Rifle Scopes S&B PM ll DT or MTC?

[Robo]

With prices coming down on the S&B PM ll line, I'm thinking of picking one up to put on top of my AI 6.5 Creedmoor, mainly for PRS matches. I've heard a number of folks mention that they like the original DT turrets instead of the MTC. Wondering if anyone has experience with both and what are the pros and cons?

 

[jonthomps]

I have a 5-25 with DT turrets and a 3-20 Ultra Short with MTC turrets. DT turrets are better IMHO for sure. The MTC is handy in a select few situations but it's frustrating to blow .1-.2 mils past each 1 mil mark. The original DT turrets are foolproof.

 

[Robo]

I have a 5-25 with DT turrets and a 3-20 Ultra Short with MTC turrets. DT turrets are better IMHO for sure. The MTC is handy in a select few situations but it's frustrating to blow .1-.2 mils past each 1 mil mark. The original DT turrets are foolproof.

that seems consistent with comments I've heard before about the advantages of the original design. Seems like it's best not to mess with something proven to work well. thx.

 

[vh20]

I was faced with the same decision when I bought mine, and was unable to try either one out in person as no one sells them locally. After careful research, I found that the majority opinion largely favored the original DT design, so that's what I went with. Of course there are some that really like the MTCs, but I really don't need locking turrets, and the DTs are pretty secure anyway.

 

[Robo]

I was faced with the same decision when I bought mine, and was unable to try either one out in person as no one sells them locally. After careful research, I found that the majority opinion largely favored the original DT design, so that's what I went with. Of course there are some that really like the MTCs, but I really don't need locking turrets, and the DTs are pretty secure anyway.

Interesting point on the locking turrets. I have those on my Razor Gen ii and find that I rarely use them, except when I'm putting my gun back in the safe. If the DT turrets are fairly stiff, I don't see myself needing those on an S&B either.

 

[Mute]

I prefer the DT. The MTC feature just annoys me. If I need to dial without the ability to see the actual turrets, the MTC can come in handy, but that's a niche feature and there are work arounds. Locking turrets can come in handy, but I always re-zero after my shots anyway so, again not an absolute must for me.

 

[hk dave]

OP, I like the feel of the DT turrets better, but actually prefer the MTC Locking turrets because of the locking feature.

MTC I can live with or without. It doesn't matter to me.

 

[Robo]

Not to switch gears here too much, but what PM II reticles do you gents favor for quick target acquisition and overall utility?

 

[hk dave]

Different reticles for different situations.

But with what's available from S&B.

MSR is my favorite all around. P4F for extended long range, or maybe even a Gen 2XR because of the fine subtensions. H59 for a gas gun in the desert when I know I'll be able to see splash.

 

[Sniperstud]

My S&B 5-25 is the PSR model. It has the locking turrets without the MTC feature on the elevation. It still has the single heavier click at zero on the windage. I seem to remember reading on here somewhere that you can have the MTC disabled by S&B, if you want the locking turrets. Maybe someone will chime in to confirm this, and possibly comment on the cost of this modification. I like the locking feature, but in thirty years of hunting and professional use, most of my optics did not have locking turrets. I’ve never had my turret adjustments change by accident, so I don’t feel it’s a critical feature.

 

[Robo]

Interesting comments on both the turret options and various reticles. I've been going back and forth between the P4F and Gen ii XR since most of my shooting would be in the 300-1100 yard ranges at my local club for PRS style matches.

 

[dirthead1]

Not to switch gears here too much, but what PM II reticles do you gents favor for quick target acquisition and overall utility?

I had a PM II in the past with P4F reticle, and didn't really care for it. It's similar to the MSR, but I would go MSR between the two. However, I just got another PM II with Gen II XR, and love the reticle. Seems like Mile High had a few models on sale for $2495 a few days ago.

 

[chrisward3]

I'll do my best to answer your question in 2 parts:

Turrets: There are 3 types of turrets they offer, the DT, MTC, and MTC/LT (locking turret). The DTs are smooth and solid as others have said. The MTC option I found to be almost unusable as the detents on the 3 or 4 ive used were very deep and impossible to dial .1mil past the .0mil value. The MTC/LT (which I own presently) are less "harsh" and it is possible dial .1's once you get the feel of the turret. The locking feature has come in handy on occasion where the gun has been bagged or carried between stages and didn't want to risk a turret getting twisted and me forgetting to check it. Its a personal preference, but I would rank it MTC/LT, DT, and not even consider the MTC-only version.

Reticles: Lots of options out there to suit everyone's preference. I went with the H-59 as I wanted the option to use holds vs dialling depending on the stage design and time restrictions. While some will argue that theyre "too busy" or "unusable", I honestly find the opposite. When dialling, I am able to focus on the floating dot in the cross hair and ignore the rest of the reticle, and when holding, I am able to utilize the area of the reticle required to make the shot. Whatever reticle you choose, practice with it and get to know it inside and out. Most of the complaints about Horus are made by those who have never looked through or shot with one, or haven't spent much time training with it before writing it off.

In the end, these are my opinions based on my needs for an optic. I would encourage you to get out and try as many turret and reticle combinations as you can and decide for yourself. What works for some, may not easily work for others.

 

[Robo]

Good feedback. I did see the sale at MH and that's one of the reasons it's on my mind now. I've tried the DT turrets and they seem solid, audible, and obviously time tested. As noted above, the "standard" MTC only doesn't appeal to me. Will have to check out the prices on the various options and make a decision there.
I've tried enough reticles to know if takes a while to get used to them before it becomes second nature. I went thru that when I first switched from MOA to MIL - got tired of my buddies giving me wind calls in MILs while I was looking through an MOA reticle!

 

[vh20]

I have the H2CMR reticles on both of mine. I really like it for the 0.2 mil windage subtensions. The crosshair itself is the same thickness as the P4F. While I don't compete in PRS, it is the best choice for what I do, which is LR work from 1000 to 1600+. However, I know that Rob01 seemed to favor it back when he was running SBs in competition.

 

[steve123]

I'll do my best to answer your question in 2 parts:

Turrets: There are 3 types of turrets they offer, the DT, MTC, and MTC/LT (locking turret). The DTs are smooth and solid as others have said. The MTC option I found to be almost unusable as the detents on the 3 or 4 ive used were very deep and impossible to dial .1mil past the .0mil value. The MTC/LT (which I own presently) are less "harsh" and it is possible dial .1's once you get the feel of the turret. The locking feature has come in handy on occasion where the gun has been bagged or carried between stages and didn't want to risk a turret getting twisted and me forgetting to check it. Its a personal preference, but I would rank it MTC/LT, DT, and not even consider the MTC-only version.

Reticles: Lots of options out there to suit everyone's preference. I went with the H-59 as I wanted the option to use holds vs dialling depending on the stage design and time restrictions. While some will argue that theyre "too busy" or "unusable", I honestly find the opposite. When dialling, I am able to focus on the floating dot in the cross hair and ignore the rest of the reticle, and when holding, I am able to utilize the area of the reticle required to make the shot. Whatever reticle you choose, practice with it and get to know it inside and out. Most of the complaints about Horus are made by those who have never looked through or shot with one, or haven't spent much time training with it before writing it off.

In the end, these are my opinions based on my needs for an optic. I would encourage you to get out and try as many turret and reticle combinations as you can and decide for yourself. What works for some, may not easily work for others.

That hits the nail on the head! My thoughts almost word for word.

 

[Robo]

I have the H2CMR reticles on both of mine. I really like it for the 0.2 mil windage subtensions. The crosshair itself is the same thickness as the P4F. While I don't compete in PRS, it is the best choice for what I do, which is LR work from 1000 to 1600+. However, I know that Rob01 seemed to favor it back when he was running SBs in competition.

I've actually done some training and shooting with Rob01 since we were both CT guys before his recent move down south. We've talked about the S&B reticles and your comments on right on track with his thoughts. He's a Vortex guy these days and turned me onto the Razor Gen ii that I also have. Very knowledgeable and good guy.

 

[tomcfc11]

With PRS style shooting I am looking at getting a MTC/LT with H59 reticle. This will allow dialing if I need and holdovers if that stage requires. I've seen a turret spin too many times when you are moving fast. If I am going to hold over then I can lock the turret out and know that I have my zero. the H2CMR appealed to me if I was dialing elevation. If I don't have the time or am not allowed on that stage then I would just lock it out. I have a P4F MTC/LT and it's a bit hard to hit a .1 over a mil when dialing. I am old school and always dial over and come back a .1 or .2 to settle on my true setting so it's not that big of a deal.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have both DT and MTC-LT and I didn't think I would say this but after using both for over a year I find I like the MTC-LT better. For me I am able to see the MTC-LT .01 tenth marks easier. I have shot local matches with both.

 

[Robo]

Too many choices and preferences here, it appears. The good news is that I have yet to hear anyone (although I didn't specifically ask the question) say that they didn't like their S&B PM ll. I know there are a wide array of high quality scopes out there these days but, being a bit old school myself, I'm guessing the S&B hasn't been considered a top of the line optic for many years for nothing....

 

[TorF]

Reticles: Target acquisition and quick shooting.

This is interesting. If all tactical S&B reticles were plugged in to a LRF scope with automatic elevation and windage adjustment nothing is faster and easiier to shoot than the regular mildot. All other reticles are more focused to pre shot estimation. Ask any McQueen or MS-shooter what he would prefer. They will see the difference directly in their scores. My bet is that a top MS shooter will score 5-10% more with a regular mildot than a P4fine shooting identical scopes side by side. This again relates to the quick shot you need to take off hand at the 5 sec popup target at 480m..

 

[jonthomps]

I run the H2CMR in both of mine. Fantastic for wind holds. If they would drop the reticle thickness from .035 to .025 it would be perfect in my opinion.

 

[Robo]

I run the H2CMR in both of mine. Fantastic for wind holds. If they would drop the reticle thickness from .035 to .025 it would be perfect in my opinion.

That seems to be a popular reticle. Isn't the desired thickness you mention of .025 what the Gen ii XR is?

 

[jonthomps]

That seems to be a popular reticle. Isn't the desired thickness you mention of .025 what the Gen ii XR is?

Yep!

 

[Robo]

Given that I'm leaning a bit towards a "Christmas Tree" reticle, seems like the Gen ii XR might be the best choice for me. I like that general design for multiple target acquisition when I need both an elevation and wind hold. Still up in the air a bit on the DT vs. the MTC but leaning towards the DT with the pricing discounts out there right now.

 

[Thumper580]

Have SB PMII 5-25x56. I love the scope but I feel the MTC is abit too fine/close of an adjustment.

 

[Robo]

Have SB PMII 5-25x56. I love the scope but I feel the MTC is abit too fine/close of an adjustment.

I think that helps me make up my mind on the DT; I realize it's a matter of personal preference, but I haven't seen anything compelling that the MTC is the better choice.

 

[steve123]

It's the MTC-LT turrets that are the ones you want vs the MTC - wider turret and locking.

It's funny to me, the thing that there are those that are bothered by going a click or two past the MTC clunk and going to where you want from there. I do that anyway with the DT's most of the time when I'm in a hurry anyway. like if dialing 3.4 mils for example, you don't count the mils, you look straight for the 3+ quickly, land in there somewhere, take a gaze and make a click or two either way.

With the MTC-LT turrets you do what I just described above except you can feel the 3 full mils.

 

[Robo]

Interesting point on the fine mil adjustments; I tend to do the same thing when dialing quickly. Seems like the LT version of the MTC is definitely better than the MTC only

 

[carlm338]

It's the MTC-LT turrets that are the ones you want vs the MTC - wider turret and locking.

It's funny to me, the thing that there are those that are bothered by going a click or two past the MTC clunk and going to where you want from there. I do that anyway with the DT's most of the time when I'm in a hurry anyway. like if dialing 3.4 mils for example, you don't count the mils, you look straight for the 3+ quickly, land in there somewhere, take a gaze and make a click or two either way.

With the MTC-LT turrets you do what I just described above except you can feel the 3 full mils.

^^This^^

I have both DT and MTC/LT and don't have a preference. They both work good for me.

 

[mpk1996]

I also feel that the MTC-LT turrets are the best way to go. I really like it cause I like to lock the windage, even if roll a few tenths in, I like it locked so I can't bump it. then, depending on the stage, I either lock the elevation (one target distance stage) or leave it unlocked on a stage that I will dial. As far as the getting .1 past the major mil (like 3.1), that's the beauty of the MTC. don't dial the 3.1, just dial 3.0 and hold the .1. its so much faster and very easy to hold just .1. heck I would do it for anything in the .1-.2 if I had a lot to dial. most of the targets aren't that small that the .1 in elevation will make a difference anyway.

as far as reticle goes, I really think for most PRS stuff the tree reticles are overrated. especially the horus reticles. they have their place for sure, but for me most of the time i'm dialing or when I'm not, I'm holding wind based on the target, not the mil hold (like left edge, favor right, just off, ect) and with that, I can use just the vertical main crosshair. if there is that much wind, on that small a target where it matters that much, i'm dialing the elevation, so then I'm on the main horizontal crosshair anyway. with the horus reticles, for me, they block too much of the lower reticle and it makes it harder to see mirage and vegetation moving to adjust wind as the stage progresses. I had a lot of them (tremor 2, h59, skmr3, ebr-2c) and have moved away from them in favor of the standard reticles like the H2CMR or skmr1.

for me the perfect scope for PRS is the Schmidt MTC-LT CCW with H2CMR reticle

 

[Robo]

I guess at the end of the day, the reticle choice really comes down to personal preference and what's comfortable to use. I know a lot of guys who hate the Christmas tree style and others who swear by them. the biggest thing for me was switching from a MOA based scope to MIL since that was what most of my buddies were using. Again, personal preference but that change made sense for me.