used. The horizontal mill uses cutters that look something like this.(top right image)


116.png
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

Those marks could not be made with that type of cutter in my opinion.
I bet it was done on a vertical mill with some sort of ball-end mill.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

Got an email from them this morning and he said:
"The marks in your image are what we're seeing on all of the fluted .50 barrels. It is just a by product of the infeed of the fluting cutter."

Guess I will just have to live with it.

My gunsmith said that he uses a horizontal mill using a radius cutter and that chatter is a problem when cutting such a large flute in a barrel as hard as the one I bought.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those marks could not be made with that type of cutter in my opinion.
I bet it was done on a vertical mill with some sort of ball-end mill. </div></div>

Dead on. A horizontal cutter leaves marks parallel to the cut.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

well whatever the cause (and i dont think i buy that explanation but...) id say lilja has quality and integrity issues. buyer beware.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm no machinist, just a garage hack but i think that is chatter marks left by a convex cutter, not ball end mill. i have fluted barrels with a ball end mill and ramped in and out of the cut with no marks like that. the first one i did had a slightly rough finish on the sides due to insufficient flood coolant evacuating chips and getting re-cut. </div></div>

Did you use a roughing reamer when you ramped in and out of the cut? The serrated looking flutes look like what did it.

0189816-11.jpg


Granted that picture is a standard REM not a ball, but you get the idea. </div></div>

i didn't bother using a roughing endmill to flute barrels and i don't think i will be using an endmill anymore period. i think a convex cutter on the side of the barrel (if i had a horizontal mill, it would be on the top) is a better way to go about it. you will get better chip evacuation with a convex cutter and you will get a better finish. a full cutter width groove with an endmill doesn't leave the best finish on the walls. most real machinists (again, i'm not one) will also argue that a ball mill has a "zero feed rate" at the very center. i agree with that in theory but in practice, i have found it to be at least partially not true.

by looking at that picture, if they did use a ball endmill they ramped it in and out of the cut. there is no way a roughing endmill would leave those marks. in my opinion, there is no way a ball endmill would leave those marks either as it is ramping in our out of the cut.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm no machinist, just a garage hack but i think that is chatter marks left by a convex cutter, not ball end mill. i have fluted barrels with a ball end mill and ramped in and out of the cut with no marks like that. the first one i did had a slightly rough finish on the sides due to insufficient flood coolant evacuating chips and getting re-cut. </div></div>

Did you use a roughing reamer when you ramped in and out of the cut? The serrated looking flutes look like what did it.

0189816-11.jpg


Granted that picture is a standard REM not a ball, but you get the idea. </div></div>

i didn't bother using a roughing endmill to flute barrels and i don't think i will be using an endmill anymore period. i think a convex cutter on the side of the barrel (if i had a horizontal mill, it would be on the top) is a better way to go about it. you will get better chip evacuation with a convex cutter and you will get a better finish. a full cutter width groove with an endmill doesn't leave the best finish on the walls. most real machinists (again, i'm not one) will also argue that a ball mill has a "zero feed rate" at the very center. i agree with that in theory but in practice, i have found it to be at least partially not true.

by looking at that picture, if they did use a ball endmill they ramped it in and out of the cut. there is no way a roughing endmill would leave those marks. in my opinion, there is no way a ball endmill would leave those marks either as it is ramping in our out of the cut. </div></div>

I don't think they ramped it in/out of the thing, I think they used a terraced roughing pass profile, then finished it with a BEM and didn't run the finish the right depth.

I agree, the best way to do this on a vertical mill is a convex cutter down the size with a flood coolant washing it away.

Bottom line on the whole deal is I don't think after shelling out the kind of money that a 50 cal barrel costs, the OP should be dealing with this issue from a top line custom barrel maker. No questions about it.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I've had a few fluted Lilja barrels and I've never had one that looked like that. If it were me and they wouldnt fix it, thats the LAST barrel I'd get from Lilja. In fact, your barrel may discourage me from ordering from Lilja again because it takes so long to get a barrel then have one that looks like crap. It doesnt make much difference that its a 50 cal barrel, if its harder you feed slower. The feed was too fast or the set up was loose. They could stone it out at the very least.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i'm no machinist, just a garage hack but i think that is chatter marks left by a convex cutter, not ball end mill. i have fluted barrels with a ball end mill and ramped in and out of the cut with no marks like that. the first one i did had a slightly rough finish on the sides due to insufficient flood coolant evacuating chips and getting re-cut. </div></div>

Did you use a roughing reamer when you ramped in and out of the cut? The serrated looking flutes look like what did it.

0189816-11.jpg


Granted that picture is a standard REM not a ball, but you get the idea. </div></div>

i didn't bother using a roughing endmill to flute barrels and i don't think i will be using an endmill anymore period. i think a convex cutter on the side of the barrel (if i had a horizontal mill, it would be on the top) is a better way to go about it. you will get better chip evacuation with a convex cutter and you will get a better finish. a full cutter width groove with an endmill doesn't leave the best finish on the walls. most real machinists (again, i'm not one) will also argue that a ball mill has a "zero feed rate" at the very center. i agree with that in theory but in practice, i have found it to be at least partially not true.

by looking at that picture, if they did use a ball endmill they ramped it in and out of the cut. there is no way a roughing endmill would leave those marks. in my opinion, there is no way a ball endmill would leave those marks either as it is ramping in our out of the cut. </div></div>

I don't think they ramped it in/out of the thing, I think they used a terraced roughing pass profile, then finished it with a BEM and didn't run the finish the right depth.

I agree, the best way to do this on a vertical mill is a convex cutter down the size with a flood coolant washing it away.

Bottom line on the whole deal is I don't think after shelling out the kind of money that a 50 cal barrel costs, the OP should be dealing with this issue from a top line custom barrel maker. No questions about it.

</div></div>

if they ran a terraced roughing profile they would have had to ramp in and out the finish profile. they would have also had to ramp or plunge into the roughing cuts somewhere. ramping it in at the end would make the most sense, even on the roughing pass. the marks just don't look like they were from a bem to me. definatly not a square em because there would be a flat bottom of the groove.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I think it looks fine, and would install it on my rifle. However it's not my rifle, so if it bothers you I'd do whatever it takes to make you happy. I'm not slamming anyone/thing here, just saying... WOW this is alot of discussion for one barrel!
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

Another Prime example why I will never buy another Lilja product. Its always someone or something else's fault why you didnt get what you should have!!

I figured Dan would come up with some reason it couldnt be fixed, Just like a barrel I got from him. Ive got a fluted Brux sittin right here and it looks flawless.

I would send it back and if Lilja dont give you your money back, Id call the credit card company and let them get it for you.

I believe Lawton makes .50 cal barrels too.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

Here's is a idea. How about you get the flutes filled with rubber? I just happen to know someone who does this. One of my co-workers had this done and it looks sharp!!! Plus it may have some advantages.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's is a idea. How about you get the flutes filled with rubber? I just happen to know someone who does this. One of my co-workers had this done and it looks sharp!!! Plus it may have some advantages. </div></div>

So much for my reply of bondo to fill em back up.....Sorry couldn't resist. I would be pissed too. Good luck and good dremelling.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

Are the deep parts of the tooling marks even with the rest of the flute? If so shouldn't this be a relatively easy fix?
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are the deep parts of the tooling marks even with the rest of the flute? If so shouldn't this be a relatively easy fix? </div></div>
Scout, we are trying to over-engineer this and you stroll along with a simple solution....grrrrr!
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I ordered some of the rubber abrasive dremel tools. They should be in by Friday. I will post some pics if I can get it to look right.

Since Dan did not offer to fix it even after I asked him twice, I think this will be my one and only barrel I ever buy from them. I'm sure if my name was US Gov't, those flutes would be perfect. When I call McMillan to get my action, I am going to ask them if the barrels they get from Lilja have the same problem.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

That doesnt suprise me one bit, that he didnt even offer to fix it. And that BS about a different material on the .50 barrels causing the fluting to look like that, then they shouldnt offer to do it if it doesnt look right. Granted its a small imperfection, but for the $500 or 600 for that barrel. it damn better look right..
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

I bought some of the dremel rubber polishing cylinders and turns out they were too fine to remove the marks, so I bought some of the Cratex medium and coarse tools from Brownells(25 per pack instead of 100 in the link above). The coarse ones were just perfect to get the tool marks out and the medium were perfect for polishing it up. It looks alot better now.

It's a shame though that I had to go through all this when he could have fixed it at the shop before he sent it to me.

barrel1.jpg


barrel2.jpg
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

looks great now... Howit should look before it left the shop. Glad you managed to fix it up right, I won't be buying a barrel from them as I had planned. Brux or Shilen will continue to get my business.
 
Re: removing fluting tool marks?

You should email Dan Lilja and tell him how to fix his own barrels!!

Looks alot better now. Enojoy that .50.
 
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