Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

[Afghanvet09]

Does anybody have any information about whether a ricochet bullet from a steel plate target is a potential fire hazard? I went to a private range yesterday and had one of the owners tell me this when I brought my steel target. It sounded ridiculous, I didn't comment and seeking some info, thanks.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Shooting steel at night through PVS-14's you can see a spark from the bullet impact. Sometimes I can see it with the naked eye when I do night fires on my range. I have heard of what that guy is telling you but I have never witnessed it. But I guess it is possible if there is a spark.

 

[jmorris]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

I have caught grass on fire shooting steel with API ammo. So, sure it can happen.

 

[fargo007]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

First of all, there shouldn't be ANY "ricochet" from shooting a steel target if it is proper steel, facing you, and angled slightly down. The bullet will be disintegrated if it impacts the steel. There's a really good video out there in slo-mo of bullets striking steel.

I have seen firework looking splashes at night too, but I wonder if they are really "sparks" or in the case of a lead bullet with a copper jacket striking AR500 steel:

1 - I believe lead/copper is non-ferrous. It doesn't make sparks.

2 - We are not removing steel from the target, so it isn't steel.

3 - Therefore - Is it little shards of copper that have gone molten / red hot?

In any case I am unaware of any fire being caused by engaging a steel target with a rifle. Steel targets are in such prolific use.

There are also folks who join, or remain for a million years at gun clubs expressly to meddle and ruin other people's good time. Maybe it was about that more than the steel.

--Fargo007

 

[Afghanvet09]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Probably better to say downward bullet deflection toward ground (target is angled so) rather than ricochet. When I saw the ash tray on the table 4 feet away from the shooting lanes, I reached my own conclusions of what likely started their range fire. Highly doubt (although possible) they are shooting armor piercing ammo at this range. Using AP rounds on steel doesn't sound like a good idea for anybody due to possibility of damaging the steel target itself also. Anyway the place was weird and you had to shoot a through crack and then through some tires. Here's some pictures:

 

[James in Wyoming]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

it can happen, and doesn't require AP or API to do it. I won't say it's common but I have seen it a few times in the recent drought years we have had here in the west. Some semi-regular shooting venues out here shut down in high summer for precisely that reason. Whether it is jacket material, core, or part of the target (where do you think those divots come from? steel is being removed) I do not know, but fires have indeed been started in the right conditions from regular bullets on steel.
Best,
James

 

[Afghanvet09]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Interesting observation (noise) and makes sense. I think also (finding out more info from other locals in that area) it's to keep the barrels pointed straight downrange -- it's a narrow lane and to the left a farmer's field on the other side of the trees. Also heard a guy with a .50 cal before the tires was shooting over the berm and hit a house (no injuries).

The set up is just a hassle (could not use my rifle rest (as rifle sat up too high). Reminds me of those tiny holes snipers would shoot out of in Iraq.

That berm you see at the very end is 500 yards. I managed to put 2 out of the 5 M855 rounds into the 10 ring using iron sights and just resting on that plywood table top. My SDMR shoots great...



Here's a one round fired and one round smack (i.e., 69 grain BH Match) on the steel target and was fired using a day optic (Leupold SPR scope) from 500 yards through that tiny hole, no bags, just table rest using my SDMR.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Steel cores, jackets and such have been known to start fires.
Sometimes it doesn't even take that. I happened to witness watching a range catch on fire while I was shooting. All my ammo checked out with a magnet as "good to go" by the range master prior to and after the fire (they checked it again to make sure I didn't sneak anything in)! I still did not feel good about it since I liked the range and every fire was money out of their pocket!

 

[Munimula]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

The only fires I've ever encountered were in very dry grassy areas with tracers and API rounds. Not common fair the average shooter so fire risk should be non existent. To appease the guy you could rake bare dirt for several feet around the target if it isn't already and angle the target downwards. Dirt don't burn.

 

[MrSwede]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??


I once started a small fire on my local range when shooting at a steel target, so yeah, it can happen.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to add that some fill the tires with insulation and chicken wire to keep it in place. A 50 was actually allowed on the range. Common sense should have been taken into account.

Irons at 500.....man that's great shooting. You must have really good vision.</div></div>

The SDM is trained to get good hits with rack grade and a BDC to about 600 meters. The SDM must have vision good enough to be able to stay focused on a sharp front sight. The target can be blurred. After all, a center of mass hold on a blur is not a handicap for someone who knows a few things about good shooting.

 

[Afghanvet09]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Glad I posted the question, gained some helpful intel. With all the dirt around, I do think the range folks are a little paranoid --but it's their house and their rules.. I may can get over not using my steel target but those tires and shooting through that crack doesn't work for me. I'm testing ammo and need my rest and its useless in a arrangement like that.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

I've seen sparks off my AR400 steel target at dusk. I was shooting Hornady match 308 loaded with 168gr A-Max, and it left very tiny dimples in the steel target. So, yes, even non-steel ammo can cause sparking on a steel target, which could theoretically start a fire. I like the idea of raking around the target to eliminate the fuel source that the sparks may hit.

 

[maddesign]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

over the summer someone shooting steel cased ammo started a forest fire shooting the plates at Angeles Shooting Range in CA.

they test all suspect ammo with a magnet nowadays

 

[groovebus]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

There have been at least two fires at Burro Canyon CA since I've been shooting there. Both were caused by steel core/jacketed ammo on steel targets. Steel on steel should spark pretty good. Plus I think the steel jackets stay hotter longer so when they land in the dead, dry grass it lights up. It is kind of windy up there too.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

steel cored and jacketed ammo can cause fires and it gets white hot on impact so if it makes it intot he grass it will likley start a fire. if using steel copper jacketer lead cored projectiles are the only projectiles that you should use anyway because you dont want to start punching holes in your steel.

Also any API, Tracer or other incerdary should not be used on a standard rifle range because of the fire risk i know we were always looking out for fires here in Australia at range practices and nothing was as good as starting them as tracers.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

On two or three occasions I've witnessed grass fires triggered by FMJ rounds landing in dry grass and igniting the vegetation from the heat. Clearly, irrefutably no tracers or API involved, just a prolonged drought, on a hot day, with bullets landing in an unlucky spot. Not a whole lot of solution to it other than to shoot straight into bare dirt berms and keep fire extinguishers around.

 

[sjb269]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Without getting too deep into the physics of how it can happen... Straw, which is similar to dry annual grasses found at shooting ranges, has an ignition temperature as low as 250C. Add low Relative humidity and yea a hot piece of lead from a rifle can light up a hill side faster than you can believe!
Just have a 2.5 gal class A extinguisher near by and you should be able to handle it if the wind isn't blowing too bad.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Fires are started all the time in california using steel targets. It's hot and dry with parched shrubs everywhere, so even a small spark or hot lead can smoke up quickly.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On two or three occasions I've witnessed grass fires triggered by FMJ rounds landing in dry grass and igniting the vegetation from the heat. Clearly, irrefutably no tracers or API involved, just a prolonged drought, on a hot day, with bullets landing in an unlucky spot. Not a whole lot of solution to it other than to shoot straight into bare dirt berms and keep fire extinguishers around. </div></div>

I believe I was there on one of those occasions you were Jonathan. I damn sure remember the fire!

 

[azdead]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

Shot in AZ desert for 8+ years, real dry, never caught fire.

 

[Gofaster23]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

My local range (Sacramento Valley Shooting Center) does not allow FMJ's on the steel range for this very reason. There was a fire a few years back. Also no magnum calibers since they destroy the steel.

 

[sandwalk3r]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

I am interested in getting stell targets, myself, but ricochet is a bigger concern of mine. My dad was at a nearby shoot last fall shooting his 1911 at a steel target. A fragment of the FMJ round came back and plugged him square in the left side of his chest. It did not penetrate his shirt, but it broke his skin w/a little bleeding.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwalk3r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am interested in getting stell targets, myself, but ricochet is a bigger concern of mine. My dad was at a nearby shoot last fall shooting his 1911 at a steel target. A fragment of the FMJ round came back and plugged him square in the left side of his chest. It did not penetrate his shirt, but it broke his skin w/a little bleeding.</div></div> Shooting steel with a pistol is something you have to be smart about. Good eye protection, long sleeves, 15yd minimum distance and having your targets angled down is all you need to have a fun time. Back splatter can always happen but if you're expecting it to occasionally happen and are prepared for it, you shouldn't have much of a problem.

Honestly I've had more problems with running ranges in the desert with sporadic rocks around than I ever had on a properly set up steel range, including the course I took where we were shooting at 7m angled targets with 9mm.

 

[cooper_257]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

if humidity is low enough you can start a fire by shooting steal, or even bullets hitting rocks.

 

[Ulv61]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

I know it's not a fire, but this was something interesting that happened recently. Shooting from 450yd (shooting at a new place so had to show some competence before shooting long range) at an AR400 silhouette with a 338LM. I shot it at 700 and 800 later that day and the hits barely dented the steel (what a difference 800 FPE make!).

The spray-paint cans used to paint the targets were placed about 2-3 feet to the front and left of the target. Two cans got hit by shrapnel and resulted in the mess you see below. I imagine that those pieces of lead, copper and possibly steel had to be pretty hot, but evidently not hot enough to ignite the gases from the cans (would have been pretty cool though). Dry grass might have a lower ignition point, so it is probable to start a fire this way, IMO.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jacklove</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First of all, there shouldn't be ANY "ricochet" from shooting a steel target if it is proper steel, facing you, and angled slightly down. The bullet will be disintegrated if it impacts the steel. There's a really good video out there in slo-mo of bullets striking steel. </div></div>

be careful of absolute statments.

Link

 

[fargo007]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

What is so absolute about that statement? It is consistent with usage instructions from every major steel target company out there. Unless you (incorrectly) consider any portion of the projectile that remains after it breaks apart upon the face of the steel to be a "ricochet."

Ricochet would imply a single directional change of a projectile rather than the multi-directional splatter of a disintegrated one.

The link you posted indicates .50BMG full auto fire, which more than likely included tracers. It doesn't at all indicate there were steel targets involved. This seems less relevant to the issue of bullet + steel = fire than my statement rings as absolute.

In the scenario depicted above, was this a "ricochet" or was the paint can hit by pieces of the bullet or jacket as the bullet disintegrated (as I have claimed occurs)? It appears from the crater that the target was shot straight on, and not at an acute angle.

That target is now effectively ruined. A crater that deep that gets struck by a bullet will no longer drop fragments consistent with the angle the bullet strikes it at. Splatter could go anywhere. Plus the hardness of the steel is obviously compromised.

If that shooter had put the paint can anywhere behind the target it would not have been struck with frag. ;-)


--Fargo007

 

[Ulv61]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

I agree that the paint can was not struck by a ricochet, but by frag. In my original post I called it "shrapnel", and described how I thought the pieces of jacket, core and target could possibly start a fire, as they are more than likely very hot.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

be careful of absolute statments.

Link </div></div> I'll bet if someone were to get the investigation report they would likely find that the troops shooting the machine guns didn't remove the tracers from the belts, and that was the real cause of that fire. I've seen several brush fires started that way, and Lejeune's range control made us pull tracers on more than one occasion.

 

[gme]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

As pointed out the copper jacket fragments are plenty hot enough to start a brush fire if the target is placed in dry brush and the conditions are right, in low light I can sometimes see glowing fragments leaving the target (ar500 steel), in the hot summer months, I make sure any steel is in ample cleared areas and also switch to shooting balloons, they make very challenging targets when there's a breeze, easy to clean up after too.

 

[BradfromND]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

I watched a slo-mo video somewhere of a bullet hitting steel plates. It stated that the impact of the bullet on the steel caused enough friction to ignite dust particles and that is what the flash in low light is. Pretty interesting video. If I can find it again, I'll post it up on here. Obviously it's doing it during the day, you just can't see it.

 

[longshooter70]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

That looks like Maple Ridge range. How much more can they do to make it more unfriendly? I have another range that goes to 350 yards if you're interested. No problems with steel there either. Shoot me a pm and I'll tell you about it.

 

[Outback]

Re: Ricochet From Steel Targets and Fires??

steel ammo will cause fires