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Rifle Scopes S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

GunjunkieM24

GunjunkieM24

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 22, 2009
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Monahans Tx
Folks,

I am contemplating the purchase of a new S&B 5 x 25 PMII.

I have a USO SN3 and several Leupold MK 4's. I will say that the USO does edge out the MK 4's in clarity but neither just are not as clear as I want. I really want to try one of the S&B's but just cant seem to bring myself to drop the dough...mainly because I have not had the opportunity to look through one.

My question is this...need honesty guys...Is the S&B that much better than the MK4 , NF, and USO offerings or is their popularity more due to the options that they have versus competitors? My eyes are not as good as they once were and I have been doing a lot of shooting out to 800 yards. I will say that my binoculars are Swarovski and would not trade them for any other brand out there....To me, they were the "end all" for binocs. I looked at just about every brand out there before I pulled the trigger on them but for me, nothing comes close on clarity. I just have not found that "warm fuzzy" feeling with any of the rifle optics listed above, ( or the swarovski scopes for that matter ) that were on par to these binocs. I have been told that the S&B "are that good" but I do not have any vendor close that I can go to to see what they really offer in clarity versus others.

If you own or use one of these scopes and have had the chance to compare them, your honest opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Gunjunkiem24
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Sorry Mods...just realized that I posted this in the rifle section rather than the optics section. Not sure how to move it........
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Are you serious that you cant see a difference between USO and leupold? Look through a Hensoldt.. To me a Schmidt and USO is almost the same.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Dead serious....

I have 3 MK 4's and a USO that is about 3 years old....not saying they are the same, but for me...not a huge diff.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I dont think you will notice any difference in a Schmidt at all..
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nolo263</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I dont think you will notice any difference in a Schmidt at all.. </div></div>


You'll re-open up a big can of worms that has been hashed out over and over again. I noticed what I felt was a significant difference between S&B and USO. The big question is, "Is it worth the money"? That's a question that only you can answer for yourself. For me it was. I've had Leupys (MKIV's and VXIII's not ET), NF, IOR, USO and S&B along with Bushnell, Nikon and others. I will put them in order starting with the best glass. I would start with S&B and Premier then IOR and USO followed by NF and finally Leupy. Again this is my opinion of scopes that I owned.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Thanks,

The money is a concern but not a limiting factor. Just wanting some feedback from guys that own or use them. I appreciate your input....wasnt trying to open a can of worms...hope I dont/didnt.

At the end of the day, my Lupys and my USO are just not quite what I want in clarity, mainly wanted to know if there was a better optic out there in the S&B....
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I have Leupold, Nightforce and S&B. I went with S&B b/c I wanted mil/mil knobs/reticle. No others at the time offered it. As far as glass goes, I honestly can't tell the difference b/t Nightforce and S&B. YMMV.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

When weather conditions are perfectly clear and bright..I can't tell a big difference with all listed scopes,, However..S&B, Zeiss & USO really make a difference TO ME when it is darker and hazy out. If you can't see much of a diierence with your eyes..why spend the extra Cash on a S&B?
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Tburkes,
Thanks for the heads up on the scope party. That is exactly what I need but cant make it to Alvin this weekend...I really appreciate the offer.


Chrisj,
The only reason i was considering the S&B is because I have not found a scope that I am completely happy with yet. My others get the job done, just not as clear as I would like.

Thanks for the help guys,
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I have owned a Leupy MK 4 and went to a S&B 5x25 PM MK II. When initially looking through them they may appear the same. But a S&B is slightly superior in color shading and also there is a huge difference in low light capability. At dusk and beyond a S&B is far superior to any Leupy I have ever had. The question then becomes is this worth the extra money? Do you want the capability to shoot in poor light conditions? Although I rarely shoot in poor lighting I WANT that capability. I admit I could have lived happily with my Leupold until I saw the low light capability of a S&B. Do you want to invest 3X the price??

Johnny
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Experts correct me if Im wrong but if your using your Binos as a benchmark against what you expect from a high end scope you may be heading down the wrong path. S&B, Hendsholt, USO, PH all scopes that are like trying to compare the top 5 Grand Prix cars. In my mind it would take a world class driver to tell the difference between them. My eyes could not see a difference between my USO SN3 Canadian and my S&B PMII. If I had the decades behind a rifle in every condition some here have, then maybe I could. I honestly believe that any of the 4 mentioned would make zero difference to my ability but I sure would be happy with any of them on my rifle. Currently a S&B sits on my rifle. If I could afford another scope for one that is Nakid right now Id like to try a Hendsholt but if a deal for any of the others came up.....
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Whare does the Premier fit in also?
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Experts correct me if Im wrong but if your using your Binos as a benchmark against what you expect from a high end scope you may be heading down the wrong path. </div></div>

This is absolutely correct. Riflescopes have completely different design objectives. It can be a good indication of the quality of product a company produces, but direct comparisons are apples to oranges.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunjunkieM24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only reason i was considering the S&B is because I have not found a scope that I am completely happy with yet. My others get the job done, just not as clear as I would like.</div></div>
Since you have not been happy yet, the old statement "buy once, cry once" applies very well here.

Just go get a S&B or Premier and be done with it. You will be very happy you did for most of the reasons already stated in this thread.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

If you have the cash, buy the best. They you will never have to wonder if it's "better".

If you don't and you are not happy with your current equipment then you will always have the doubt in your mind.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I have owner or own scopes from all of the top makers and they all are great performers. There is not a significant difference in clarity or low light capability (given similar size objective lenses) between USO and S&B IMO. They are both fantastic scopes - different in their own way, but fantastic nevertheless.

Once you start using high end optics you will discover that they are generally all of very high quality and durability- it comes down to other issues - weight/size issues, if you want a custom reticle, etc. Even when you have "the ultimate" scope, you will wish it had some features from its competitors...i.e. "I wish I could have S&B clarity with Hensoldt eye relief or durability of USO with the weight of NF, etc".

Personally, I would love to get Hensoldt and S&B at NF or Leupy prices.
smile.gif


SCL
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Also, instead of just the view through the scope, you should consider other options that different scope manufacturers have that you want in your scope.

Features to considers would be, in no particular order:

1. Type of reticle
2. If you want an illuminated reticle that may have a bearing on the reticle you choose.
3 Type of elevation and windage adjustment click values.
4. style of adjustment knobs, single turn, double turn, EREK, etc.
5. Front Focal Plane, Second Focal Plane

There are others but you get the idea. You don't want to buy a scope with a great piece of glass only to decide later that you wish you had chosen another brand because you like it's features over the one you're now stuck with.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Thanks for all of the info guys.

Couple of comments:

As I stated earlier, the USO does "edge out" the Leupolds in my mind for clarity and it is built like a tank. I am OK with it....just want something with a little more clarity or "POP" on the finer details in low light and long distances. I realize full well that the binocs are not an apples to apples comparison but it was the closest thing I had to compare with. I have looked through a lot of binocs and spotters that did well but when I looked through the Sworovski's, I knew they were the ones I wanted....didnt really care if there were others that were more or less expensive....less expensive is aways good only if you get the quality you are looking for.

I have no intention in dragging it around the world shooting at bad guys, that ship has sailed for me. I am looking for a scope that gives me the clarity that I have found in the binocs that i have...thats it. As I said above, Leupy and USO just has not given me that clarity I am looking for. I do shoot intermediate to long range, usually at intermediate distances ( 300 - 800 yards ) and want something that is crystal clear. I am not one to scrimp on money as most of my weapons are 2K plus and some are stupid expensive. I have no problem with the price or I wouldnt even consider it...I just like the features and wanted some honest opinions about the clarity of the S&B compared to the USO , NF and other top shelf optics. I am not familiar with Hedsoldt but I appreciate the info, I will look into them.

Once again,
I appreciate the help and comments,

Regards,
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

You realy need to look at the Zeiss 6-24x72 given your primary feature is clarity and resolution.Hendsolt(Zeiss military division) also makes a version of it.If your not shooting tac matches or have a real need for the FFP reticle the Zeiss would be gtg.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I agree with much of what nolo says. If you want an optic that "pops", I suggest that you try a Hensoldt. If possible, check out someone else's USO, Premier, S&B and Hensoldt at your local range or take a trip to a match - it will be worth the trip to get what you want.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

If you choose the 5-25 S&B you wont regret it...I have two, one is on a .308, the other is on a .338LM. They have worked well for me under severe hunting conditions here in Montana, From negative 40 in the winter to 100+F in the summer they have never let me down.

I would try to find someone in your area that has one and have a look at and through it. Optically IMO they are as good as anything out there.

Good luck in your choice.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I have liquidated all my Leupolds: They don't all track, and a scope that doesn't track properly is useless to me. That, and I hate their knobs - MOA only and less than positive in their adjustment. Leupolds have become over-priced, outdated, and under-built.

But I use Super Sniper, SB, USO, and NF side-by-side all the time. Nothing too wrong with either one, really.

But for my money, when I have the money, it's still SB. They track. They are durable. They have the CCW single turn knobs that I like. Their range numbers on the focus/parallax knob actually mean something. And the glass/color rendition is superb. They are also a very durable scope without being too long, too heavy, or unecessarily bulky: a top notch all-around package. When I am in for long periods of looking through the glass, like when I take a week-long course, I draw the SB every time.

But when I don't have the money it's NF. Because my NFs track, they take a beating, and I can see through them just fine.

Reticle is a matter of personal choice. Here again I like SB because I love the Klein, like the Gen II at 12x and because it makes it easy to parse the Mil, and I can live with the still excellent P4 or P3. I also like the NF MLR: it's simple and easy to use. But USO has sone great reticle choices, too.

For you it might come down to two things: how much you use your scope, and whether you are concerned about resale opportunity and resale value. Pick a high-end scope you can live with for a few years, and one that will keep its value if you change your mind and want or need to re-sell it.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I'm like Lowlight, I consider scopes as tools, pick the right tool for the job, or the one you can afford to get the job done
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

My honest experience:

I had 3 S&B scopes that were on my hunting rifles - loved them all. Ordered a SN-3 from US Optics for a new GAP .308 that is being built for me.

Waited for my SN-3 to arrive and when it did, I was very disappointed. To my eyes the clarity was not even in the same ballpark as my S&B scopes. It was built like a tank, but to me, the glass was lacking compared to my S&B's. I sold the SN-3 and ordered another S&B PM II scope.

I think that everyones eyes are different. What is clear to you, may be a little distorted to me. Look through as many different scopes as you can. When you find the one that best works for you, go with it and don't look back!!

Scopes such as S&B, Nightforce, Zeiss, Hensoldt and US Optics are all very well made scopes, just find the one that best works for you - Good Luck!!
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Thanks Buckey,

I wish I knew someone close or even a vendor that was within 4-5 hours from me and I would go look through one....

Thanks for the info. I love my SN3 but like you, i was a little disappointed in the clarity for what i paid for it. I love the scope, just not quite what I want...
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I don't own a S&B, but I have used 56mm objective versions in the past, and they're pretty decent.

I currently own an old leupold in 4.5x10x50 TMR, and it tracks well and it decent on clarity. Of course, it's a low magnification scope... so it should be decent.

I also picked up an IOR 6x24x50 MP-8 dot, and I like th glass a little bit better than the Leupold 8x25x50 I was previously playing with. I suspect this is because the tube is 35mm...

What I'm not as happy with are the 50mm scopes when dialed into high magnification. I've never had one of the NF scopes (56mm) in my hands, but the S&B was pretty darned clean and I don't recall the loss of light anywhere near as much as on the 50mm scopes [Leupold, IOR, Nikon].

Right now I sorta a stand against Leupold as the whole China connection has entered the picture.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Wish I could...Houston is about 8 hours away for me..

I have two barrels to chamber this weekend anyway but thanks for the help.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupol

Just have a chance to compare SB and USO. I take pics with same speed and f-stop.

5c4c24bc9c9009edc0998fba83cd1dba.gif
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupol

Something doesn't look right with those pictures. Why is the SN3 reticle so small? At less than 17x it would disappear.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunjunkieM24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Buckey,

I wish I knew someone close or even a vendor that was within 4-5 hours from me and I would go look through one....

Thanks for the info. I love my SN3 but like you, i was a little disappointed in the clarity for what i paid for it. I love the scope, just not quite what I want... </div></div>

How far are you from Laredo Texas? We have all of the scopes mentioned here in the Store..

USO
S&B
Hensoldt
IOR
Nightforce
Leupold
and a bunch more to compare too.. I think we still have a Premier also..
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

That would be an entertaining afternoon. Should really be able to see the differences when comparing them side by side in the same conditions.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

We usually have a bunch of cool shit in the store. People that have come from San Antonio and the Valley usually freak out at all the cool shit in the store..
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Next time I run down to Lackland, I guess I'll be stopping by the store!

-smile-
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Nolo,

I may have to take a road trip....

I live 40/60 miles due west of Odessa / Midland Tx on Interstate 20. I travel to the Sonora / Ozona / El Dorado area pretty frequently. May have to take a few more hours and come see you next month.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

Take a real good look at IOR, their glass is very clear & sharp for much less than S&B or Hensoldt. If money is no object, then stick with them. However, I have 2 IOR's and both have super nice glass, I would say just as good as my buddies S&B which cost just twice as much!
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I am fortunate to work with optics every day and it just so happens I completed an evaluation of an SN3 vs a PMII yesterday. I'm not going to get into any details other than to say this; based on the eval I completed yesterday and previous experience with numerous other scopes from both makers, you won't be stepping up to go from a USO to a PMII when we're talking about optical quality alone.

Look at the features you want in a scope then decide.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greentimber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you won't be stepping up to go from a USO to a PMII when we're talking about optical quality alone.

</div></div>

As it has been said before glass alone doesn't make a scope.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

I had a S&B short dot Gen.I and I have seen a diff when I take the first look the the NXS 1-4x
I sold my S&B short dot and get the NXS 1-4x
the diff;short dot not clear as NXS also not bright as NXS
but some people tells me that was happen about the 1st Gen of short dot,because the blue view on short dot was on the 1st Gen for use with NODs
newer short dot LE Gen II will be better,maybe
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As it has been said before glass alone doesn't make a scope. </div></div>


Yep. Look at the features of the scopes in your consideration set and decide what is best for your type of shooting.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupold ET

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: greentimber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you won't be stepping up to go from a USO to a PMII when we're talking about optical quality alone.

</div></div>

As it has been said before glass alone doesn't make a scope. </div></div>

100% agree on this. There may be better glass quality out there but for me USO's custom options and customer service cannot be challenged by anyone, period, end of story.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupol

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunjunkieM24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nolo,

I may have to take a road trip....

I live 40/60 miles due west of Odessa / Midland Tx on Interstate 20. I travel to the Sonora / Ozona / El Dorado area pretty frequently. May have to take a few more hours and come see you next month.</div></div>

If you're in the San Antonio area and simply wanted to get to look through a couple of S&B's and a Premier vs USO, shoot me a PM a few days before your trip and we can see about meeting up. With two things in mind, though: First, I would submit that just as some of the other guys have said, some of the scopes you've been considering aren't just "the best" because of glass quality, but a lot of other qualities in the scope durability, adjustments, reticles, etc, and so it may not be a bad idea to look at some of the other brands (swarovski, hendsoldt, etc) in your comparison if that is your highest priority deciding factor. Second, you're welcome to come look...but if you're lookin' to go home with one you should head to Laredo
grin.gif
Hell, if you're going down to look in Laredo, I might ask to tag along.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupol

Here is another bit of info to keep in mind.

Often glass clarity looks very similar in broad daylight when you have some mirage. They look VASTLY different at night or in low light with no mirage.

I have cheap scopes that are fine for punching paper on a 90*F sunny day, but are absolutely useless after dusk.

I am far from an expert in quality glass, but I took my USO out last night to check the clarity at night and was amazed even at high magnification. I wish I had the cash to buy a S&B, Premier and Hendsolt to compare.
 
Re: S& B Info...Glass comparison versus USO Leupol

to the OP: Im from Odessa and I took a day trip to tacpro in Mingus and I looked through the 5-25x56 freaking awesome glass. I am trying to save a little scratch to either buy a PH or the schmidt. (btw I have an NXS now and I like it a whole lot but like you, I want a little more clarity)
 
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