Reproduction 1941 USMC CMP vintage sniper project

[Calfed]

A few years back I grabbed this sporterized high-number Rock Island 1903at an auction with the plan of converting it into a 1903A1 USMC sniper rifle suitable for the CMP vintage sniper matches. My sons and I are planning to shoot in those matches.

It had the C stock and the scope mounting blocks already mounted. . The barrel was pristine and interestingly, is a less common Sedgeley.

I was satisfied this was a decent shooter after my son shot 100 yard groups like this with the Redfield sight that was mounted on the gun.

I mounted an 8x Lyman Targetspot Junior for some long range work and the rifle shot very credibly at 550 yards.

I have run into some issues, however. Turns out that the C stock, a required element of the rifle, had been cut too short to use. The 8x Lyman scope, while legal, is so dim that it is far from optimal for use in the match. The scope blocks were good and properly drilled and tapped, but also were not optimal for the match. Bottom line, it needed some work. After a new stock, new scope blocks, the addition of a few missing parts, I got this...

I also bought an 8X Hilux reproduction Unertl scope, but discovered issues with it and had to send it back ti HiLux for repairs.

 

[6XC243]

Any group is a good group when your shooting with your kids. I also have a leatherwood hilux external adjust unertal wannabe
My suggestion is dont ask more than the equipment is capable of it leads to disapointment. Remember eventhough the 03 is capable of some fancy shot placement this rifle was first chambered ( not for very long and then recalled and rechambered) in 30-30. And the 30-30 was designed for black powder. Shoot well and often.

 

[fdkay]

Any group is a good group when your shooting with your kids. I also have a leatherwood hilux external adjust unertal wannabe
My suggestion is dont ask more than the equipment is capable of it leads to disapointment. Remember eventhough the 03 is capable of some fancy shot placement this rifle was first chambered ( not for very long and then recalled and rechambered) in 30-30. And the 30-30 was designed for black powder. Shoot well and often.

It wasn't chambered for the 30-30, it was chambered in 30'03, a big difference.
The 30-30 is a rimmed cartridge, the 30'03 was a rimless cartridge, slightly longer than the '06, firing a heavier, 220 grain round nose bullet that was in vogue in the late 1800's.

.30-03 Springfield - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Random Guy]

I have used my Springfield 1903 w/ Leatherwood 8x scope at CMP vintage matches since 2012. Its a fun event. The scopes are pretty good but the mounting screws can be a little soft, so that is worth swapping out, but otherwise I haven't done anything to mine over the years. In fact, my 1903 with 8x scope is probably my favorite vintage rifle that I shoot. (along with my M1 Garands)

With match ammo, and if I do my part, it will hold the 10-ring at 300 yards and often at 600 yards too....unless I embarrass myself and somehow pull my first shot at 600 yards and hit the 7-ring, which I did at the CMP Eastern Games in NC (May 2019). Opps...I'll try not to do that again..

 

[kraigWY]

The orginal 1903s were chambered for the 30-03 round, it had a tad longer neck to hold the Krag 30-40 220 RN Bullet. It wasnt that great. Two things changed that ideal, one being the studies of the 7mm Spanish round we encountered during the Spanish American war.

The second, and the one I find humorous was the Soldiers didnt like it. It couldnt compete with the US Krag in the accuracy department and soldiers didnt want to give up their Krags. The Army, in trying to push the '03s , Banned the Krag from the Service Rifle Matches at the Nationals and other matches, simply because the '03 couldnt compete.

In 1906 they decided to go with the 30-06 150 gr bullet and the rest is history. In 1909 the ban on the Krag was lifted because the '03s with the '06 round pulled way ahead in the Accuracy department.

Nobody's (military) bolt gun could compete with the 1903s (including the 'A3) regarding accuracy. We can see that by comparing the scores fired in the CMPs GSM Vintage Rifle Matches. Plus the fact that the '03 action was chosen to be used in the Mann Devices used to test military ammo.

To the OP, looking at the groups posted, it appears your rifle is more then accurate enough to compete in the Vintage Sniper Matches. In those matches the 1941 version fare better then the A4 version because of the glass. But being Army I couldnt build a Marine Rifle. So I went for the 'A4 in my Springfield sniper.

I think its great you partnered up with your son for the match, A perfect father - son activity, you will enjoy it.
I wish my son was closer and interested. No one here wants to get involved so when I go to such matches I end up having to shoot with make up teams. We didnt have the chance to train as team members.

 

[Random Guy]

Apologizes for the digression, but I have a different understanding of history and why the US quickly abandoned the 30-03 and adopted the 30-06.

In a nutshell: In 1905 the Germans shocked the world's great military powers with the introduction of the 8x57mm 'S Patrone" bullet, which used a radical bullet for the era - a pointed/spitzer boat tail bullet at a velocity of around 2340 fps. The US, UK, Russia, Japan and others immediately realized that the lightweight, 198 (Correction: 156 grain) grain spitzer boat-tail provided excellent long range performance and overnight basically outclassed all other major military rounds at that time.

My understanding is that Springfield Armory rather quickly copied the German's spitzer boat-tail bullet design and came out with the 30-06. See Ammo Encyclopedia (2nd Edition), by Michael Bussard, page 518:

"Technically speaking, the 30-01 and 30-03 Springfield cartridges were old news from 1900 on...However, everything changed when the German Army replaced their heavy round nose bullet in the 8.x57mm Mauser with the lighter spitzer "S" type in 1905. A new era had begun and the U.S. could not afford to fall behind. As a result, the Ordnance Bureau sent the engineers back to work to modify the Model 1903 cartridge for a modern, light weight, sptizer bullet."

..and page 531:

"Undoubtedly, the 8x57mm Mauser is the most famous military cartridge in history....Perhaps more important, it was the founding father of a cartridge dynasty which includes such military calibers as the 30-06 Springfield, 7.5x53mm French MAS, 7.65x53mm Belgian Mauser, 7x57mm Mauser, and 7.7x58mm Japanese Ariska. Indeed, the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge of today is a direct decedent of the 8x57mm Mauser cartridge."

...indeed, after 1905 most military's scrambled to update their heavy, round nose bullets with boat tailed (pointed) design. The 30-06 was the first cartridge to be mimicked after Germany’s revolutionary bullet design. That's my understanding of why the 30-03 was only made for 3 years...

 

[Dan M]

Cool rifle. That s/n is damn near end of production... last Rock Island Arsenal serial number was 430742, struck 31 July 1919.

 

[Dougie308]

Much better looking than my '03!

A few years back I grabbed this sporterized high-number Rock Island 1903at an auction with the plan of converting it into a 1903A1 USMC sniper rifle suitable for the CMP vintage sniper matches. My sons and I are planning to shoot in those matches.

It had the C stock and the scope mounting blocks already mounted. . The barrel was pristine and interestingly, is a less common Sedgeley.

I was satisfied this was a decent shooter after my son shot 100 yard groups like this with the Redfield sight that was mounted on the gun.

I mounted an 8x Lyman Targetspot Junior for some long range work and the rifle shot very credibly at 550 yards.

I have run into some issues, however. Turns out that the C stock, a required element of the rifle, had been cut too short to use. The 8x Lyman scope, while legal, is so dim that it is far from optimal for use in the match. The scope blocks were good and properly drilled and tapped, but also were not optimal for the match. Bottom line, it needed some work. After a new stock, new scope blocks, the addition of a few missing parts, I got this...

I also bought an 8X Hilux reproduction Unertl scope, but discovered issues with it and it is currently back at Hilux getting repaired.

 

[cplnorton]

I like it! But I'm a bit biased. I think the 1903A1 Unert Sniper rifle is my favorite rifle platform ever!

 

[6XC243]

It wasn't chambered for the 30-30, it was chambered in 30'03, a big difference.
The 30-30 is a rimmed cartridge, the 30'03 was a rimless cartridge, slightly longer than the '06, firing a heavier, 220 grain round nose bullet that was in vogue in the late 1800's.

.30-03 Springfield - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dam the aixelsyd or I mean dyslexia. Thanks for correcting me i would hat to have that info in circulation. ?

 

[Calfed]

I have used my Springfield 1903 w/ Leatherwood 8x scope at CMP vintage matches since 2012. Its a fun event. The scopes are pretty good but the mounting screws can be a little soft, so that is worth swapping out, but otherwise I haven't done anything to mine over the years. In fact, my 1903 with 8x scope is probably my favorite vintage rifle that I shoot. (along with my M1 Garands)

With match ammo, and if I do my part, it will hold the 10-ring at 300 yards and often at 600 yards too....unless I embarrass myself and somehow pull my first shot at 600 yards and hit the 7-ring, which I did at the CMP Eastern Games in NC (May 2019). Opps...I'll try not to do that again..

Thanks, RG. That is a nice looking rifle and targets

I've thought about using the rings from my Lyman junior targetspot or Fecker target scope with the HiLux scope. They all seem to have the same diameter main tube.

If I don't do that, which screws should I swap from the HiLux rings?

 

[Calfed]

The orginal 1903s were chambered for the 30-03 round, it had a tad longer neck to hold the Krag 30-40 220 RN Bullet. It wasnt that great. Two things changed that ideal, one being the studies of the 7mm Spanish round we encountered during the Spanish American war.

The second, and the one I find humorous was the Soldiers didnt like it. It couldnt compete with the US Krag in the accuracy department and soldiers didnt want to give up their Krags. The Army, in trying to push the '03s , Banned the Krag from the Service Rifle Matches at the Nationals and other matches, simply because the '03 couldnt compete.

In 1906 they decided to go with the 30-06 150 gr bullet and the rest is history. In 1909 the ban on the Krag was lifted because the '03s with the '06 round pulled way ahead in the Accuracy department.

Nobody's (military) bolt gun could compete with the 1903s (including the 'A3) regarding accuracy. We can see that by comparing the scores fired in the CMPs GSM Vintage Rifle Matches. Plus the fact that the '03 action was chosen to be used in the Mann Devices used to test military ammo.

To the OP, looking at the groups posted, it appears your rifle is more then accurate enough to compete in the Vintage Sniper Matches. In those matches the 1941 version fare better then the A4 version because of the glass. But being Army I couldnt build a Marine Rifle. So I went for the 'A4 in my Springfield sniper.

I think its great you partnered up with your son for the match, A perfect father - son activity, you will enjoy it.
I wish my son was closer and interested. No one here wants to get involved so when I go to such matches I end up having to shoot with make up teams. We didnt have the chance to train as team members.

Thanks, kraig!

My sons are both shooters and we have shot together for years.

I 've got a repro Swedish Mauser M41B that I had put together and it shoots pretty well. Of course, the 4X Weaver gives up a lot to the 8x "Unertl".

I've also got sported 1903A4. It still has the original (I assume) barrel, as well as the bolt and scope mount. It has been blued and put into a nice White Line sporter stock. I've thought about restoring that for my other son to use.

 

[Calfed]

I like it! But I'm a bit biased. I think the 1903A1 Unert Sniper rifle is my favorite rifle platform ever!

And if I'm not mistaken, you have a real 1903A1 sniper rifle.

 

[cplnorton]

And if I'm not mistaken, you have a real 1903A1 sniper rifle.

I actually have been very, very blessed to find one of each variation that I could afford. But I bought them before really a lot of research was done on them, so I got them really sort of cheap. But I have one of the NM and and one of the Special Targets that were built into the Unertl Snipers.

 

[Random Guy]

Which screws to replace? The HiLux screws in the front and rear mounts that attach to the base, and the screw at the ring that sets the amount of travel that the scope uses. I think those 3 are the screws that are a little soft. I used mine for 4 years before I upgraded the screws. One of them broke off when I went to replace it...

 

[6XC243]

I have used my Springfield 1903 w/ Leatherwood 8x scope at CMP vintage matches since 2012. Its a fun event. The scopes are pretty good but the mounting screws can be a little soft, so that is worth swapping out, but otherwise I haven't done anything to mine over the years. In fact, my 1903 with 8x scope is probably my favorite vintage rifle that I shoot. (along with my M1 Garands)

With match ammo, and if I do my part, it will hold the 10-ring at 300 yards and often at 600 yards too....unless I embarrass myself and somehow pull my first shot at 600 yards and hit the 7-ring, which I did at the CMP Eastern Games in NC (May 2019). Opps...I'll try not to do that again..

Hey Ramdom

What is that target system you are sporting in your photos? How does it work?

Eye on the "6"

"6"

 

[Random Guy]

"What is that target system you are sporting in your photos? How does it work? "

CMP started using these electronic targets in 2017 and they are awesome. Made by Kongsberg Target Systems (KTS) of Norway. If you google “CMP electronic targets” you’ll see several articles. For example:

CMP Target Systems - Civilian Marksmanship Program

American shooters and hunters dating to the 18th Century have been firing on a variety of targets for defense preparedness, hunting and competition. As technology has advanced, so have the targets we use. For decades, printed targets have been the mainstay of military, police and civilian...

thecmp.org

CMP Marches Forward with Electronic Targets at History-Making Matches in June: Part 1 - Civilian Marksmanship Program

By Ashley Brugnone, CMP Writer CAMP PERRY, Ohio – The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) closed out the month of June with an entire week of successful competition on its traveling electronic target system – an encouraging and influential mark in the history of Camp Perry, the CMP and the world...

thecmp.org

 

[Calfed]

Which screws to replace? The HiLux screws in the front and rear mounts that attach to the base, and the screw at the ring that sets the amount of travel that the scope uses. I think those 3 are the screws that are a little soft. I used mine for 4 years before I upgraded the screws. One of them broke off when I went to replace it...

Do you believe there would be an advantage to using original Fecker, Litschert, Lyman, or Unertl base/rings in place of the HiLux units that came with the scope?

 

[Random Guy]

I have a buddy who uses original Unertl mounts with his Leatherwood scope. The clicks are much better and repeatable with the Unertl mounts. Original Unertl mounts are expensive if they are in good working order. I can't speak for the other mounts, but have had a Lyman mount that needed the knobs serviced, but worked well after that. The Leatherwood glass is coated and the scope is much brighter than originals.

 

[6XC243]

Cool! Thanks!

CMP started using these electronic targets in 2017 and they are awesome. Made by Kongsberg Target Systems (KTS) of Norway. If you google “CMP electronic targets” you’ll see several articles. For example:

CMP Target Systems - Civilian Marksmanship Program

American shooters and hunters dating to the 18th Century have been firing on a variety of targets for defense preparedness, hunting and competition. As technology has advanced, so have the targets we use. For decades, printed targets have been the mainstay of military, police and civilian...

thecmp.org

CMP Marches Forward with Electronic Targets at History-Making Matches in June: Part 1 - Civilian Marksmanship Program

By Ashley Brugnone, CMP Writer CAMP PERRY, Ohio – The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) closed out the month of June with an entire week of successful competition on its traveling electronic target system – an encouraging and influential mark in the history of Camp Perry, the CMP and the world...

thecmp.org

 

[sandwarrior]

Apologizes for the digression, but I have a different understanding of history and why the US quickly abandoned the 30-03 and adopted the 30-06.

In a nutshell: In 1905 the Germans shocked the world's great military powers with the introduction of the 8x57mm 'S Patrone" bullet, which used a radical bullet for the era - a pointed/spitzer boat tail bullet at a velocity of around 2340 fps. The US, UK, Russia, Japan and others immediately realized that the lightweight, 198 grain spitzer boat-tail provided excellent long range performance and overnight basically outclassed all other major military rounds at that time.

My understanding is that Springfield Armory rather quickly copied the German's spitzer boat-tail bullet design and came out with the 30-06. See Ammo Encyclopedia (2nd Edition), by Michael Bussard, page 518:

"Technically speaking, the 30-01 and 30-03 Springfield cartridges were old news from 1900 on...However, everything changed when the German Army replaced their heavy round nose bullet in the 8.x57mm Mauser with the lighter spitzer "S" type in 1905. A new era had begun and the U.S. could not afford to fall behind. As a result, the Ordnance Bureau sent the engineers back to work to modify the Model 1903 cartridge for a modern, light weight, sptizer bullet."

..and page 531:

"Undoubtedly, the 8x57mm Mauser is the most famous military cartridge in history....Perhaps more important, it was the founding father of a cartridge dynasty which includes such military calibers as the 30-06 Springfield, 7.5x53mm French MAS, 7.65x53mm Belgian Mauser, 7x57mm Mauser, and 7.7x58mm Japanese Ariska. Indeed, the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge of today is a direct decedent of the 8x57mm Mauser cartridge."

...indeed, after 1905 most military's scrambled to update their heavy, round nose bullets with boat tailed (pointed) design. The 30-06 was the first cartridge to be mimicked after Germany’s revolutionary bullet design. That's my understanding of why the 30-03 was only made for 3 years...

I need to clarify a point or two here. In 1905 The Germans introduced the 154 gr. Spitzer that was flat based. It was pushed out at about 2900 fps. It wasn't until the 1930's that they went back to a heavier boat-tailed spitzer 198 gr. bullet. Which was pushed out at 2550 fps.

So, in WWI they used the 154 gr. bullet. In WWII they used the 198 gr. bullet. Success, in either case, is subjective. As a machine-gun and sniper round, the 198 gr. is superior, IMO.
It was made to remain stable out to 2500m The earlier 154 gr. was probably better for line infantry as it was lighter and recoiled less. Either had plenty of energy to kill at most any distance the bullet would remain stable and accurate.

 

[Calfed]

I got behind on this project, but finally received the scope back from Hilux, supposedly repaired. Last week I took the rifle to range, where I mounted the HiLux scope and found that the cross hairs were canted about 45 degrees off plumb. Damn!


Has anyone else experienced this problem?


I called HiLux and they explained that I could loosen a couple of screws on one of the rings and plumb the reticle. Has anyone done this before and if so, any suggestions on the best way to make sure the reticle is level?


I went ahead and fired the gun at 25 yds as is and found the rounds hit far to the right. I adjusted the scope until the hits were centered, then moved the target back to 75 yards. I couldn't get the rifle to group very well and finally removed the scope and fired 5 rounds of the Federal Gold Medal Match using the iron sights and was rewarded with an approximate 1" group. So Chuck , the gunsmith, did a fantastic job with the rifle. Still working with HiLux on the scope.


@75 yards. Pasters covering 25 yard shots, unpasted holes @ 75 yards with scope, small group in upper left shot with iron sights @ 75 yards.

 

[6XC243]

I got behind on this project, but finally received the scope back from Hilux, supposedly repaired. Last week I took the rifle to range, where I mounted the HiLux scope and found that the cross hairs were canted about 45 degrees off plumb. Damn!


Has anyone else experienced this problem?


I called HiLux and they explained that I could loosen a couple of screws on one of the rings and plumb the reticle. Has anyone done this before and if so, any suggestions on the best way to make sure the reticle is level?


I went ahead and fired the gun at 25 yds as is and found the rounds hit far to the right. I adjusted the scope until the hits were centered, then moved the target back to 75 yards. I couldn't get the rifle to group very well and finally removed the scope and fired 5 rounds of the Federal Gold Medal Match using the iron sights and was rewarded with an approximate 1" group. So Chuck , the gunsmith, did a fantastic job with the rifle. Still working with HiLux on the scope.


@75 yards. Pasters covering 25 yard shots, unpasted holes @ 75 yards with scope, small group in upper left shot with iron sights @ 75 yards.

"suggestions on the best way to make sure the reticle is level" Hey calved one of the easiest ways I have plumbed a cross hair on a round rifle is to hang a plumb line down range pull the bolt center the plumb line in the bore rotate the vertical cross hairs to the plumb line / center of the bore and tighten the scope mount screws and recheck.

 

[Calfed]

What is a good distance to accomplish that from?

 

[6XC243]

You can do it in a room in your house. I have a plumb Bob hanging on a push pin on the adjacent wall from a rifle vise

What is a good distance to accomplish that from?

 

[6XC243]

It depends on how close your parallax will adjust to.

You can do it in a room in your house. I have a plumb Bob hanging on a push pin on the adjacent wall from a rifle vise

 

[Calfed]

Thanks, guys

I think 50 yards for the scope, so that would be the closest

 

[sandwarrior]

It depends on how close your parallax will adjust to.

An IOTA from @264shooter works well for that as well as it’s original intended purpose. That would be dry fire practice indoors with a VERY clear sight picture of your target through your favorite outdoor scope.

 

[6XC243]

IOTA? Please explain. Dry firing is my best option for inclement weather practice.

 

[Calfed]

The thing that kills me is that I have a Lyman Super Targetspot and a Fecker which both look better than the HiLux, but are unmarked as to power. I would gladly use them if I could determine that they are of legal power.

I also have a Litschert Spotshot, but it is marked "10 power" and needs a new reticle.

Went ahead and mounted the Fecker and the Lyman, just to see how they looked.

 

[Calfed]

I got to the range today and plumbed the reticle in the HiLux scope and shot the rifle. I also mounted the Fecker and shot the rifle and the 1903 liked the Fecker much better (maybe)

Here is the HiLux group...almost 3 MOA (but with a possible explanation)




Here is the Fecker...about 1.25 MOA



After I dismounted the HiLux scope and mounted the Fecker, a range buddy, who has a HiLux equipped M1903 and is quite happy with it, stopped by. He was looking over my dismounted HiLux and advised that he thought I might not have had all the screws on the mount tight.

If so, that might explain the large group size, which seems to be large in the windage dimension.

 

[sandwarrior]

IOTA? Please explain. Dry firing is my best option for inclement weather practice.

Sorry this took a long time to get back on this. Never saw an alert to this thread??

Anyhow, it stands for Indoor Optical Training Aid. Chuck, whose email I included above, sells them. It works like a scope cap, but allows you to focus as short as ten feet. So you can dry fire on a target inside the house instead of focusing somewhere outside the house....and possibly alarming neighbors. In that regard one could also call it a safety measure in that you are not aiming the rifle at something you do not intend to kill....i.e. the neighbors house or shed.

8541 Tactical - Indoor Optical Training Aid (IOTA)

8541tactical.com

IOTA scope - Google Search

www.google.com