Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

[ronas]

I've been trying to check out the different seals used by gun safes and I've been skeptical that they can perform as represented. However, I may have found one that looks pretty promising. I think they have the right theory and are using a good product. I think they are using Palusol EFV.

Does this seal look like it may actually keep a lot ofsmoke from entering a safe?

 

[nobearsyet]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

I was a fireman for almost 2 years in a pretty good size town in Ohio and I got to tell you, don't beleive any of the "fireproof" safe BS, after they get hot all of the rubber gaskets melt and it doesn't matter what you have for a safe, after a fire your guns are gonna be toast. Trust me, I've seen it a bunch of times.

 

[RGraff]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

Palusol is an intumescent seal. This type of seal, in basic terms, expands when exposed to heat.

The problem many "gun safe" manufacturers create is that the gap between the inside door face and frame "step" is larger than the expansion ratio of the seal, thereby creating a gap for heat, smoke and water to enter. A loose door requires minimal or no fitting (read that fewer man hours) but negates the properties of the seal. A tight door fit takes longer to accomplish (more expensive to build).

Keep in mind that your safe and all it's seals are fire and heat "resistant". Nothing is proof, only differing limits of temperature and duration.

If memory serves, a gap of around 3mm is recommended by most seal manufacturers (depending on type) as a maximum. Those of you with gun safes or rsc's...grab your locked door and see if you can "rattle" it. Does the door move more than a few millimeters?

 

[RGraff]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

I should add one thing. Intumescent seals require heat to expand. I believe palusol needed somewhere between 200 and 250 deg. fahrenheit to activate. This is important to keep in mind because the time between room temp. and 250 deg. your safe is vulnerable at the door gap. Another important reason to require a tight door to frame fit.

Just sayin'.

 

[Gregch44]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RGraff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Palusol is an intumescent seal. This type of seal, in basic terms, expands when exposed to heat.

The problem many "gun safe" manufacturers create is that the gap between the inside door face and frame "step" is larger than the expansion ratio of the seal, thereby creating a gap for heat, smoke and water to enter. A loose door requires minimal or no fitting (read that fewer man hours) but negates the properties of the seal. A tight door fit takes longer to accomplish (more expensive to build).

Keep in mind that your safe and all it's seals are fire and heat "resistant". Nothing is proof, only differing limits of temperature and duration.

If memory serves, a gap of around 3mm is recommended by most seal manufacturers (depending on type) as a maximum. Those of you with gun safes or rsc's...grab your locked door and see if you can "rattle" it. Does the door move more than a few millimeters? </div></div>

Zero door movement on my Sturdy Gun Safe.

 

[ronas]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should add one thing. Intumescent seals require heat to expand. I believe palusol needed somewhere between 200 and 250 deg. fahrenheit to activate. This is important to keep in mind because the time between room temp. and 250 deg. your safe is vulnerable at the door gap. Another important reason to require a tight door to frame fit.</div></div>

I think the product used in the photo I attached in thread above is of Palusol EFV. The photo is of the new Summit safe, Everest EX model made by prosteel. Still uses drywall material in walls but somekind of ceramic product in top. Body of safe is 1/4" steel, while door is composite it has plate steel door too I forget how thick top layer is.

The Palusol EFV is described by the company selling it as fire hot and cold smoke seal. See link below.

http://www.odicefireprotectionproducts.com/palusol.html

 

[AnschutzNerd]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

Palusol?

Where can I buy a roll? Safe came without it.

AnschutzNerd

 

[secondstoryguy]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

The fireman up top is right. I was a locksmith for a number of years and have had to get into many gunsafes that have went through fires. Firesafes don't help much. Regardless of the quality of safe, most of the contents are in very bad shape. The location of the safe inside the structure can make a big difference, but in general you really wouldn't want what's left. Fires are way to hot for way to long and to top it off the firemen come and squirt 100000 gallons on top of everything ruining heat treats and soaking everything.

Several of my more affluent customers have asked me how to solve this problem and the only way I've found to do it is to buy a full sized fire rated gunsafe, turn it on it's side, install hydraulic assists on the door, and set it into a concrete floor/foundation with a cover coffin style. Heat goes up and everything stays safe. They do fill with water after a fire though, but nothing some oil and compressed air wouldn't solve.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

Absolutely correct...

After the heat and before the flood comes the super steam out from the liner, meant to protect paper, never intended for heat steel.

What is left, you won't want.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

What do you guys think about setting a lot of CO2 extinguishers on top of and around the safe. When the temp goes up the extinguishers burst releasing CO2 cooling the immediate area and hopefully cutting down the fire a little bit as the extinguishers go off?

 

[isptroop38]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

So, would the same hold true for a concrete gun room built into a home's foundation? Say a small room (5x10 or maybe bigger)with concrete walls, floor, and ceiling with a fireproof vault door made by the same companies that make the vaults.

Would the size of the room assist in keeping damage to a minimum or just make things worse?

Was planning to put one in a future "someday" home build....

 

[secondstoryguy]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

As long as the room is concrete and built below the level of the main structure you should be good. I learned this first hand when I was a kid. A big house on a hill near mine burned to ashes. I went poking around a few weeks later and stumbled on a trap door in the concrete foundation. I opened it and it revealed a ladder leading to a fully equipped 60's bomb shelter completely preserved with no damage from the fire. I was my lair for a while. Coolest fort any kid ever had.

 

[VKC]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

Fort Knox safes provide some of the greatest level of fire protection, 90 minutes at 1680F. Their's and many other safes seals are designed to swell and seal the safe with heat. I couldn't be happier with my Fort Knox.

 

[Blueclawz]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

Good idea - but an easier setup and more practical is HALON. Check around for a used system - marine use is heay so look there.

 

[fireEMT5]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

As a 20 yr. firefighter, here's my personal solution. Put safe in basement on a 4 inch riser. Have a floor drain in relatively close proximity. Finally install a fire sprinkler head above or close to your safe.

With city water pressure, an average sprinkler head will flow 25 gpm give or take. Floor drain will take care of that, if it can't quite keep up, the 4 inch riser buys some more time. Hopefully fire will be kept in check.

If the fire dept. arrives and pulls hose they'll usually put out most fires with a couple hundred gallons of water. If the fire is really ripping and the house it a total loss, then yes heat and a hell of alot of water are in order. This is what pictures and a good insurance policy are for.

In 20 years I can honestly say I've only been to a few fires where we filled the basement in which case the owner/occupants lost everything. In times like that just about any safe is FUBAR too.

Keeping your safe on the lowest possible level if you have a basement is a must. As mentioned above, heat rises. Also having a 600 - whatever pound safe on your floor joists isn't the best option, and it's a damn poor idea if I'm the one on the hose line trying to put out your fire in the room below your safe. This senario has the makings of a bad day.

Try to keep the fire load - anything combustible and not needed out of your safe room if you can. The less there is around your safe that can burn the better.

 

[secondstoryguy]

Re: Safe smoke and fire seal, triple seal

I think MP15s idea is an excellent solution.