Hunting & Fishing Rifle zero for hunting?

[152]

Do you use or have you heard of Maxium Point Blank Range?
And does any one use this method for killing game?
Not on a computer or agame but real field use,.


I understand it ,way more than dialing in scopes etc,

and did not know where to put this ,here ,or basic markmanship,etc.
Seems it would apply (the topic) there too.

And could this mpbr be extended with say a farther zero?
Thanks.

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Depending on your reticle. Many will choose the top hash mark for the 100 yards zero and then use the subsequent lower hash marks for additional ranges.

Once you get used to it "dialing" becomes easy.

Also, depending on your reticle you center cross-hair can be your zero and then you have 5-10 hash marks lower and have plenty of marks to run way out there.

K.I.S.S. method and practice will be a large part of your success.

 

[boudin]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

MPBR takes into account the size of the target (specifically, the vital zone of the animal you are hunting in this case) and, based on the trajectory of the load you're shooting, assigns an optimal distance to zero your optic; such that any shot inside that distance and up to a certain distance beyond that zero point, should hit within the designated target zone. This largely negates the need for dialing at typical hunting distances. In my opinion, it's most applicable when hunting animals that may require a shot to be taken with some degree of urgency, i.e. a coyote that's not gonna hang around for very long when called in or a group of pigs that are going to run after the first shot is taken. If I don't have time to range and dial for a deer, then I surely don't have time to accurately determine if it's an animal I want to harvest and get a pattern on it's behavior.

Personally, I use a 100 yard zero, given that most of the shots on whitetail that I am presented with are 125 and in. I choose to dial for distances of 150 yards and out rather than use MPBR, because I want to know that the shot is going to land where I place the crosshairs and not just "close enough". Granted, with a 100 yard zero a 25 yard shot is going to be a half inch low, but a half inch is a deviation I am am comfortable with, especially that close.

 

[leagle2]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Maximum point blank range is not a function of your "zero". Maximum point blank range is the furthest distance that you can hold dead on the killing zone of the animal that you are hunting and hit that killing zone. If the killing zone of a deer is 10 inches, you can hit that zone whether you hit 5" above center or 5" below center. Your point blank range then is one where your bullet does not raise more than 5" above your point of aim nor more than 5" below your point of aim. Thus your MPBR is determined primarily by the size of the animal you are hunting (the kill zone on an elk is larger than the killing zone on a whitetail), your bullet, and the speed of your bullet. Given a certain bullet and a known velocity there is going to be only one distance at which your bullet will rise and fall 1/2 the diameter of your given kill zone. That is the distance that you sight in for if you are using MPBR. Using http://www.jbmballistics.com (a good starting point but you really need to know how your own rifle shoots) the 175 gr Berger VLD hunting bullet, at 2950ft/sec
at sea level and the center of the scope 2" above the center of the rifle's bore, your zero will be 310 yds and your MPBR is 364 yards. That is, given this set up, ideally you'd be able to make a killing shot on a whitetail deer by holding dead on out to 364 yards using no hold over or hold under. Using the calculator, if you sight in with this set up to be 3.7" high you'd be zero'd at 310 yards and have a MPBR of 365 yds.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Theoretically a MPBR zero could be used by a thinking rifleman, but I would never use it...At least not with a 10" vital zone.

Once zerod you theoretically end end up 5 inches high at a most reasonable 150 yards...Not to mention a 1.5 MOA rifle could be another couple inches high...not including a shooter induced bobble that means the bullet is as much as 7 inches high at what would otherwise be a no brainer of a shot.

Aim a little high or bobble a bit and you will never know what happened to you animal.

I prefer a 200 yard zero for my hunting rifles...When the animal is 300 yards out you will instinctively aim high anyway.

 

[knockemdown]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Zero your turrets @ 100yds. Then you have set baseline to run dope from.
You can always dial UP to your chosen MPBR correction and then go hunting...

Case in point.

This NXS on my .25DTI AR is zeroed @ 100yds, but when I'm on stand for coyotes, I dial up 0.3mils and leave it there. That gives me a ~275yd. point blank hold on a coyote. Given the fact that most called coyotes (and game animals, for that matter) are taken inside of 250yds, I'm golden for the vast majority of shot opportunities encountered. For the rare opportunity of a shot at distances much beyond 300yds, I'll go ahead & dial the correction, based off that 100yd zero.


Some guys may do it differently, but I like knowing that my turrets are zeroed @ 100yds. Then any dialing is strictly UP...

 

[Graham]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

A point-blank range zero is for people who don't know the trajectory of their ammunition, or who shoot at large targets and don't care where they hit them.

Zero at 100. Know your holdovers to 600. If you don't have time to dial just hold. Even with a .308 most reticles will get you to 700+ using holdovers.

 

[bowstryder]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Something not discussed yet...... do you have easy dial turrets to begin with? And where are you hunting? I have a 1/2 moa hunting rifle with a scope that you don't field dial. Where I hunt I won't see a shot longer than about 275 yds, ever. So I zero at 150yds But I still have a range card.
And to the gentleman who said MPBR has nothing to do with your zero..... really??? It has everything to do with your zero AND the game you are shooting at. MPBR is very different from animal to animal due to the varying vital zone so he was right on there.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

I am assumed the OP doesn't have turrets.
What do you guys recommend if there are no turrets on his rifle?

 

[Graham]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you guys recommend if there are no turrets on his rifle? </div></div>There are always adjustments, the question is whether they work properly and are repeatable.

But hopefully he has a reticle that has angular units of measurement. If not, he can derive the angular distance between the dots or the hash-marks, or between the crosshair and the start of the thick post on a duplex reticle, and by doing that gain at least one additional known aiming point.

 

[boudin]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Technically, leagle is correct that the <span style="font-style: italic">Maximum</span> point blank range is not <span style="font-style: italic">a function of your zero</span>, but rather your optimal zero is a function of the particular MPBR for the load you are shooting, given a particular target size. However, I think the way it was phrased insinuates that zero range is not relevant to MPBR, which it absolutely is. Point being... you can have a "point blank range" for any zero, but in order to take full advantage of the <span style="font-style: italic">Maximum</span> point blank range possible for that load and target size combination, you have to set your zero accordingly.

Making a recommendation on where to zero if you do not have the ability to dial for drop is pretty difficult without having a particular caliber, the potential range at which a shot would be taken, and the size of the animal being hunted. For my .243, with a maximum range potential of 300 yards on a whitetail, I would probably zero at 200 and hold on the shoulder if it is all the way out. Still, just typing that kinda makes me cringe as I don't think it is very responsible to guesstimate where your round is going to impact.

Truthfully, if I couldn't dial and didn't have some sort of reticle to accurately gauge a hold over, I would zero at 100 and pass on anything beyond 200 yards. I guess it's a matter of what <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> consider a "target zone". A target zone to me is the brain, vertebrae, or heart. Considering the whole lung region as the target zone isn't really acceptable to me, for my purposes.

 

[boudin]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">or between the crosshair and the start of the thick post on a duplex reticle, and gain at least one additional known aiming point. </div></div>
Agreed. That's about the best you can do.

 

[Graham]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boudin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">or between the crosshair and the start of the thick post on a duplex reticle, and gain at least one additional known aiming point. </div></div>Agreed. That's about the best you can do. </div></div>He could always get a better scope and learn how to use it to its potential.

That would make PBZ a thing of the past for him.

 

[Boss334OP]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A point-blank range zero is for people who don't know the trajectory of their ammunition, or who shoot at large targets and don't care where they hit them.

Zero at 100. Know your holdovers to 600. If you don't have time to dial just hold. Even with a .308 most reticles will get you to 700+ using holdovers. </div></div>
+1 MPBR is a cop out!

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

I zero all my rifles at 100 yards, but all my scopes have recticles that can be used for holdover MOA or MIl. What you zero on a scope that has no mil or moa reference marks would depend on where you are hunting and what you are hunting. I seldom need to take a shot over 200 yards so a 300 yard zero would be pointless. If you take mostly longer shots I could see advantages to a longer yardage zero.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

I see little upside in zeroing a hunting rifle at 100 yards.
I prefer a 200 yard zero with a standard cartridge.
Point and shoot to 250 yards then hold on the deers back at a full 300.
I find this quick and intuitive.

For open terrain I use something like my 338Edge with 225 Accubonds. I zero at 250, point and shoot to about 350, then hold on the back at a full 400. On these rifles I run turrets, but I don't play with the them until I have to...Way too slow until you get to some serious range...Then you do have time.

My dedicated long range (heavy) hunting rifles are zerod at 100, but are spun up to 200-250 yard for potential quick action....Then spin up as required
I suppose if you hunt from a stand you will have time to spin up, but I hunt remote areas on foot so its not for me.

Just my experience...Yours will of course vary.

Peace

 

[152]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Thanks for all the input..

But hopefully he has a reticle that has angular units of measurement. If not, he can derive the angular distance between the dots or the hash-marks, or between the crosshair and the start of the thick post on a duplex reticle, and by doing that gain at least one additional known aiming point.

Some thing like tascos 30/30 reticle..

Is the ultimate goal and is well put..

I bet I have read a thousand pages off google on this in the last few daze....
Also.I would say most hunters use some type of pbr zero to hunt..

And yes,I have a couple of newer scopes with BDC,and Mil-Dots..

In the process of measuring the scope ht over the bore,as posted in some of these threads...

 

[AIS]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

several years ago i just started zeroing my 25-06 in for 265 yds shooting 100 gr handloads and it worked like a charm!! just held dead on out to 310 and DRT. Now with a couple better scopes (USO's, and Leupolds) and custom rifles i've tried everything, dial, hold over, etc. I think they all have their place, but they can all leave u wondering to!! Will you have time to dial on that yote that just spotted you or that elk moving through that cut? Will the hold over work at this altitude? to many ?'s!! I like fast and flat shooting rounds that get u out there with little drop which helps alot, which is why its hard to get away from that 250 to 275 yrd zero on my hunting guns. It gets you out there right now with no thinking! and yea if the critter is 500+ you can dial or whatever but most of us are killing 90% of our animals inside 200 I'd bet.

 

[HathcockProtege]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

Long before I ever heard of "clicker" scopes, my Grandpa would always have me sight in my .243 (shooting 100 grain Partitions or Cor-Lokts) 1" high @ 100. His reasoning was that it was pretty much dead on @ 50, 1" hight @ 100, dead on @ about 150 and 2" low @ 200, which was a faaar shot for our hunting places. This gave me a MPBR of about 250.

Later in life -but still "pre-enlightenment"- I read a bunch about MPBR and followed an author's admonition to sight in 3" high @ 100. With most modern hunting rifle/load combos, this results in roughly: 25 yard 0, 50 yard +1.25, 100y +3.0, 150y +3.2, 200y +2.25, 250y 0, 300y -4".

I felt this gave me a fairly precise 300 yard coyote or deer hunting BPR and used it with great success for 3 years. Even made a couple headshots on deer @ about 120 yards and it was completely intuitive to do so. YMMV.

For deer hunting now, my scope is clicked up to Grandpa's old standby of +1 MOA from my 100 yard zero. Anything beyond 250...I'll take the time to click further up.

MPBR is a good thing to understand even for those of us that use "clicker scopes" to their full advantage. Real hunting situations don't always allow for careful range estimation or adjusting the scope for that range. More often than not I think (in about 2 seconds) : "There he is! I need to shoot NOW! What's the range? Oh well...it's somewhere between 175 and 250...I can see his chest; let's get this done!"

Maybe I'm just too gung-ho.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

I use an MPBR-based zero on a couple of hunting rifles because it basically eliminates the need to range to the target or do any holdover calculations, but its effectiveness hinges on the combination of your cartridge's ballistics, the prey's vital zone size and the conditions where you hunt.

Based on a 4" diameter vital spot, my coyote load's MPBR works out to 251 yards. That range is key because where I'm hunting, shots at coyotes generally are closer to 251 inches than 251 yards. If you can only use MPBR part of the time, IMHO, you're better off zeroing at a standard distance and forgetting MPBR.

According to QuickTarget, the external ballistics back half to QuickLoad, the optimum sight-in range with that MPBR is 219 yards (but I fudged by three feet and zeroed @220). With that zero, my maximum ordinate is +2" @131 yards, the zero is @220 yards and the bullet drop is 2" below line of sight @251 yards. So unless my calibrated eyeball tells me the 'yote is further than 250 yards, I don't have to take time to range to the target or calculate holdover, I just put the crosshairs over where his heart out to be and squeeze.

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

Re: Rifle zero for hunting?

MPBR takes into account the size of the target (specifically, the vital zone of the animal you are hunting in this case) and, based on the trajectory of the load you're shooting, assigns an optimal distance to zero your optic; such that any shot inside that distance and up to a certain distance beyond that zero point, should hit within the designated target zone. This largely negates the need for dialing at typical hunting distances. In my opinion, it's most applicable when hunting animals that may require a shot to be taken with some degree of urgency, i.e. a coyote that's not gonna hang around for very long when called in or a group of pigs that are going to run after the first shot is taken. If I don't have time to range and dial for a deer, then I surely don't have time to accurately determine if it's an animal I want to harvest and get a pattern on it's behavior.

Personally, I use a 100 yard zero, given that most of the shots on whitetail that I am presented with are 125 and in. I choose to dial for distances of 150 yards and out rather than use MPBR, because I want to know that the shot is going to land where I place the crosshairs and not just "close enough". Granted, with a 100 yard zero a 25 yard shot is going to be a half inch low, but a half inch is a deviation I am am comfortable with, especially that close.

You think a25yd zero will be ok for a 6.5 with winchester extreme point 125gr for shots out to 200yds thanks for ur help

 

[WB300]

You realize this thread is over 8 years old???

Using crude numbers and JBM, a 25 yard zero will put you 6" high at 200. (Assuming 6.5 Creedmoor).

1-1.5" high at 100 gets you real close to a 200 yard zero if you can't shoot 200 yards to confirm zero at 200.

If you only have access to a 25 yard range, about .8" low at 25 should get you close at 200.

Please don't be THAT guy and only shoot 25 yards, then hunt out to 200 thinking you are OK. That's how animals are wounded. Find a range and shoot 200 to confirm.

And of course... please post pics of your set up. Rifle porn is always appreciated.

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

You think a25yd zero will be ok for a 6.5 with winchester extreme point 125gr for shots out to 200yds thanks for ur help

That’s inch and a half high at 25yds with 6.5 and winchester extreme point 125gr factory Ammo that’s my only range distance I can shoot at this time think it will work or best option for a 25yd zero with the 6.5creedmoor thanks

 

[WB300]

Inch and a half high at 25 yards??? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Where in GA are you located? Several WMA's have ranges. Some are 200 yards. If you don't have a Sportsman license, the GORP pass is only $6 I believe.

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

About a 11/4”high at 25yds with a 6.5

Inch and a half high at 25 yards??? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Where in GA are you located? Several WMA's have ranges. Some are 200 yards. If you don't have a Sportsman license, the GORP pass is only $6 I believ

I had my 6.5 zero dead on at 50yds should take it to 200 miss two different deer opening weekend at 200 not have access to a larger distance at this time so I remember the 308 at 25 was good at 100 r little over is the 6.5 bout right how u think it should be at 25 now I’m one inch high at 25 is that to much at 100 I need help and not have a range to shoot at at this time thanks

 

[deersniper]

Here’s 2 6.5cm drop charts. With 140s. The first is a AIAX with a higher scope height. The second is a Rem 700 with a low scope height.

 

[WB300]

@deersniper Can post a drop chart showing a 200 yard zero and in 25 yard increments? Or better yet, 10 yard increments.. this should give the OP a better understanding of height over bore and trajectory. Assume a 2" scope height over bore.

At 25 yards his hits should be UNDER point of aim... unless his scope over bore is under 1".

 

[WB300]

@Georgiaoutlaw post your location in GA. Plenty of shooters here from GA that may be able to help you in person.

 

[deersniper]

@deersniper Can post a drop chart showing a 200 yard zero and in 25 yard increments? Or better yet, 10 yard increments.. this should give the OP a better understanding of height over bore and trajectory. Assume a 2" scope height over bore.

At 25 yards his hits should be UNDER point of aim... unless his scope over bore is under 1".

Shooter is a free APP lol. Also jbm ballistics is online for free.

140 6.5 at 2700 FPS 2” scope height

 

[shoots100]

Take some responsibility and have some respect for the animals your hunting to be able to kill them cleanly.
Go out and shoot your rifle to know where it actually shoots and don't rely on some computer generated crap to determine your rifle's POI.
All your doing is applying a computer generated guess, which is still a guess until it's confirmed.
This isn't some PRS game.
Maximum Point blank range is just a bunch of black soul advertisement bullshit.

 

[deersniper]

Take some responsibility and have some respect for the animals your hunting to be able to kill them cleanly.
Go out and shoot your rifle to know where it actually shoots and don't rely on some computer generated crap to determine your rifle's POI.
All your doing is applying a computer generated guess, which is still a guess until it's confirmed.
This isn't some PRS game.
Maximum Point blank range is just a bunch of black soul advertisement bullshit.

Lol 200 yards is nothing especially at a deer.

I agree though set some paper or steel up and go shoot.
I use those “computer guesses “ to smoke ground hogs out to 800 yards so I think they are due a little more credit than you are giving them.

 

[deersniper]

If he did zero at 50 then missing at 200 is 100% shooter error unless his scope or rifle system got loose or knocked off zero somehow.

Dryfire more. Know your drops. Get out and shoot paper steel rocks. Something at ranges farther than 50

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

How should a 6.5 shoot at 25yds I’m now 1”high at 25 is that ok 100r more r does it need to shoot low at 25 I’m confused bout this new rith

Here’s 2 6.5cm drop charts. With 140s. The first is a AIAX with a higher scope height. The second is a Rem 700 with a low scope height.

View attachment 7450635View attachment 7450636

anks sir but I’m shooting 125winchester extreme point only I’ve zeroed at 100yds now hitting soda cans water bottles even a flat can of snuff has a 6.5 Bullet hole through it

 

[deersniper]

How should a 6.5 shoot at 25yds I’m now 1”high at 25 is that ok 100r more r does it need to shoot low at 25 I’m confused bout this new rith

anks sir but I’m shooting 125winchester extreme point only I’ve zeroed at 100yds now hitting soda cans water bottles even a flat can of snuff has a 6.5 Bullet hole through it

Here’s a 125 at 2850

1” high at 25 is a terrible zero:

 

[deersniper]

You really need to measure your scope height and muzzle velocity and put them into a online calculator and pick a good zero for you.

Better yet zero dead on or 2” high at 100 and shoot paper at 50, 150, 200 etc and record your drops

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

Y

Take some responsibility and have some respect for the animals your hunting to be able to kill them cleanly.
Go out and shoot your rifle to know where it actually shoots and don't rely on some computer generated crap to determine your rifle's POI.
All your doing is applying a computer generated guess, which is still a guess until it's confirmed.
This isn't some PRS game.
Maximum Point blank range is just a bunch of black soul advertisement bullshit.

es sir lack of a some sort of range to sight my new caliber and rifle in I thought the 25 r 50yd zero would work but I do have a good zero now I’m 1” high at 100yds hitting water bottles and soda cans very well think I’m good for the next deer I get in the crosshairs thank you sir I really try to be responsible hunter now I’m ready to prove it thanks again

 

[Dthomas3523]

Take some responsibility and have some respect for the animals your hunting to be able to kill them cleanly.
Go out and shoot your rifle to know where it actually shoots and don't rely on some computer generated crap to determine your rifle's POI.
All your doing is applying a computer generated guess, which is still a guess until it's confirmed.
This isn't some PRS game.
Maximum Point blank range is just a bunch of black soul advertisement bullshit.

People have been using maximum point blank to shoot people and animals for a very long time.

If you true your calculator, it will work just fine for hunting as far as you feel you can make an ethical shot.

In closing, I’m going to respond in kind the way you did:

Shut the fuck up about shit you don’t understand.

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

Take some responsibility and have some respect for the animals your hunting to be able to kill them cleanly.
Go out and shoot your rifle to know where it actually shoots and don't rely on some computer generated crap to determine your rifle's POI.
All your doing is applying a computer generated guess, which is still a guess until it's confirmed.
This isn't some PRS game.
Maximum Point blank range is just a bunch of black soul advertisement bullshit.

I do agree I’ve now went to my cousins property and zeroed 1” high at 100yards hitting soda cans water bottles and a snuff can without an issue

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

That was an very ugly response and I never said a negative comment about zeroing a rifle and caliber I knew nothing about until I got one now I’m zero for a hundred yards shouldn’t have another problem going forward thanks to all that helped me with this new rifle and caliber much appreciated guys

 

[deersniper]

That was an very ugly response and I never said a negative comment about zeroing a rifle and caliber I knew nothing about until I got one now I’m zero for a hundred yards shouldn’t have another problem going forward thanks to all that helped me with this new rifle and caliber much appreciated guys

Dthomas wasnt talking to you he was responding to the guy saying the maximum point blank zero tool doesn’t work.




1” high at 100 should work well for you.

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

Nota problem all is good my 6.5 is ready to have a deer in the crosshairs let ya no here how it goes wen I do hunt on

 

[krw]

When I was a kid, motor oil came in qt cans. My Dad would put up an empty oil can, shoot it at a roughly 100yds (somewhere between 80-120) with his iron sited 740 30-06 and call it good. My how things have changed
Ohh, 1 yr he would shoot Winchester, next mayb Federal, and shoot few Remingtons in between. Alternate randomly 150-180gr bullets too

 

[Georgiaoutlaw]

Sounds like u grew up same as me shooting bottles floating dwn the creek

 

[Cjt1983]

100 yards dial for anything further

 

[shoots100]

People have been using maximum point blank to shoot people and animals for a very long time.

If you true your calculator, it will work just fine for hunting as far as you feel you can make an ethical shot.

In closing, I’m going to respond in kind the way you did:

Shut the fuck up about shit you don’t understand.

Go to Africa and tell your PH that you don't need to sight in your rifle, because the computer confirmed that the maximum point blank range calculation is correct ?
You'll get a better understanding, while he's taking you to the range to confirm you and your rifle are squared away, or your not going hunting.
Computers are a guide, you still need to confirm the calculations are correct.
If you don't understand that, then I feel sorry for you and the game your hunting.