Rifle Scopes S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

[Jager66]

Specifically, I am referring to two models here :

3-12x50 PMII - Illuminated Reticle - FFP - Milrad - Double turret
3-20x50 PMII - Illuminated Reticle - FFP - Milrad - Double turret

For 50% Hunting use and 50% Target use, which one would you recommend and why ?

To me it appears P4L (thickest) would be better suited for hunting/ranging in low light conditions, while P4L Fine would win in target shooting.

P4L Pros : More visible (thicker lines) reticle and hash marks in low light conditions and thus easier to use, especially against dark backgrounds.

P4L Cons : Reticle covers more target space and is more "crowded".


P4L Fine Pros : Less clutter within reticle area for looking.
Does not obscure target much.

P4L Fine Cons : Less visible in dark conditions and more difficult to use for holdhover or range estimation.

I am sure lots of you who have purchased these scopes have gone through the same question.
Please, light a beacon...

TY

P.S.: I know both have the option to turn the lit center cross on, but that would not be useful when needing to use holdover for quick shots and ranging targets in low light.

 

[Rob01]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

Not sure if the H2CMR reticle is available in the 3-12 but it will be in the 3-20x and that's another good option. The line thickness is the same as the P4 Fine but for lowlight the whole reticle illuminates out to the heavier duplex. Also has .2 mil marks on the horizontal for wind holds or ranging and it's broken down on the vertical between 2 and 3 mils into .1 mil marks.

If you want to stick with the P4s then it's a tough choice. Will the hunting be in lowlight or more out in open?

 

[19818119]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

Rob, a tad off topic but what's your opinion of the MSR reticle?
Thanks

 

[Jager66]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

MSR would be my choice, but S & B confirmed (e-mail) this reticle is available for 5-25x56 PMII ONLY !

No choice to have it in the 3-20x50......according to what THEY said

...and 5-25x56 is too big/heavy for my rig, so I guess options are down to P4L/P4L Fine.

As far as hunting....honestly there probably won't be too many occasions in which shots will be taken in very low light, but the background in the area I normally hunt is quite dark.
Does this count ?

 

[Rob01]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

If there's not much chance of low light then I would go with the P4F of your two choices. The illumination will help you with the darker back grounds and you will be better off with the P4F in target shooting. As you can see sometimes making one thing do multiple things is a give and take.

Rath, it's a good reticle. line thickness between the other two and the L ranging bracket are nice. That said between the two the H2CMR would be my choice especially with the upcharge on the MSR for it's use.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

Personally, I couldn't see a reason not to go with a 3-20x50 over a 3-12x. If you can have the same bottom-end, no reason not to have more top-end. I'm going to try to get a 3-20x when they are released. I'm trying to figure out which reticle I'm going to go with, too. I'm leaning toward the HCMR2 at the moment, but hat's likely to change.

 

[Rob01]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

Keep leaning that way. I have one on order with the H2CMR and after using the H2CMR at the BHTC match this past weekend I really, really like that reticle.

 

[Jager66]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep leaning that way. I have one on order with the H2CMR and after using the H2CMR at the BHTC match this past weekend I really, really like that reticle. </div></div>

Is there any chance that Someone could post a "live" pic of what this reticle looks like ?
That'd be interesting.
From the *.pdf sheet it doesn't really give the idea....

I am sitting tight...

 

[Rob01]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

Ask and you shall receive.

Took these at 400 yards and the round steel is 8". Also as I always say don't take the image as that it actual looks like as far as glass clarity. I suck at taking pics through the scope and took these for the reticle only. Glass is much clearer in person.
25x

20x

15x

10x

5x

 

[19818119]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joseph Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MSR would be my choice, but S & B confirmed (e-mail) this reticle is available for 5-25x56 PMII ONLY !

No choice to have it in the 3-20x50......according to what THEY said

...and 5-25x56 is too big/heavy for my rig, so I guess options are down to P4L/P4L Fine.

As far as hunting....honestly there probably won't be too many occasions in which shots will be taken in very low light, but the background in the area I normally hunt is quite dark.
Does this count ?

</div></div>

Can somebody in the know confirm that the MSR will not be available in the 3-20x50?

Thanks,
Rath

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

If it was me, and I really wnted something for 50/50 hunting and target shooting I would definately get the 3-12x50 and I would avoid like the plauge the P4F.

The 4F is harder to pick up for snap shots - esp in low light or in a shadowed area. Remember too, when it is right at that break point between dark enough to turn on the lit feature and get some help and just dark enough to see the thin stadia - the help is less b/c the line weight is less. Thus - help actually comes several minutes later with the 4F and leaves one with a gap in time compared to a heavier line weight.

The 3-12 is lighter weight and more compact - both of which are nice when spending several hours moving through the brush. 12x is also plenty of magnification for at least 1k.

Good luck

 

[Jager66]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ask and you shall receive.

.... </div></div>

Thanks Bud, that's exactly what I was looking for.

I guess this reticle brings the best of "both worlds".....very fine for accurate aiming and yet very visible against dark backgrounds when lit !

I also like the idea of the whole reticle getting lit, this way holdovers and range estimating can be made in any light.....providing target is visible

My only concern would be that there is a lot going on into the reticle area, isn't there ? Or, maybe, one gets used to it with little practice....?

Is "milling" easy with it?

I have notice there are some .1 Mil hash marks between the 2 and 3 Mil marks....where does the fifth actually is (starting form the .5 Mil line) ?

 

[Rob01]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

There's not that much going on. When you use it it comes together just fine. After using it at a match this past weekend it has become my favorite over the P4F.

It's very easy to mil with that reticle as well as use it foe holds both wind and elevation.

The marks are broken down into .1 mil marks between the 2 and 3 mil marks for ease of breaking down the mil and more accurate ranging. It's broken down as the center of the 2nd dot, which are .2 mils wide, is the starting point with the top being .1 mil then 3 marks for .2, .3 and .4 mils and then the .5 mil mark like the others. Going up from there is the same as there is a .6, .7 and .8 mil mark with the bottom of 3 mil dot is the .9 and center of that dot being 1 mil.

 

[JL]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joseph Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Specifically, I am referring to two models here :

3-12x50 PMII - Illuminated Reticle - FFP - Milrad - Double turret
3-20x50 PMII - Illuminated Reticle - FFP - Milrad - Double turret

For 50% Hunting use and 50% Target use, which one would you recommend and </div></div>

I updated my 3-12 PM2 from P3 mildot to P4L.
IMO thicker version of P4:s is spot on for it. Its good to remember that same reticle will look lot slimmer in 3-12 than it appears to be in 5-25 model.
Same goes both ways, if P4F feels almost too thin in 5-25, its looks even thinner in 3-12.

MSR will likely be available for 3-20 too eventually, but not at the moment.

 

[SPECR]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?



"I updated my 3-12 PM2 from P3 mildot to P4L."

How much did the factory charge for this recticle?

 

[JL]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

Not arm&leg, cant remember.

 

[Rob01]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

It's around $400 if I remember correctly. You can call the service center in NH to get an exact quote.

Schmidt & Bender, Inc.
741 Main Street
Claremont, NH 03743
U.S.A.
(800) 468-3450
(603) 287-4830
(603) 287-4832 fax
[email protected]

 

[SPECR]

Re: S & B PMII - P4L vs. P4L Fine ?

Confirmed...not possible to put the H2CMR reticle in the 3-12x50. Only available on 5-25x for now.