Rifle Scopes S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!

[AnschutzNerd]

I happened upon the 3-27x and that stopped me in my tracks as I'm starting to read up on the 3-20x.

3-27x56 PM?II High Power

Any ideas on availability or info from S&B about this new optic? Lots of good options these days.

Nerd

 

[Dogtown]

Yeah, the 3-27x and 5-20x are up there now, but don't expect either until later this year at the soonest. What piqued my interest is the part about the 3-27x being the "first model of the new PM II High Power series." I'd love to a new PMII with a max magnification in the 30-35x range with 30+ mils elevation (or at a minimum retaining the 26mils of the 5-25x).

 

[Starbuck]

What is the MSRP?

 

[Dogtown]

It's supposed to be pretty high, in the USD$5k range.

 

[SNIPERS4DUMMIES]

It's supposed to be pretty high, in the USD$5k range.

Tell me you're joking?? If that doesn't include an option for gen 3 night-vision use...clicks the ((pass)) button

 

[Jerry R]

MSRP is $5,559.00 and is expected as a fall 2013 release. There will be an optional 36 mil elevation knob if you need it.
Also, if you've ever looked through one of these you would quickly realize that 30-35x magnification is simply not needed for the optics intended purpose.

The 3-27x56 PMII High Power was in hard use by our countrys most respected for two + years before anyone in the civilian sector even knew they existed and without any major issues. You will be getting a more than proven piece of gear but it may simply not be for everyone.

Reactions at SHOT to the price were either "No way!" or "When can I get one?". Not much in the grey area between the two.

 

[Dogtown]

The only reason I bring up the 30-35x range is, going off the 5-25x gold standard, we are shooting accurately at farther distances than we were ten to twelve years ago. And while magnification isn't the most important parameter in that equation, going from 25x to 27x is a hardly noticeable difference. Still, I'll take a 36mil option any day of the week

 

[Jerry R]

No, trust me on this. There is a difference in 25x and 27x and it is far more than just an extra 2x magnification.

You must also consider that the lens system and overall optical design on the 3-27x56 is about 10 years newer than the 5-25 and anyone in tune knows that the optics industry has advanced quite a bit in the past 10 years or so.

This optic was specifically designed by a special request and need for a huge FOV at low power and a high power with extreme clarity for long range observation. These are conditions for which most people who are reading this will never buy an optic. One or the other is usually the deciding factor.
While offering a 9x magnification range of 3-27x we have achieved both.

 

[poison123]

Ya but is 2x really work another 2 grand in price. I having a hard time with that one.

 

[jbell]

No, trust me on this. There is a difference in 25x and 27x and it is far more than just an extra 2x magnification.

You must also consider that the lens system and overall optical design on the 3-27x56 is about 10 years newer than the 5-25 and anyone in tune knows that the optics industry has advanced quite a bit in the past 10 years or so.

You have to be kidding me Jerry! Are you saying the 3-27X56 is optically better than the 5-25X56!?! So that means I better start saving my shekels

 

[Dogtown]

Yeah, that has me thinking too. When you run a rifle platform with many cartridge conversions, the smart move is to get the best optic you possibly can. And in my case, I find I'm maxing out the elevation in my PMII 5-25x as I take .338LM further, so a better quality option with 36mils would make me sell off my old scope in a heartbeat.

 

[Graham]

S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!

At over 5.5K they have priced themselves out of the majority of the market. Someone must have decided that either they don't care about the majority of the civilian market or that they can make more money by selling fewer scopes with a higher markup on each one only to rich people, or both. Too bad. But either way I hope their quality control improves.

 

[Jerry R]

As I said before, this may not be for everyone and civilian sales were not a factor in the design of this optic. It's just that it is now becoming available to civilians.

Like it or not. Everyone has an opinion.

 

[Dogtown]

Can I assume this will only be available with the LT locking turrets?

 

[Mendy300wm]

If its really what you say it is that's impressive, what's more impressive is you came out with a scope 10years ago that everyone spent a decade trying to equal in performance. Now that some have caught up, you go and do something like this....

Well played Schmidt and Bender... Well played

 

[scudzuki]

I think the 27x top magnification is far less significant than the 3x low power.

If the specs are correct, very little tunneling at that 3 power, too.

The new Hensoldt lists for $7k, doesn't it?
Makes the SuB 3-27 look like a bargain.

Joe

 

[xtype]

Ya but is 2x really work another 2 grand in price. I having a hard time with that one.

It is not the 2x that is worth the premium price, it is the extra FOV _and_ the 2x.

It is interesting that Jerry brings up the "huge FOV" at a low power. No tunneling at all by my calculations (2.9x makes 13m). That is is exactly what drew me instantly to the 3-27 "High Power".
I know a lot of people on here will say "low power FOV does not matter" and so they ignore that the 5-25 tunnels from 5-7x. The same people say "I never go below 10x so I don't noticed, neither should you, problem solved", I guess we shoot different targets. It bugged the hell out of me, enough to dump it for a lower power with matching FOV.

There will be buyers.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

S&B was going to be my next scope if/when I upgraded. That being said after their choice to drop the lifetime warranty I will never own one. I can't justify that kind of money on a scope without it, especially with all the issues I've been hearing about the turrets recently. I feel there are many others leading the way in how warranties should be taken care of. It's to bad

 

[00boraslow]

Looks like a nice scope, but its out of my budget.

 

[Mute]

Yes it's expensive, but who really knows what the manufacturing costs are for delivering 9x magnification in a zoom range that's highly desirable (and useable) without compromising the overall quality? I'd love to see a lower price too, but that just might not be possible. And they still have more than a $1000 advantage on the Hensoldt.

 

[UNREAL HENRY]

I feel like I need a degree in optical engineering to buy a damn scope.

 

[tacguns]

I have 2 S&B 5X25P4/5X25H59 and love them. that being said I got them under the understanding that they had a 30 yr warranty. just to find out that not too long ago they decided to drop it to 2 yrs. which is bullshit. most people buying these products don't make millions. and warranty is important to them no matter how much people try to act like if the quality is there why worry about the warranty. my question is if the quality is there why drop the warranty, as I said I love S&B I think they have the best features but for 3K-4K with only 2 yrs of warranty I will never buy another one period.

 

[AnschutzNerd]

Like it or not. Everyone has an opinion.

A 2-year warranty?? I'm almost sorry I started this thread promoting one of their products.


Schmidt and Bender,

That 3-20x optic I was looking to purchase? If all you offer on a Civilian purchase is a 2-year parts and labor warranty, You can keep it!

AnschutzNerd

 

[TheGerman]

Great, now with all these high magnifaction optics we need VJJ to invent a clip on mirage remover.

 

[KillShot]

As I said before, this may not be for everyone and civilian sales were not a factor in the design of this optic. It's just that it is now becoming available to civilians.

Like it or not. Everyone has an opinion.

Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, from Knights Armament in regards to the SR-25.

 

[poison123]

A 2-year warranty?? I'm almost sorry I started this thread promoting one of their products.


Schmidt and Bender,

That 3-20x optic I was looking to purchase? If all you offer on a Civilian purchase is a 2-year parts and labor warranty, You can keep it!

AnschutzNerd

Ya...makes ya wonder what the quality really is on the new scopes if they are only offering a 2 year warranty.

 

[surprise]

I find it sad that company would charge over 5000 for an optic and only have enough confidence in their product to give you a two year warranty.

 

[Jerry R]

A 2-year warranty?? I'm almost sorry I started this thread promoting one of their products.


Schmidt and Bender,

That 3-20x optic I was looking to purchase? If all you offer on a Civilian purchase is a 2-year parts and labor warranty, You can keep it!

AnschutzNerd

AnschutzNerd

Back up a bit and look at my post that you quoted. If you're going to quote me it would help to include the entire post to get a more clear message across of what I was saying or at least referring to. The partial quote you used was regarding price and had nothing to do with warranty.

The warranty was dictated by the European directive on products in this type of service and that's why the hunting scopes warranty is still 30 years. Most people probably treat their PMII's better than real hunters treat their scopes and most people pissing and moaning about it probably don't own one any way.

Ask anyone who has ever had a warranty repair that was no fault of there own, since we've been in VA, and get their response. The only timely repairs have ever been if we had to wait for parts from Germany.

 

[Jerry R]

I find it sad that company would charge over 5000 for an optic and only have enough confidence in their product to give you a two year warranty.

The confidence in our product has absolutely nothing to do with warranty periods. And that has honestly got to be one of most ridiculous posts I've seen yet. But I'm sure there will be more.

 

[lizzardking308]

I find it sad that company would charge over 5000 for an optic and only have enough confidence in their product to give you a two year warranty.

Can someone provide me with an example where their scope was sent back to S&B for a defect outside the 2 year period and was made to pay for the service? Probably not as since the service center has been in the US it hasn't happened. I had something come loose in my MTC knob on a 3-12 after years of use and sent it back last week. Jerry had it turned around same day and back to me, no cost. You guys should actually go shoot and worry about issues that are legit rather than what if's. S&B has stood behind their stuff and it would be stupid to assume they wouldn't going forward.

As far as the 3-27's price, yah it's expensive, but it was designed and built for a specific end user who isn't us. Despite that fact, it is still a fair amount less than other high end scopes with similar zoom ranges. If you are wanting something less money, the 5-25 is still a heck of an optic and to say its proven would be an understatement. If S&B isn't in your price range at the moment, either save up or go with a more cost effective alternative, but complaining about the price isn't going to change it. Think about how much money went into designing the 3-27, T&E, and producing this scope for a relatively small market. Economies of scale doesn't apply here hence the high cost.

Oh, and one more thing, Killshot, you might think twice about calling out one of the more respected members of the shooting industry publically like that. I would wager Jerry's supporters on here would form a decent line and would echo the sentiment that he is one of the good guys who has ALWAYS taken care of people. For what its worth....

 

[lizzardking308]

Tell me you're joking?? If that doesn't include an option for gen 3 night-vision use...clicks the ((pass)) button

Who is complaining about this?

Carl Zeiss Optronics Hensoldt ZF 3.5-26x56 Riflescope - EuroOptic.com

 

[Graham]

A fool and his money are easily parted.

 

[poison123]

Who is complaining about this?

Carl Zeiss Optronics Hensoldt ZF 3.5-26x56 Riflescope - EuroOptic.com

Might want to look around Lizzard....believe me we have complained even more about that one.......



But Jerry seriously why the shift to a 2 year warranty on a expensive scope? Does S&B not want to stand by their product after that fact......Quality control has been a little lacking. You just have to look at the stupid fucking problems people had with the locking turrets once they came out.

 

[sib1948]

Jerry, I applaud you for they way you responded to this post. S&B scopes have been the "gold standard" for years, but other manufactures have caught up in recent years. Sounds like a wonderful scope and I hope you sell a bunch, so I can get an old 5-25X with DT turrets. You have always been a great resource and help to Hide members and followers. Thanks

 

[gafferq2xl]

Jerry, will the high power series be available with the MSR reticles?

 

[Jerry R]

I believe the MSR will be an option or the scope can be ordered with one once options are listed and production begins.

I will admit there were problems associated with the locking turrets but I will also admit that more than 50% of those issues were a misunderstanding of the function and lack of proper written instructions.
People would loosen the set screws to zero the knobs, feel and hear clicks and immediately remove the retaining screw and create their own disaster.

To even consider that we have reduced the warranty period on our product due to a decreased level of confidence is anything but true.

 

[blair]

I own several 5x25's S&B and had only one issue - with the locking turrets. The service was nothing short of incredible. Spoke to Jerry one day, shipped out the scope the next, and had it back within 1 week. Perfect.

 

[Jerry R]

A fool and his money are easily parted.

I agree. And we all should only buy vehicles from manufacturers that offer lifetime warranties because five years is just pure BS!!
They obviously don't have faith in their products.

 

[Graham]

S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!

I agree. And we all should only buy vehicles from manufacturers that offer lifetime warranties because five years is just pure BS!!
They obviously don't have faith in their products.

Car warranties have nothing to do with faith in the product. They exist to benefit the manufacturer, not the consumer. That, and the industry-wide move to 100,000 mile warranties is, in effect, almost a lifetime warranty for the majority of vehicles.

As you know, the high-end optic market is a very different animal, and not nearly as regulated.

My concern with SB is that two years ago they raised their prices and cut dealer margins only because, as it appeared to the outsider, the market would bear it. Since then I have received two new SB scopes that were both broken as they came new in the box. I sent them back. And that I had never seen before from SB.

The customer service was indeed very good. I had one SB fail in the last two years and it was taken care of, but (if I recall correctly) not before being sent to Germany and back.

Most recently, my longest and best contact at SB left the company. You know more about that than I do, but suffice it to say that to me the price increases, quality issues, and long- term employee leaving we're all indicators of, if not deeper problems, then at the very least significant changes in the way the company does business both internally and externally.

Don't get me wrong, I like SB products and I still buy their scopes and run their scopes. I love the old 5-25, and the 4-16 Gen II is probably still the best scope for use on a two-way range. I just fear that people like me are being pushed aside by the lure of big money and big contracts.

 

[Jerry R]

Graham, I can't speak of the scopes you sent back for issues and I'm sure you had good reason for doing so.

However, insinuating that your longest and best contact left our company as an indication of problems is absurd. I realize you two were pals but please don't refer to him as a "long term employee".
He was merely a part time consultant and was never an employee nor was he committed to one company.

And fear not, no one is being pushed aside by the lure of big money and big contracts.

 

[Mendy300wm]

Tommyboy 04 Guarantee scene - YouTube

The best warranties are ones you dont have to use.... Keep putting out good shit S&B, and hang in there Jerry some people will never get it.

 

[Clusterfrack]

S&B was going to be my next scope if/when I upgraded. That being said after their choice to drop the lifetime warranty I will never own one. I can't justify that kind of money on a scope without it, especially with all the issues I've been hearing about the turrets recently. I feel there are many others leading the way in how warranties should be taken care of. It's to bad

I would have preferred a lifetime warranty too. On the other hand, I think good customer service is more important. E.g. Dillon only offers a 1 year warranty on their top of the line 1050 press but provides service and parts for a fair price.

BTW the turrets on my new SB are GTG.

See ya on the range dude and remember to bring my SMK 142s...

 

[Jerry R]

I'm not sure where it came from but PMII's were warranted for 30 years until recently, not lifetime. I have 10 year old paperwork from a 3-12 PMII and it clearly states 30 years.

If someone has warranty paperwork stating lifetime on a PMII I'd be very interested in seeing it. Also, if you have serialized warranty documentation with matching numbers on the optic I will honor that warranty with whatever timeline is stated.

I recently had to send a pair of high end binocular range finders in for service, replacing of worn parts and cleaning. Guess what? They only had a 5 year warranty and it was dead two years ago so I had to pay about $300 for the service. I use them 300 days a year, I know I can rely on them and until now I've never had an issue.
I knew the warranty was only 5 years when I paid $2300+ for them but did it make me even think twice? Not a chance.
I guess we're not all the same after all.

 

[Clusterfrack]

Sorry Jerry--I stand corrected.

I think the comparison is between SB and other manufacturers who do offer a lifetime warranty.

 

[Graham]

S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!

However, insinuating that your longest and best contact left our company as an indication of problems is absurd. I realize you two were pals but please don't refer to him as a "long term employee".
He was merely a part time consultant and was never an employee nor was he committed to one company.

Thanks for the response.

The scope reticles were not centered in the eyebox and the scopes could not be turned up to 25x without shadowing. From what I was told, a few dealers sent them back as well. I think that must have been from a batch that got away, as sometimes happens, and I have not seen it since.

I am sorry that you are having issues with consultants as well. But he and I were never 'pals'. The person I was referring to is in fact a 'she'.

And, for the record, I have never had a problem, a question asked about my warranty, or a service charge when having any SB scope repaired. My point was only that until recently I've never had to send one back.

 

[poison123]

But why the shift from 30 to 2 years Jerry? Thats a hell of a fucking jump. I mean 15 or 10 would have been one thing, but 2 is crazy.

And as far as a comparison to cars give me a break. I'm willing to bet there's a little bit more internal wear on the car vs the internal wear on a scope.

Makes me regret selling my older S&Bs to try out other scopes like Hennies. I will admit the service from Jerry is awesome....not like the complete cluster fuck of the Hensoldt line.

 

[Jerry R]

Maybe a bad analogy but I compare them to cars because they are engineered, designed and built to be run hard every day by people who rely on them to keep their ass alive. They are not kept in a nice padded, dark safe and brought out once in a while to shoot a local match or hunt. They're on the line every day of the week and see more hard use than 90% of the people reading this would even dream of putting anything they own through.
And guess what? They're still up and running even after the warranty is up.

 

[poison123]

Maybe a bad analogy but I compare them to cars because they are engineered, designed and built to be run hard every day by people who rely on them to keep their ass alive. They are not kept in a nice padded, dark safe and brought out once in a while to shoot a local match or hunt. They're on the line every day of the week and see more hard use than 90% of the people reading this would even dream of putting anything they own through.
And guess what? They're still up and running even after the warranty is up.

yet again why the shift to the 2 year warranty Jerry. Simple enough question.

 

[Jerry R]

Sorry Graham. For the record, "she" was also a consultant.

 

[Graham]

S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!

To be fair, I have seen all makes of premium scopes go down. It happens. If I remember right, Frank had a SB that he had used for many, many years and it finally stopped tracking (Jacob's original old loaner is still working, btw). That's not the fault of SB any more than wearing out a transmission after many, many miles is the fault of the car manufacturer.

That said, this is what makes long warranties more important on the better scopes like SB. Because when it hiccups, after years of use, a longer warranty is better for the consumer than a shorter one.