Rifle Scopes Replace a S&B 3-20 US, what to do?

[Vargmat]

About a year ago, I convinced a friend of mine to get a Schmidt & Bender PM2 3-20 Ultra Short. Which I feel is one of the best scopes out there. I have been a Schmidt fan for years and while my 5-25x56 is my favourite, I will say that, if the 3-20 US with MSR was available at the time when I got my 5-25, then my choice would also land on the US.
Anyhow, this is not about me, its about my friend. And to cut to the chase, he is not super happy with the scope. He thinks that the eyebox is small and would like more magnification, which I think is a tough criteria to meet.

Any suggestions? It has to be MIL/MIL (Reticle / adjustment). Lower end magnification is not to critical, he has hunting guns for those ranges. Max magnification should be atleast x25.

What is the eyebox like on the Nightforce ATACR 7-35x?
Is the eyebox better on a PM2 highpower 3-27x than the 3-20x?
I have been behind Minox 5-25x and find the difference between it and my S&B to be so minute that it is hard to tell. Any more suggestions?

 

[TheGerman]

ATACR 7-35 eyebox is actually pretty big, even at 35x. I thought for sure that you'd have to literally have your face in the exact spot to see through it at 35x, instead, its about how every other optic is at whatever magnification while at 35x.

 

[Gilly]

I don’t know that I can give you direct comparison as the only 3-20 ultra short I’ve handled was not mounted on a rifle so can’t say how eye box compares to my others. I feel like my 5-25 pm2 is pretty forgiving eye box as was my former Kahles 624i both are better than gen 2 razor 3-18 that I had, can’t say if the 4.5-27 suffers from the same tight eye box. If he wants to stay s&b and it’s in the budget the 3-27 hi power is just awesome! In my mind it’s the best scope I’ve owned or handled in any capacity for that matter. I can’t say eye box is better or worse as it hasn’t stood out to me either way which is good I suppose. Glass is top notch maybe its me but I would swear it is more clear and/or crisp than my 5-25 and that’s looking through an h59 reticle. The 34 mil elevation stretches out a long ways before needing to hold. I’ve had it to 2000 yards and running on about 20 power was amazing, you could go to 27 but mirage became an issue. Everything I read said 3-27 wasn’t worth the extra $ over 5-25 including the dealer telling me that, I think they were wrong, I think it is a step up no question.

When I bought my hi power we took it out next to 7-35 atacr and had everything out to 1800 yards+ to glass and I could’ve saved money going 7-35 but didn’t get it for a reason.

Not sure I’ve answered your question but hopefully you can take something away. I’m sure more will chime in on other options.

 

[MACHTECH]

I sold my ultra shorts for pretty much the same reason. That and I couldn't stand the new low profile turrets. I love the old double turn turrets on my 5-25, but couldn't get used to the new low profile ones. There is one scope that I can 100% guarantee that your friend will be pleased with, and that's the Tangent Theta 5-25P.

 

[Glassaholic]

If you're friend wants to save a few bucks have him look for some used Kahles K624i 6-24x56 scopes as those buying the new K525i may be selling some of their K624's at good prices. If he can wait, the new ZCO ZC527 5-27x56 may prove to be stellar in the eye box department but we have to wait about a month to get first reports. Many have been very happy with the NF 7-35, which outside of the used K624i is going to be the cheapest of this bunch, while the best of the best is the TT 5-25 though my guess is it would be fairly close to the ZP5 in eye box since they share similar optical formula's.

You mentioned you've been behind a Minox ZP5 and found it to be similar to your S&B 5-25, I too have a Minox ZP5 and the US 3-20 and I would say the Minox has a more forgiving eye box vs the Ultra Short 3-20, I would not hesitate to recommend the ZP5 5-25 to your friend.

Also, you mentioned you convince your friend to get an Ultra Short, was there a particular reason why he wanted an "ultra short" design as these do tend to struggle more than conventional designs optically. That being said, I just got the new Kahles K318i and it is phenomenal for an ultra short design, though it doesn't meet your friends criteria of wanting more than 20x.

If your friend really wants to stay with a "shorter" scope, the only one's that offer more than 20x ish magnification is the March 3-24x52 and Sig Sauer Tango6 4-24x50, the Sig, at 13.6", is the same length as the US 3-20 but I have no idea how the eye box might compare; however, ILya has one of these and really likes it so you might ask him (@koshkin ). I think the March is an awesome scope, but if your friend does not like the eye box of the US 3-20 then he definitely won't like the eye box on the March - those are some of the trade off's for short designs with high magnification. Oh, there is the new EOTech Vudu Super Short 5-25x50 which is about the tiniest ultra short out there so I'm guessing it is going to struggle in the eye box department.

 

[koshkin]

There are exceptions to this, of course, but if you are looking for the most flexible eye relief, look for a scope with a large objective, especially if you are looking for something high mag. In the case of modern scopes, this means a 56mm objective. Of the commonly available scopes, Kahe\les K624i is at or near the top of the list. Steiner M-series also comes to mind.

If you are OK with a SFP reticle, Hensoldt 6-24x72 is still the best in this regard.

Personally, I feel most of the better 56mm scopes right now are quite good in this regard even the less expensive ones like Delta Stryker and Athlon Cronus.

ILya

 

[Dthomas3523]

I hated the eyebox on my 7-35 atacr, but find the Minox Zp5 exbox to be as good as a Razor Gen II eyebox.

My Schmidt 5-25 isn’t far behind the minox.

 

[Vargmat]

WJM308: There might be something going for the Kahles for him, they are big and bright and he might like them. From what I gather, the gen 3 scopes are good and reliable. While the older scopes have a pretty bad reputation for tracking issues. I would really like to look through the new 525i and 318 for that matter. Also, the 624i has a shallow depth of field, at least that is my experience. I convinced him to get the US and I think part of it was do to the tunneling of the 5-25x56, and good reviews and after he ruled out the 4-16x56 Hensoldt, since he wanted more magnification he ended up with the US. I also feel responsible for talking him down in magnification, as it is my experience that you dont need the Hubble telescope to hit small targets out to a 1000 meters, to me 15x is plenty. But different strokes for different folks, I guess, and he wants more.

Yes, I have been behind a ZP5 tac, and find it to be very close to my PM2, but with a slightly colder color rendering (is that the right term here Ilya?). I would say that as far as eye box goes, my old Razor G2 4.5-27 was slightly more forgiving than my PM2, maybe the Minox is somewhere in between the two and the 3-20 marginally worse. The differences are not huge by any means. And naturally Hensoldt is just head and shoulders above all when it comes to a forgiving eye box, bordering on magical. But their oldschool reticles lets them down, that and the fact that their prices has gone up about 30% here in Sweden since I bought mine 5 years ago.

Thanks for the info and suggestions from everyone, keep them coming.

 

[koshkin]

WJM308: There might be something going for the Kahles for him, they are big and bright and he might like them. From what I gather, the gen 3 scopes are good and reliable. While the older scopes have a pretty bad reputation for tracking issues. I would really like to look through the new 525i and 318 for that matter. Also, the 624i has a shallow depth of field, at least that is my experience. I convinced him to get the US and I think part of it was do to the tunneling of the 5-25x56, and good reviews and after he ruled out the 4-16x56 Hensoldt, since he wanted more magnification he ended up with the US. I also feel responsible for talking him down in magnification, as it is my experience that you dont need the Hubble telescope to hit small targets out to a 1000 meters, to me 15x is plenty. But different strokes for different folks, I guess, and he wants more.

Yes, I have been behind a ZP5 tac, and find it to be very close to my PM2, but with a slightly colder color rendering (is that the right term here Ilya?). I would say that as far as eye box goes, my old Razor G2 4.5-27 was slightly more forgiving than my PM2, maybe the Minox is somewhere in between the two and the 3-20 marginally worse. The differences are not huge by any means. And naturally Hensoldt is just head and shoulders above all when it comes to a forgiving eye box, bordering on magical. But their oldschool reticles lets them down, that and the fact that their prices has gone up about 30% here in Sweden since I bought mine 5 years ago.

Thanks for the info and suggestions from everyone, keep them coming.

Correct. ZP5 color is very neutral. S&B 5-25 is very slightly warm.

K624i does indeed have a shallow depth of field which I do not like very much, but it is quite forgiving to get behind. I have very limtied time with K525 and K318, but I do not think their eye relief is as forgiving as that of K624i.

Have you tried Steiner M-series?

ILya

 

[Vargmat]

Ilya, thank you for your reply. No, I have never been behind a Steiner scope, neither has my friend with the US. I told him about the suggestions posted here and he said that he might start looking at the Hensoldt scopes again. Does anyone of you have any experience with the Zeiss 8-35x60, I know it is more of a high magnification hunting scope with limited vertical adjustment, but is it worth looking in to, for a guy with aged eyes.

Around here, Schmidt & Bender PM2 in various flavours and Minox ZP5 tac will be the most common scopes you see in the competitions. Along with a few Razor G2 and Kahles k624i and some odd Nightforce scopes. The new guys use Vortex Viper PST and maybe some Athlons that is about it. Delta could be catching on but they are not the most used.

 

[Glassaholic]

Also, since you are in Sweden you might want to look into the new Steiner M7Xi 4-28x56, it is supposed to be released in Europe before it's available here in the states, obviously being a brand new scope nobody knows how it will perform but Steiner is a solid company.

Also, you mentioned your friend doesn't care much about the bottom end, there are many good deals to be had with the PMII 5-25 and even though it tunnels, it is still a phenomenal scope so if he has a preference for S&B that might be the way to go, I'm assuming he has looked through and shot with yours?

 

[Vargmat]

Wjm308, I will tell him to take a look at it. Steiner is just something you don't see at every competition or dealer here, so it will not be easy to get behind one. Yeah, he has shot with mine on more than a few occasions now and he has come to the conclusion that he thinks it is a bit nicer, and if he had a MSR reticle in his US I would trade with him in a heartbeat. But I guess that for some time still, the going joke will be that he needs to get better glasses so he can see all the way to the scope.

 

[Glassaholic]

Sounds like the best thing to do is to have him look through some of the different scopes at the comps in order to find what clicks for him, that is usually the best venue to look through a variety of scopes in real world situations. If no scope looks good to him then he probably does need a new prescription

 

[koshkin]

Ilya, thank you for your reply. No, I have never been behind a Steiner scope, neither has my friend with the US. I told him about the suggestions posted here and he said that he might start looking at the Hensoldt scopes again. Does anyone of you have any experience with the Zeiss 8-35x60, I know it is more of a high magnification hunting scope with limited vertical adjustment, but is it worth looking in to, for a guy with aged eyes.

Around here, Schmidt & Bender PM2 in various flavours and Minox ZP5 tac will be the most common scopes you see in the competitions. Along with a few Razor G2 and Kahles k624i and some odd Nightforce scopes. The new guys use Vortex Viper PST and maybe some Athlons that is about it. Delta could be catching on but they are not the most used.

I have never seen Zeiss V8 4.8-30x60 in the field. A brief look at a couple of other V8 scopes left me scratching my head, so I did not look at any more of them. FIguring out if what I saw is an outlier is somewhere on my list of things to do, but I havn't gotten to it yet.

I do not know if you are anywhere near Astrosweden, but if you are go talk to George Dobre about Delta Stryker. He has had very good luck with Delta.

ILya

 

[Vargmat]

Ilya; I know who George is and have talked a lot with him, I must have spent +12k USD at Astrosweden by now. He usually hooks me up with a good deal.

 

[koshkin]

Ilya; I know who George is and have talked a lot with him, I must have spent +12k USD at Astrosweden by now. He usually hooks me up with a good deal.

Talk to him about Delta. He is the one who originally suggested I look at them and he has no financial interest in anything I do. I like what I see so far and for the money Stryker 4.5-30x56 is very difficult to beat. Nice reticle too. If it agrees with your friend's eyes, he will save a bunch of money.

ILya

 

[roamin]

I expected the 7-35's eyebox to be like looking though a pin hole at higher magnification but at 35x the eyebox really does feel like many scopes do at 25x. Nightforce did an amazing job with that scope.