RL-15 178AMAX RD4 even more pics

swarrick

swarrick

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 12, 2006
638
6
Piney Woods of East Texas
#1
Started a new load workup today with RL-15 and 178gr Amax's loaded .005 off of lands, Win brass and 210 primers. I shot 5rd groups starting with 42.8, 43.0, 43.5, 43.7, and 44.0. As you can see below the 42.8 group and 44.0 group were decent but 43.5 and 43.7 SUCK, what causes this gap? Also all these loads are OVER published loads, but I have NO signs of pressure. Can somebody out there plug this into a program and tell me what the velocity and pressure curve looks like.

Should I try to go 42.0, 42.5, what can I do to shrink my groups up some. I am going to go back to the range in the morning or this evening and push out to 300 and see if these loads tighten up stay the same or spread out.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> </span> ALL DOTS 1 INCH
RL-15178Amax001.jpg


RL-15178Amax002.jpg


RL-15178Amax003.jpg


RL-15178Amax004.jpg
 
#4
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Do you have the opportunity to try these loads at extended ranges? I'd be interested in knowing if they "go to sleep" and thus tighten up at 250-500 yards.

My rifle likes 43.1 grains of RL-15 under 175 SMKs and 178 AMAXs.
 
#5
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

43.5 and 44.0 are the best looking to me. Powder does vertical, the nut behind the trigger does the horizontal.

Actually, looking closer I'd try a bigger sample at 43.6-do a ten shot group or so.
 
#6
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

my thoughts are the 42.8 show the most promise...the vertical spread tells me the powder charge was not real consistent....me thinks a clean cold bore shot with 42.5 ought tighten the groups up......but i would play this game with a chrono.....
 
#7
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: swarrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Started a new load workup today with RL-15 and 178gr Amax's loaded .005 off of lands, Win brass and 210 primers. I shot 5rd groups starting with 42.8, 43.0, 43.5, 43.7, and 44.0. As you can see below the 42.8 group and 44.0 group were decent but 43.5 and 43.7 SUCK, what causes this gap? Also all these loads are OVER published loads, but I have NO signs of pressure. Can somebody out there plug this into a program and tell me what the velocity and pressure curve looks like.

Should I try to go 42.0, 42.5, what can I do to shrink my groups up some. I am going to go back to the range in the morning or this evening and push out to 300 and see if these loads tighten up stay the same or spread out.</div></div>

swarrick,

You are nowhere's near to high pressure loads. The reason some of your groups SUCK, is because you are using Winchester brass (light weight with large case capacity), and your loads are low pressure loads. Using Hornady Match brass (like Winchester with a large case capacity), I used 46.5gr of RL15 with the 178gr Amax for a velocity of 2750fps and a .5MOA group. RL15 does it's best work at high pressure.

Don
 
#8
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Queequeg I am going to stretch it out to 300yards in the morning.

Soberbiker I am going to run a larger test group in the morning. I also will keep and eye on the horizontal.

Boltripper I threw every charge to the tenth, but I will keep an eye on it tonight and Yes I am using a Chrono and will post the speeds tomorrow.

USSR- I have always used Win brass with no bad effects. I want to try some higher pressure loads but I am already way over the published data. I will push it some more to see if the groups shrink up a bit.
 
#9
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USSR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...RL15 does it's best work at high pressure.Don</div></div>

I have been shooting a quite a bit with this powder and I think this is a correct statement. I think you would end up around 44.0gr's and I would try seating to 2.810 just to see.
 
#10
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

swarrick,

Don't know where you're getting your "published load data" from, but Alliant lists 45.0gr of their RL15 with an 180gr bullet in IMI brass. IMI brass is heavy with a small case capacity similar to Lake City. With your Winchester brass, you should be atleast somewhere between 45.0 and 46.0gr.

Don
 
#11
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

USSR look at Sierra and Hornday load manuals that is where I get my "published load data"! You are correct that the Alliant web page does list a Speer SP 180gr at a max of 45.0 in IMI case. I am going to shoot/chrono the 42.8 44.0 again in the morning and see how they act out at 300, if they shoot good then I have found what I need. If they don't then I will push it up to 45.0gr in 2gr test groups. I will Post groups in the AM.
 
#13
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Here are the result from this morning. Groups at 300 yards. I shot one group of 5rds 0f 42.8 waited 5min and shot a group of 44.0 waited 5 min and shot another group of 42.8 5min then the last group of 44.0.

The 42.8 gr held less tham MOA at 300 but the vertical on group two killed me. The Chrono put 42.8 at a high fps of 2629 and a low of 2588 3 of the 10 rds were 2604.

The 44.0 did not hold togather at 300 but, the chrono showed a high of 2704 and a low of 2656 and 4 of the 10 at 2688.

The 42.8 shows promise but I do not like the speed I am getting. So I am going to try 44.4 and 44.8 if they hold togather at 300 then I will try them out to 600.

1st 42.8 5rd group at 300 yards.
300yards009.jpg


2nd 42.8 5rd group at 300 yards.
300yards010.jpg


1st 44.0 5rd group at 300 yards.
300yards012.jpg


2nd 44.0 5rd group at 300 yards.
300yards011.jpg
 
#15
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Get some Varget and give it a try. Getting about 2700fps and excellent accuracy with it and the 178 AMAX.

Does the rifle do any better with any other loads? What rifle is it?
 
#16
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Statistically, 3 shot groups are too small to tell any difference.

What power scope are you using?
What is the reticle on the scope?
What is the weight of your trigger pull?
What is the variation in the weight of your brass?
Is there any wind?

Until you remove ALL other variables that affect your point of point of impact, you aren't going to be able to tell much from 3 shot groups.

Just off the top of my head, you would need probably a 20-30 shot group to be able to tell statistically a 10% difference in accuracy.

The easier way to do it is with a ladder. It's been described by several other people but basically as Sobrbiker883 described, the horizontal spread is usually related to wind or the shooter. So if there is no wind, and the horizontal aspect is removed, all you would have to do is shoot one round per charge and you would develop a vertical string. Where the string clusters is the 'sweet spot'. Basically it means the rifle tolerates minor differences in charges at that charge. You have to be diligent about documenting each round's impact so you know where that sweet spot is.

Otherwise you need to shoot larger groups to really tell.

The easiest way to tell your pressure is bolt lift. Primer appearence is trickier but also a sign.

If your load density is anything less than 100% or compressed the characteristics of the powder burn and the pressure curve can change depending on how the powder lays in the case. So go through the same routine every time you load. Whether the powder lays mostly in the baok or front doesn't matter as much as it is consistant.
 
#17
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

It is NOT the Rifle, I am shooting my MAK that was built by HATECA, the trigger is around 2lbs.

ROB01 if I could get my hands on Varget I would not be doing any of this. My prior load was 43.0 of Varget under a 175SMK. It shot less than 1 MOA all the way to 600.

RCR- those are 5rd groups not 3rds. I do not weigh cases I am NOT a bench rest shooter, 20-30rd groups may be correct but totally unfeasible especially with the cost and availability of components. I fail to see what the reticle has to do with my groups but for arguments sake it is a SSx10 MilDot. Yes I wish I had better glass, Yes it is near impossible to see .308 holes at 300 and Yes the reticle covers a 2inch dot at 300 but the fixed 10 will have to do for now. I am saving and scamming as much as I can to upgrade the optics to a night-force or USO. There was a minor wind today on the last 44.0gr group but the 44.0gr group before that also has a horizontal spread with NO wind. I shoot off a back pack with a rear bag, that maybe some of the horizontal, but that would not explain why the 42.8 shoot much better shooting the same way off a back pack. I did notice that the primers are FLAT but no other signs of pressure so I am going to shoot a couple groups at 44.4 and 44.8 in the morning.

I am not trying to be shitty with anybody I am just pissed that I am having to do load devlopment again due to shortage of components.

Bypods are not on the rifle any longer.
004.jpg

MakTube8.jpg
 
#18
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

I'll just throw this out there. I found a good load for a 243 AI using Fed LR primers. I then tried the same load and the ONLY thing I changes was the primer to Wolf LR. Groups got better and I thought I was crazy. Loaded another ten rounds with Fed and ten with Wolf primes - same results, Wolf tighter and more round. I get under 1/2 MOA consistenly (some getting close to 1/4 MOA).
 
#19
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Swarrick,

I wasn't trying to be shitty either, just trying to help.

The gist of my comments were that load development is futile until you remove all the other variables that effect the group. Sometimes circumstances, won't allow you to remove the variables so you just have to minimize them. Sometimes even minimizing them is still not enough to tell the differences in how the load effects your accuracy.

If the reticle is too course you can't reproduce your crosshair placement as easily. Try some different target shapes. You can print from the internet even. Try boxes and putting your cross hair on the corner or something to that effect.
 
#20
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

RCR- I will give that target idea a try. At 300 my crosshair covers a 2inch dot and I can barley see a 3inch dot under it. I went to the range this morning but the wind was nasty so it was a no go for load development.
 
#21
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

USpalma.com and mytargets.com has some that are downloadable.

You just have to try a couple different ones and see which make it easier to tell EXACTLY where the crosshair is in relation to the target. The targest that have squares or boxes or grids seem to be the easiest for me because then I have both vertical and horizontal references.

If you don't have your bipod anymore and want something more steady than your backpack, put some 2x4s or whatever size lumber you need into a block the size of a shoe box and use it as your front rest. Drill a little hold for your swivel stud if you need to and pad it with carpet or cloth or whatever. It'll be more steady than your rucksack.
 
#22
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Here is Round 3, good weather no wind, SO at this point it is my dumbass I guess. I started with a 10rd group of 44.4, no pressure signs, not much recoil, felt good but the target tells the tell. Shot another 10rd groups of 44.8, this charge shot the best so fare, and I am SURE that I screwed the pooch on at least one shot. I do have one question, the only thing I changed other than the charge was I went from 210's to 210M's. At a charge of 43.0 with the 210's I was flatting primers at 44.0 with 210's I was smashing the shit out of them. BUT with the 210M's at a charge of 44.4 and 44.8 there was NO flatting at all. What would cause this, are 210's that much different than 210M's?

RCR- I am having a problem ensuring that my point of aim is the same each time. With a 10X I can hit the target all day long but I cannot see much other than my crosshair covering the 2inch dot, once it disappears under my retical I squeeze the go button. So thanks for the suggestion I will give it a try and see if it helps.

I am going to reshoot the 44.8 and load up some 45.0 and possibly 45.2 and try again.

Here is the 44.4 group.
rl15rd3027.jpg


Here is the 44.8 group.
rl15rd3026.jpg
 
#23
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

If your reticule is hindering your view, instead of using a "dot" reference at 300+...use crosses atleast 6-8". This should help with your reticule blocking view.

Good luck til you get your new scope
 
#24
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spot69221</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USSR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...RL15 does it's best work at high pressure.Don</div></div>

I have been shooting a quite a bit with this powder and I think this is a correct statement. I think you would end up around 44.0gr's and I would try seating to 2.810 just to see. </div></div>

I second that. I think you might be just a little too close to the lands. Let the .308 jump a little and try again. Once you find something that seems to have promise you can mess with the seating depth if you want but I like to keep it as close as I can to factory OAL.

Your scope is your biggest handicap at the moment. For long shots or low power scopes I use a 45 degree angle of the paper target or some other angle to focus and aim on. Trying to hold on a spot you can't see every time is not going to help your confidence any and it will leave you wondering what the hell is going on when in reality there is nothing going on other then a bad POA with a low power scope. 10x is great for shooting two legged animals but sucks for shooting really small groups.
 
#25
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

HATECA you built this rifle so you should know. I will seat the rounds deeper in the case so there is more of a jump and push the charge to 45.0. (Plug for R&D) this rifle is awesome and it does shoot fucking badass groups when I do my part. I do think at this point that my POA is what I am screwing up. The 44.8 load is not bad and can be refined more. As JustaGusto (HAHA funny name)said I am going to switch up targets and try some type of cross or "X" that I can see threw my SS10X better. I am going to try and get to the range Thurs or Fri morning. Stay tuned for updates........
 
#26
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get some Varget and give it a try. Getting about 2700fps and excellent accuracy with it and the 178 AMAX.

Does the rifle do any better with any other loads? What rifle is it? </div></div>

I'd second the Varget, but as you say shit is hard to find nowadays and sometimes ya gotta make do with what you got.

Here's what's worked for ME:

LC Match Brass
175 SKM
CCI BR2
44.0gr Varget
COAL: 2.800 (yes I'm jumping them, whoodathunkit)
ES:24
SD:7
 
#30
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

They should be really close as my 175 and 178 loads gave almost identical velocities with identical powder charges of Varget.
 
#31
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Here is what I have loaded up for Friday morning. I took HateCa and my Neighbors advise and backed the bullet off the lands and took the C.O.L to 2.810. I have three loads to try in the AM one is 44.8, this shot ok last time so I am going to give it another try at the new length. 45.0 this should tighten up we will see and 43.5 with the C.O.L at 2.810 this time around. The 43.5 at 2.810 should be close to my 175SMK load that shoots good in this rifle. I have also acquired some new targets that should help with the POA problem. Hope next time I post this is all solved.
 
#34
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Try 42.0 of RL15 I know it is slow but shoots good in all of my 308 rifles. I use 42.0 with 168 right at 2600 fps 24" barrel and with 178 amax is running 2580 in 24" tube. I also use same load with 150 flat base match bullets only going 2450 out of 20" 40X 42.0 just seems to be sweet spot in all my rifles with any bullet. ES is around 20 fps with all bullets CCI or FED primers.
 
#35
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Remy 700SPS Tac 308 20inch BBL-Burris XTR 3-12x50 IR BMildot-EGW20moa base, Warne Maxima quickrelease 30mm rings-Harris bipod
43.3 Grains of RE15
Lapua Brass trimmed to 2.05
CCI 200
168gr AMAX
COAL-2.820
Neck Sized only

This load is sub in my rifle out to 400yds. Trigger control, trigger control, trigger control cant stress it enough.
 
#36
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

This is some load testing I did a while back. It doesn't relate to your RE15 question except to whow the relationship of Varget to RE15 when I tested the 190's. I left the 175 and 178 info here just to show the relationship of 4064 to Varget. I've since started loading everything including 178's to 2.81 and am getting better results than chasing 15 thou off the lands.

175SMK
44.9 grains Varget, BR2
M=2815, E=31, S=12

175SMK
43.6 grains 4064, 210M
M=2765, E=22, S=8

190SMK
<span style="font-weight: bold">43.8 grains Varget, BR2</span>
M=2688, E=19, S=7
Same load at 80 degrees
M=2719, E=29, S=11

190SMK
<span style="font-weight: bold">44 grains RE15, 210M</span>
M=2731, E=10, S=4
Same load at 80 degrees
M=2781, E=19, S=6

190SMK
<span style="font-weight: bold">44.7 grains RE15, 210M, Shot at 80 degrees</span>
M=2794, E=22, S=6

178 Amax
44.9 grains Varget, BR2
M=2776, E=12, S=4

178 Amax
43.6 grains 4064, 210M
M=2730, E=16, S=6
 
#37
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS

Update the 44.8 load seams to hold togather then fall apart every other string. I am sure at this point it is all my POA, but I also chronoed today and they seam a tad slow to me for being such a high charge of RL-15, I was seeing speeds of 2660 +/- 10FPS. I am going to try 42.8 in the morning if the wind is not blowing to hard and see if it tightens up maybe my tube just likes them a little slower.
 
#38
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS RD4

Here is from this morning, I am so FUCKING frustrated I am about to take up basket weaving. I got there this morning 2-3 mph wind no value somewhere in the mid 80's with in an hour it got hotter and the wind died to nothing. I shot until I could no longer make out the 1inch square @200 due to the mirages. I am still using the 10X but I did start using bipods even though as of now I do not really like it over shooting off a pack. The first two groups are 42.8 with a COL of 2.815, The third group was shot yesterday in the wind blowing 10-15mph from 9-3 oclock full value and is 44.8 with a COL of 2.810. I did have to change primmers from 210M's to BR2's. Any help or suggestions from ANYONE hell I am willing to try almost anything at this point OR should I just load up more 42.8/44.8 and live with that?

0052.jpg

0062.jpg


Here is the 44.8 @ 2.810 C.O.L shot in the wind.
0072.jpg
 
#39
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS RD4

Im just a normal guy and not a 1/4 moa shooter... but those look like very practical 200 yard 3/4 moa groups to me. Nothing to be ashamed of at all. Hell... if I could turn a 7 shot 3/4 moa group everytime I pulled the trigger I would be a very happy man! But I am human and not a long range precision machine like some guys on here.

Id say load up some more 44.8 and go out ONLY with those loads... fresh, open mind, and take your time. I might even try dry firing in between each shoot to double check my Natural Point of Aim.

Also....I find If I have too many loads to test I start getting frustrated and in a hurry and end up wasting time, energy, and components.

Do you have access to a nice rifle rest? Try locking that rifle down in a vise to take the human factor out of it. Tell me to FO if you want, but .... it makes no sense in testing the load, rifle, and yourself at the same time.
 
#40
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS RD4

Ren-

Thank you for the complements, 3/4 MOA is not horrible and it will get the job done most of the time. I am looking for 1/2 MOA and consistency more than anything. You are correct about to many different loads and getting frustrated, that is why I am either going to go 42.8 or 44.8 unless someone can make a good case to do something else.
 
#42
Re: RL-15 178AMAX with PICS RD4

Do you have a big jug of RE15 to burn up?
I would switch powders.
I've had great luck with IMR-4064 in 18-85 degree weather with the 175-178's.
 
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