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SAC: Floating Bolt Head Remington 700 prototype

Mgordon

Mgordon

Gunny Sergeant
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 29, 2007
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Wellington, Ohio
www.shortactioncustoms.com
Shooters,

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I would share it here. I have been working on a floating bolt head Remington 700 conversion. It is not that difficult to do and has lots of benefits. I'm in the process of doing the accuracy testing and playing around with this rifle more and more. So far so good.

On paper, there should always be square lug contact, square bolt face and assuming the action is trued as mentioned above, it would yield near maximum accuracy potential with one negative effect that I can think of. Due to a sloppy bolt clearance, the firing pin will not be traveling perfectly parallel with the centerline of the action. This is something I can live with considering the benefits.

By adding the floating bolt head, I gain these benefits.
-I can install the bolt head in a fashion that brings the bolt handle as far as possible in the bolt handle cutout for maximum extraction.
-I can time the bolt handle timing perfectly
-Maintain Rem 700 reliability from the loose raceway while maintaining square bolt lug/face
-Guided, minimal clearance firing pin
-Post 64 style extractor.
-Gas Check behind the lugs
-Superior metallurgy on the lugs.


Mark











 
Very cool Mark,when we talked about this in Texas I went back and told my buddy (gunsmith) here in N.C. that has done this modification himself that you had started working on your on mod of the 700 for the floating bolt head and his response was, " bout time somebody started offering this." He said he had used it with great success competing in 1,000 yard benshrest with his own rifle and wish he had the time to build more. Glad to see you have her up and runing, post some groups whe you get a chance.
 
Mark, how are you indicating the timing of the crosspin hole?

I understand its indexing is crucial to proper action timing, but I'm curious how you get it setup in your mill so you know the quill is in *just* the right spot before poking the hole.
 
BradleyH said:
Tag, curious of how this will turn out
Click to expand...

In the end it's a trued up Savage! :)

The rifle I use here for testing is an original Savage 112V series J. I set the barrel up like a Remington (I don't use the Savage barrel nut). Pinned the lug to the receiver so I don't lose the timing of the lug and doesn't effect the bedding. This rifle has had barrels in .220 Swift, .308win., .338 Lapua, 6mm Rem., 7.5x58 (currently on the gun), .243win., .223 Rem. just change the bolt head and barrel to change the caliber.

Gun shoots like a million bucks for me all the time. Has never let me down.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
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Frank Green said:
In the end it's a trued up Savage.

The rifle I use here for testing is an original Savage 112V series J. I set the barrel up like a Remington (I don't use the Savage barrel nut). Pinned the lug to the receiver so I don't lose the timing of the lug and doesn't effect the bedding. This rifle has had barrels in .220 Swift, .308win., .338 Lapua, 6mm Rem., 7.5x58 (currently on the gun), .243win., .223 Rem. just change the bolt head and barrel to change the caliber.

Gun shoots like a million bucks for me all the time. Has never let me down.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Click to expand...

But Frank...........................Its a SAVAGE!!!! This is a Remington! :)
 
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Interesting, indeed. I too would like to see how this turns out. I'm betting pretty well, as from the other rifles I've seen here from SAC, all have been top-notch. Good luck!
 
For your next challenge...

See if you can fit one of these to the Remington:


Baffle.jpg
 
We document the O.D. of the bolt where the cross pin goes through, we have a fixture to hold the bolt. We indicate it in and drill/ream the cross pin. When we bore out the bolt head, its indicated on the OD of the action. We are shooting for the OD, ID, and crosspin to be square and concentric.

Mark
 
Looks good Mark. I'll gladly field test a setup for you... May be the edge you and I need to beat Jon next year at the Cup....
 
Excellent work! Yet nothing new as a smith or two in this area have been doing this conversion for at least 15 years, that I know of.
Great option and just haven't had it done yet... By the way, you can purchase the bolt head kits from Dave Kiff at PTG.
 
flounderv2 said:
I like your makeshift Unimog setup and HighAngle course.. hahahaha.. GO TRAVIS!!!!! :)
Click to expand...

Haha yeah I'll have my own little Snipershide Cup training facility before to long right down to the same targets. Probably wont help my scores and I will probably just get clowned more next year haha
 
Skyking said:
Looks like your just coping what AJ has already done with the Bighorn. I would even say that is one of his bolt heads.




Click to expand...

And AJ @ Big Horn didn't copy the bolt head off a Savage? There is no crazy advancement in technology here. Its just making bolt/barrel swaps a lot more simple.

Good work Mark.
 
seems like dave kiff could make that bolt setup by the hundreds,,,,
 
So Mark, you only need the bolt to do the conversion? Does it make any difference if the action was previously trued? It would be worth the short drive to have it done, besides it just gives me an excuse to rebarrel :)
 
My Rem-Age build will like this. Looks like Mark's bolt conversion and Rem-Age barrels from here on out for me!
 
bbcellars said:
Do you have any idea on pricing, and when you will start offering the service?

Thank you
Click to expand...

i was thinking the same thing. this might be a dumb question, but will you be able to just send the bolt in and get it modified or do you have to send the whole rifle to make sure the headspacing is correct still? also, once the modification has been made would it be possible to order barrels from you pre-chambered that you could swap out at home with a barrel vice and action wrench?
 
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Also, pro tip on the wafer spring washer.. U have it set like a factory savage.. To the rear...

Instead place it between.... Just behind he main bolt head... The reason for that is it creates a gap for the grease to stay..

The default way dose not....
 
Ring said:
Also, pro tip on the wafer spring washer.. U have it set like a factory savage.. To the rear...

Instead place it between.... Just behind he main bolt head... The reason for that is it creates a gap for the grease to stay..

The default way dose not....
Click to expand...

I disagree with doing it this way.

I take the opposite approach because the factory savage approach sweeps debris off the bolt head lugs and minimizes galling in dirty environments. Even if it sweeps the grease off the lugs there is the same level of grease that stays when you cycle the bolt the first time with the other arrangement. Instead of the gas block sweeping the excess grease off the cam surface inside the receiver lugs does it and you've lost the debris removal protection. Net loss in functionality.

I've been running AJ's bolt heads and several factory savage heads this way for a number of years, one of AJ's actions has over 16k cycles (more than half live fire) on it since mid 2011. It shows no hint of galling after all the time running in dusty/dirty environments like Reade Range and a private strip mine area.
 
I want one in a long action. Saves me from buying another LA bolt with a 308 bolt face for my switch barrel project. On a side note, would a Bighorn bolt work in a 700?
 
300stw said:
seems like dave kiff could make that bolt setup by the hundreds,,,,
Click to expand...

I am sure Dave Kiff can make these up however, I really like AJ's products and I just do not think they get any better. Dealing with AJ ensures I can get a complete set of parts needed (bolt head, cross pin, gas check, ejector assembly, extractor assembly and spring washer. I have not played around with the PTG head yet, but the things I like about AJ's bolt head is the extractor and ejector assembly have been proven out and work great, the machining is top notch and his bolt heads are made with precision and accuracy in mind. Again, I have not handled or measured the PTG units, but I would rather go with AJ's head instead of a replacement Savage head if that is what it was designed to do. Who knows, the PTG may be made just as well, I just have loyalty to AJ.


Quote from Swift "So Mark, you only need the bolt to do the conversion? Does it make any difference if the action was previously trued? It would be worth the short drive to have it done, besides it just gives me an excuse to rebarrel "

I would most likely like to have the action in hand as well. this is to ensure I can match the bolt head in the exactly location it needs to be to maximize extraction and ensure bolt time is correct.


Quote from BBCellars "Do you have any idea on pricing, and when you will start offering the service?"

I will pursue this as a service we off. I need to ensure AJ would be willing to support the demand outside of his work load. Pricing will follow depending his answer as well as availability. I do have about 3 complete assemblies in hand as we speak.

Quote from Lowfill707 "i was thinking the same thing. this might be a dumb question, but will you be able to just send the bolt in and get it modified or do you have to send the whole rifle to make sure the headspacing is correct still? also, once the modification has been made would it be possible to order barrels from you pre-chambered that you could swap out at home with a barrel vice and action wrench? "

This would most likely be the direction we would go however, we need to figure out how much work would be needed and still have a desirable conversion for the consumer.

Mark
 
Here is an question. What kind of price range would you pay for a complete conversion? This conversion would include these services.

-Providing a new bolt head assembly
-Fitting it to the bolt
-Modifying the barrel to work with this assembly
-Ensuring the bolt stop assembly would work.


-How important is the gas check/block assembly to you?
-Would it be a deal breaker to have a Remington spring style extractor?
-How important is it to you to have an assembly that would drop into your rifle with out any barrel modification?


Mark
 
Mgordon said:
Here is an question. What kind of price range would you pay for a complete conversion? This conversion would include these services.

-Providing a new bolt head assembly
-Fitting it to the bolt
-Modifying the barrel to work with this assembly
-Ensuring the bolt stop assembly would work.


-How important is the gas check/block assembly to you?
-Would it be a deal breaker to have a Remington spring style extractor?
-How important is it to you to have an assembly that would drop into your rifle with out any barrel modification?


Mark
Click to expand...
To determine a price.... we would need to know price of the parts first, the rest is labor and options. You also have to consider getting the bolt refinished.
 
:eek:
At that point you are making a Remington 700 the same price as the Big Horn by the time you true it, custom recoil lug, and purchase a scope base.
 
This is a very interesting thread. I'd like to see a test. New 700, not trued in any way, new tube fired with several high grade match rounds. Same action with bolt then converted as above, same tube fitted, then fired again, same ammo (same lots). In an attempt to determine how much gain in accuracy was obtained. Then true the action, using the now modified bolt, run test again. In order to determine if any further gains were gotten, and if so-how much. I realize one action test is not a large enough sample etc. etc., I also realize there could be a variation based on previous rounds fired, how the barrel work was done etc. etc. etc. (for those that believe they are gifted by God to point these things out), but the test still would be very telling, and extremely interesting. If really significant gains were made, it may be worth repeating--new ground. It is easy to make claims about how good trueing is etc., but it is a much different thing to quantify it in a test. This modification may turn out to be the single best $$$$ spent in a quest for accuracy when working with a 700. I'm always amused when I read a story from a guy who sent his 700 off to a good gun smith, the smith, trued the action, installed a new tube, new recoil lug, super bedding job in a new stock, and mounted his new super-duper scope, etc. and it now shoots like a laser! When asked how much (percentage) each mod was good for in the now better accuracy depatment, he has no idea. Would it have shot as well if all you did was bed, and new scope, or new trigger and new scope? No one seems to know, or wants to know-because when their smith does all these things-their rifles shoot great. I had a smith that did all these things, and yes every gun he ever did for me shot great, but over the years I noticed he always wore a red shirt when ever I came to pick up my "new" rifle. I have often wondered if the wearing of that red shirt by my smith, added in some way to how well my rifles shot?
 
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Everyone knows that the red shirt is "game day" shirt...or he wears a red shirt every day. :)
 
These conversions have been going on for a long time by many different people out there. Stiller years ago did some prototype testing but concluded it wasn't worth it (for him anyway).
 
Interesting! I like this idea as a slick way to change bolt faces on a switch-barrel setup.

Is is possible to get the locking lugs without that notch nut in them? I think it's for the long actions and an anti-bind rail or something. I asked PTG about getting a bolt without this notch cut in the lug, and they said it would be a "full custom" bolt to get that.
 
Another step in the right direction along with the rem-age barrel nut idea.

No need for a Savage if you can just have all this work done to your Remington.

Heck, I see no reason these changes wouldn't make a Remington shoot like a Savage too. What a relief!
 
We will keep playing around with this idea and I think it would be a good idea if we put this bolt in a Rem 700 action that was not trued, then shoot it to see if there were any gains in accuracy and then shoot it with the factory bolt. The problem is at this time the dimensions do not match to allow the bolt to be swapped with no modification.

Mark
 
Mgordon said:
I can tell you with AJ's parts, we are looking at a $300-$400 plus conversion most likely.
Click to expand...

That's going to be a damn tough sale! I build on Remington's all the time and often thought how nice it would be to have the savage style bolt, but this is just way over the top on price in my most humble opinion.

Chuck
 
Mgordon said:
I can tell you with AJ's parts, we are looking at a $300-$400 plus conversion most likely.
Click to expand...


woof.... you just lost me.... if i can get a new 1 piece custom bolt from PTG for 170$ its defeats the practicality of swapping bolt heads..

swapping heads on a savage is 25 "stock" to 50$ "PTG".. thats whats makes it nice for switch barrels that need new heads
if the cost to mod exceeds the price of a new bolt, then im not see an advantage...
the theoretical advantage of benefits it offers for accuracy is just that... theoretical... unless you can take the same gun and shoot it with a normal bolt and a floating head and see it on paper..

you make great guns,,,,and considering the quality of your guns to start, im not seeing this making it better...
 
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