Reticle canted?

[SmokeyJoe101]

Leveled rifle, used a Fix_It Stix scope jack to make scope parallel to rifle. Hung a plumb bob and reticle is canted to left using the flashlight method. Used my Send-It level to double check rifle level and bottom of scope. All was good. But reticle still canted anything I may have missed?
Gun is a never shot Ruger Precision Rifle and the scope is a Athlon Cronus with Burris XTR rings.

 

[mikehotel]

I returned one Athlon scope, (don't remember what model, may have been the Cronus) because the reticle was canted to the left. Just return it.

 

[Ex E6]

May I inquire as to how you leveled rifle ?.

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

May I inquire as to how you leveled rifle ?.

I put it in a work station with a canting knob with my Send It on the the rail. Adjusted the knob until the Send It lit up green indicating it was level. Verified Send It with several bubble levels to ensure it was reading on level

 

[Ex E6]

I put it in a work station with a canting knob with my Send It on the the rail. Adjusted the knob until the Send It lit up green indicating it was level. Verified Send It with several bubble levels to ensure it was reading on level

I often wonder WHY one doesn't level off the bore ?. I've got an assembly rifle jig fully adjustable for bolt or AR rifles and I use it to lock in bore axis level rather than rail mount . #32 ft. away from the muzzle is a dead level and plumb crosshair permanently affixed to a cabinet .
Once I ensure everything is copacetic I snug up the rifle ,slip in a laser bore sighter and elevate or lower onto center of crosshair . As I scaled a 200 Yd. target to 32 ft. on CAD ,with additional horizontal hash marks for scope alignment help . Doing this has allowed ME to be within 1.0" of said target most of the time . Then when I actually do range load development I'll fine tune the scope to that full scale target .

I've an older Winchester Mod 70 ,which unfortunately had a scope mounted ,problem was Bases aren't perfectly aligned with bore and supposedly a master gunsmith did the drilling tapping and mounting back in the day .

So I want MY bore as the basis of aligning any scope base mount . That's why I asked How You leveled Your Rifle .

 

[Darryle]

Plumb bob thru scope and bore, call it good. Rail can be off, centering thru the bore axis is true

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

I often wonder WHY one doesn't level off the bore ?. I've got an assembly rifle jig fully adjustable for bolt or AR rifles and I use it to lock in bore axis level rather than rail mount . #32 ft. away from the muzzle is a dead level and plumb crosshair permanently affixed to a cabinet .
Once I ensure everything is copacetic I snug up the rifle ,slip in a laser bore sighter and elevate or lower onto center of crosshair . As I scaled a 200 Yd. target to 32 ft. on CAD ,with additional horizontal hash marks for scope alignment help . Doing this has allowed ME to be within 1.0" of said target most of the time . Then when I actually do range load development I'll fine tune the scope to that full scale target .

I've an older Winchester Mod 70 ,which unfortunately had a scope mounted ,problem was Bases aren't perfectly aligned with bore and supposedly a master gunsmith did the drilling tapping and mounting back in the day .

So I want MY bore as the basis of aligning any scope base mount . That's why I asked How You leveled Your Rifle .

Good info and something else for me to look at.
Let me see I got this right, I need to somehow level the bore? I don’t have a jig, so is there an alternative method?
Then adjust my reticle to level/plumb based on a plumb bob/horizontal set up that is 32‘ away? Could I use one of those laser levelers on a tripod, I have one for construction work?
Then scale down a target for the 32’, then with a laser bore sighter crack my tracking?

 

[Aggrofish]

years ago I had a vortex viper pst 6-24 that was canted. Sent it in on warranty they verified. It happens

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Shoot a tall target test. That will tell you for sure.

 

[chevy_man]

Straighten the reticle with a plumb bob.

Run the elevation turret through it's full range.

If the turret and reticle aren't in alignment you'll see them diverge.

More often than not the reticle and the turret are straight to each other but not perfectly aligned with the scope body.
This has zero effect other than the fact that you can't use the silly jigs to level from the bottom of the scope. Levels on top of turrets is equally useless.

I have never had a problem leveling the reticle with a plumb bob, and verifying with a tall target test. You can make them yourself if you have a $30 4' level and a piece of string.
If you attach a bubble level to the scope just level it to the reticle. You wouldn't think it's hard but the number of people with "bad" scopes because they use 2 different $1 levels that weren't true is quite astonishing.

Quick tip to verify a level. You should be able to set it down on a surface, mark it so you can hit the same place. Should be about to flip it 180 and upside down and 180 again always getting the same readings.
The last time I tried to buy a simple torpedo level that retailed for $90 (US made) for a 9" level, I opened and verified 8 of them were off by a full bubble. Bubble followed the level, Rather than the counter it was placed on.

Sales guy refunded me, and told me to go somewhere else. He had zero interest in returning the entire inventory he had as garbage, when he'd just sell them to others who wouldn't bother to check their tools.
I was able to find 2 out of the 5 I checked at Lowe's that were Chinese made and cost a whooping $28 that were spot on.


So, while we always try and buy good tools, don't let the price or manufacturer keep you from verifying. The most important guy in the machine shop is the calibration tech that keeps every measurement tool working correctly.

 

[Ex E6]

Good info and something else for me to look at.
Let me see I got this right, I need to somehow level the bore? I don’t have a jig, so is there an alternative method?
Then adjust my reticle to level/plumb based on a plumb bob/horizontal set up that is 32‘ away? Could I use one of those laser levelers on a tripod, I have one for construction work?
Then scale down a target for the 32’, then with a laser bore sighter crack my tracking?

NO ,You don't have to be 32 ft. or any specific distance ( That is MY setup ) . Rifle barrels taper for the most part so leveling one does nothing ,yet the bore axis itself does . So cradle Your rifle and use a bore laser ,with ability to project onto a stationary plumb and level crosshair paper target .

Closer to the muzzle is Better . Once you've established that mark with a fine pen on the paper ,mount your scope .. Elevated rails ( such as 20 MOA or more ) can be a nuisance . Need to determine scope center distance on same paper as to bore laser center . Vertical or plumb should line exactly the horizontal or level won't of course . This has always given ME a scope bore centering level rifle reference ,from there windage adjustment makes horizontal corrections . Bottom line I've always doubled checked rail ring mount against bore ,as more times than not something is amiss .

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

I need to walk away from it before it makes me bat shit crazy. All of my digital equipment says it is good to go, with ~.2 degree error. The analog stuff says I am crooked referencing the same plumb bob line.

i am going to the range in about a week and will setup a tall target and see what I get. I plan to do one using the turrets and one using the reticle. Hopefully they match

 

[Darryle]

This way is fool proof, you cannot have the plumb align parallel with the reticle and be centered in the bore. You can run either turret and verify turrets are right.

The vertical crosshair will stay parallel to the plumb while running either turret.

Stolen from cyberspace, credit to whomever owns the crayons

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

This way is fool proof, you cannot have the plumb align parallel with the reticle and be centered in the bore. You can run either turret and verify turrets are right.

The vertical crosshair will stay parallel to the plumb while running either turret.

Stolen from cyberspace, credit to whomever owns the crayons

View attachment 8402686

Somehow that don’t make sense. If the scopes reticle is aligned within the scope correctly and the scope is aligned to the rifle correctly then you should be able to use hold over or turrets, correct or not?

 

[Ikeman83]

If the reticle tracks in line with the crosshair, that's not a scope issue, it's a flats issue.

 

[Darryle]

Pretty simple, forget the rifles orientation, forget the scopes orientation, hang a plumb line, align the bore to center vertically on the plumb, now align the vertical crosshair with the plumb, verify plumb passes thru the center of the bore and is still aligned with the vertical crosshair, repeat until both are aligned, verify it's true by running the elevation turret up and down, should remain parallel, now run the windage turret, vertical crosshair should remain parallel to plumb, if so, you are done.

 

[theLBC]

generally, one might expect the reticle to be level with the turret or bottom of the scope (hence the tools to install them using the bottom).
while the scope might track fine, it might be odd looking at a canted turret. send it back. jmo.

 

[Darryle]

Somehow that don’t make sense. If the scopes reticle is aligned within the scope correctly and the scope is aligned to the rifle correctly then you should be able to use hold over or turrets, correct or not?

You want the reticle to move vertically thru the bore, same with the windage moving horizontal thru the bore.

If neither do this, you will have issues.

 

[sloporsche]

I took days leveling ,i just wanted to change scope mounts from see through to lower mounts . When i looked through the scope the crosshairs were canted , i loosened the the clamping screws and turned the scope until it was leveled , range shooting proved it was good to go . done .

 

[Ex E6]

Somehow that don’t make sense. If the scopes reticle is aligned within the scope correctly and the scope is aligned to the rifle correctly then you should be able to use hold over or turrets, correct or not?

I realize this doesn't help You determine scope cant in any way shape or fashion . Yet it nearly shows the method I use for mounting and lining MY scopes up . Exceptions being I use a laser cartridge bore sight'r ,believing they are slightly more accurate than eyeballing .
I also have a couple of ( 1.006" and 1.1181" )precision machined 4440 hardened scope ring alignment fixture bars . They have a level machined area for My Starrett machine level to rest in . Also a few tube of the same dimensions with a cartridge specific opening in either end . .223 & .308 and 7mm and .338 in both of those tubes . Purpose is laser cartridge case fits each ,so as to make scope and bore measurements as well as alignment much easier . I don't believe I've ever run into a reticle cant ,as when I line everything up and place my scope in their rings I line vertically with target using those laser dot marks . Obviously I want BOTH marks centered onto the targets vertical aka plumb line . As I said it gets Me within an 1.0" of zeroing 95% of the time .
Another thing I do before worrying about zeroing ,is shooting #1 clean bore shoot #2 clean bore through #8 shots . Has worked well for ME .
Unfortunately as 6.5CM wasn't available then ,My machinist didn't make one in that caliber and he's now deceased .

 

[Luckyshot]

You dont need the bore in the equation at all. Its virtually 0 error.

Level the reticle to whatever bubble level on the rifle and youre good. Flashlight method is by far the easiest way to do it.

 

[308pirate]

Somehow that don’t make sense. If the scopes reticle is aligned within the scope correctly and the scope is aligned to the rifle correctly then you should be able to use hold over or turrets, correct or not?

Aligned to which part of the rifle?

That's what I think you're missing

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

Aligned to which part of the rifle?

That's what I think you're missing

How do you center the bore on a plumb line, by just looking through it?

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

generally, one might expect the reticle to be level with the turret or bottom of the scope (hence the tools to install them using the bottom).
while the scope might track fine, it might be odd looking at a canted turret. send it back. jmo.

this is what I got so far, they level on the rifle a MDT send-it attached to the Picatinny rail on its most sensitive setting is dead on green, if it means any thing the level in my iPhone reads level everywhere

 

[FredHammer]

My rifles are fit to me, the scopes are fit to the horizon. I only care the scope tube levels are matched with the cross hairs which are leveled to the horizon.

 

[Luckyshot]

this is what I got so far, they level on the rifle a MDT send-it attached to the Picatinny rail on its most sensitive setting is dead on green, if it means any thing the level in my iPhone reads level everywhere

The level on an iphone is worth about as much as tits on a bull. Just spin the scope tube to match that plumb line while your send-it reads green. Done

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

The level on an iphone is worth about as much as tits on a bull. Just spin the scope tube to match that plumb line while your send-it reads green. Done

That’s what I got right now. That’s why I was saying earlier on. I am just going to tall target it one target for turrets and one for hold over. That statement seemed to rile some feathers saying I could not have both. If for some reason the tall target does not work out for both I am going to send the scope in and let them check it at Athlon. I would just return it but I don’t think Opticplanet takes them back with it being in the rings and all. Live a learn, should had bench tested it first. Well I will bench test it before sending it back anyway

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

I realize this doesn't help You determine scope cant in any way shape or fashion . Yet it nearly shows the method I use for mounting and lining MY scopes up . Exceptions being I use a laser cartridge bore sight'r ,believing they are slightly more accurate than eyeballing .
I also have a couple of ( 1.006" and 1.1181" )precision machined 4440 hardened scope ring alignment fixture bars . They have a level machined area for My Starrett machine level to rest in . Also a few tube of the same dimensions with a cartridge specific opening in either end . .223 & .308 and 7mm and .338 in both of those tubes . Purpose is laser cartridge case fits each ,so as to make scope and bore measurements as well as alignment much easier . I don't believe I've ever run into a reticle cant ,as when I line everything up and place my scope in their rings I line vertically with target using those laser dot marks . Obviously I want BOTH marks centered onto the targets vertical aka plumb line . As I said it gets Me within an 1.0" of zeroing 95% of the time .
Another thing I do before worrying about zeroing ,is shooting #1 clean bore shoot #2 clean bore through #8 shots . Has worked well for ME .
Unfortunately as 6.5CM wasn't available then ,My machinist didn't make one in that caliber and he's now deceased .

Now it makes more sense

 

[308pirate]

How do you center the bore on a plumb line,

 

[chevy_man]

That’s what I got right now. That’s why I was saying earlier on. I am just going to tall target it one target for turrets and one for hold over. That statement seemed to rile some feathers saying I could not have both. If for some reason the tall target does not work out for both I am going to send the scope in and let them check it at Athlon. I would just return it but I don’t think Opticplanet takes them back with it being in the rings and all. Live a learn, should had bench tested it first. Well I will bench test it before sending it back anyway

I think you ran yourself around in circles.

So long as the turret and reticle are square to each other, you can use either/or.

You don't even have to go shoot. With your flashlight just dial the elevation fully up and down and see if the reticle remains parallel to the string.
If it's canted and tracking crooked you'll see it diverge as you run through the travel. If you see this, send it to Athlon.
If it appears to travel straight, go shoot and verify.

 

[smoothy8500]

Then again, "straight over the bore" is irrelevant. Level/plumb reticle is all you need.

 

[FredHammer]

Then again, "straight over the bore" is irrelevant. Level/plumb reticle is all you need.

A lot of bread sandwiches been fucked up in this thread!

 

[SmokeyJoe101]

I think you ran yourself around in circles.

So long as the turret and reticle are square to each other, you can use either/or.

You don't even have to go shoot. With your flashlight just dial the elevation fully up and down and see if the reticle remains parallel to the string.
If it's canted and tracking crooked you'll see it diverge as you run through the travel. If you see this, send it to Athlon.
If it appears to travel straight, go shoot and verify.

this makes sense, best I can tell it is running parallel and square. The turrets are so stiff everything moves around a bit, but it’s the best setup I can manage at the moment. Time to shoot it

 

[Ex E6]

I use caliber cartridge specific laser sighter's . Either way using a laser sighter is the way to Go IMO .