Gunsmithing Saiga 12

gryphthemyth

gryphthemyth

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Minuteman
Feb 2, 2010
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Arion, Iowa
#1
I am in the process of getting a Saiga 12 and keep hearing about the "conversion" done on them. I get some of the basic concept of what some of this is (mod the receiver to bring the trigger group forward) but what is the point? what will not work on the saiga without the mod to the receiver? I see in all kinds of places like centerfire systems and others that sell saigas that sell kits for the saigas that say they fit all models. So what does this mod accomplish that is such a hot thing everyone is doing?
 
#2
Re: Saiga 12

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gryphthemyth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am in the process of getting a Saiga 12 and keep hearing about the "conversion" done on them. I get some of the basic concept of what some of this is (mod the receiver to bring the trigger group forward) but what is the point? what will not work on the saiga without the mod to the receiver? I see in all kinds of places like centerfire systems and others that sell saigas that sell kits for the saigas that say they fit all models. So what does this mod accomplish that is such a hot thing everyone is doing? </div></div>

You ask "what will not work on the Saiga without the mods"? If you just want a semi auto, mag fed shotgun then don't bother with any of the cosmetic mods & use it as is. If you want to have it run reliably with trap loads, you'll have to do a little tuning to it with a new gas plug ($30 to $40) & some other minor mods. http://forum.saiga-12.com/ is your friend here with a HUGE amount of info on the gun, mods & anything else you wanted to know.

Most of the other mods are cosmetic/functional in bringing the gun back to it's AK roots &/or helping it work in a competition arena. http://www.randrtargets.com/ are the boys for the go faster 3 gun Saiga along with others. HTH
 
#4
Re: Saiga 12

Just curious. Why 12 and not 20? Is there some degree of inadequacy about the 20 that disqualifies it?

I'm not being a wiseguy. I'm interested in the Saiga 20, and I honestly want to know if it has any genuine practical shortcomings.

Greg
 
#5
Re: Saiga 12

Hey Greg,

I don't find anything ballistically "inferior" about the 20ga for short ranges (i.e. - a HD setting) or for certain hunting purposes, but it just isn't a 12ga. By that, I simply mean the problem is the relative lack of support for the 20ga in terms of high-end ammo selections particularly for the "tactical" setting or 3-gun setting (where the Saiga's have really shined). Sure, there are some options that bring the 20ga into a real winning class (for example...20ga slugs will peform as well or outperform the 30/30 leverguns within 100yds), but the 12ga takes the cake in terms of having an enormous quantity of better buck shot loads, slugs and "light" loads from 2-3/4 through 3-1/2 loads compared to the 20ga.

I suppose it all comes down to the reason for the shotgun that best dictate whether 20ga or 12ga is the better option. If I were ONLY buying one for HD where my range is limited to maybe 10yds or so, or if I was thinking of a squirrel or small game shotgun, I would not hestitate one bit to go with the 20ga. I just personally prefer the versatility offered by the 12ga compared to the 20ga (even though I still run an old 870 Wingmaster and a Franchi 20ga regularly).
 
#6
Re: Saiga 12

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious. Why 12 and not 20? Is there some degree of inadequacy about the 20 that disqualifies it?

I'm not being a wiseguy. I'm interested in the Saiga 20, and I honestly want to know if it has any genuine practical shortcomings.

Greg </div></div>

The whole raison d'etre for the Saiga shotgun is the magazine that removes the fine motor skills that are required to quickly reload the multi shot shotgun. The 12 gauge version has a large following & multiple choices when it comes down to more than factory capacity mags. You can even get a 20 round drum for the 12 but not the 20. I know there are some folks in the industry that are looking/working on higher capacity mags for the 20 but we have yet to see them.

I personally love the 20 gauge shotgun in any variant & think it will do 85% of what the 12 will in general terms & 100% of what a 12 will do in 3 gun.

The main issue with the 20 is to do with heavier payloads & larger shot sizes. It's all to do with the diameter of the bore & allowing the pellets to smoothly flow down the tube. The larger shot size & the heavier the payload, the more congested the tube, the more the shot deforms & the poorer the pattern. About #2 is a large as you want to go with a 20 & #4 is prolly better. Slugs are a dream to shoot thru a 20 compared to some of the 12's I have shot.

Saiga 20's with higher capacity mags & some mods to make them a tad more user friendly would go a long way to bringing more females & juniors into the sport of 3 gun. Not to mention those of us who have an affliction, I mean affection, for the 20.
grin.gif
 
#8
Re: Saiga 12

My Charles Daly 20ga semi has an aftermarket extended rifled choke tube mounted (which is probably duplicated for the Saiga 20 by the Izmash 'Paradox' device), and does some interesting, perhaps counterintuitive things.

First, It swirls the Rem/Fed standard #4 buck load out to sweep an entire hallway by the time it reaches about 7 yards. That's a leadstorm containing 20-22 .22 caliber lead balls. That would spoil just about any bad guy's day just with the first shot.

Second, it shoots plain old Rem slugger rifled slugs into a 3" pattern at 70yd. That, I never expected to see.

BTW, I reworked an old 870 scope mount to put a dot scope atop the Charles Daly, and boy do they go together like hash 'n eggs...

Greg
 
#9
Re: Saiga 12

I have been using a Saiga for a couple of years that was built by JT Engineering (Jack Travers). He builds them/rebuilds them from the ground up and they are unbelievable. I don't have any photos on this PC but will post some later.
 
#11
Re: Saiga 12

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Decoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2zho6ti.jpg


Here is my open model. It now has a C-More STS and rock & lock lip to handle the 20 round drums. </div></div>

Decoy...did you have Millennium do your complete Saiga to your specs or is it their standard "Open" setup? Curious how you like their work on the Saigas and how it has performed thus far for you (and with what ammo)?

I have shot their Accutrac 2011 customs and they are the cat's meow for limited comp/steel challenge pistols, but I have never had a chance to wring out one of their shotguns.
 
#12
Re: Saiga 12

That is pretty sick. I am going to mess with mine stock for a little while and see the likes and dislikes on it. The big thing for me at the moment is figuring out the has to get dones and the it works fine as it is when it comes to customizing it.
 
#14
Re: Saiga 12

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gryphthemyth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't mind me asking, how much do you have invested in that package? </div></div>

The picture posted above is directly from Millennium Custom which is why I was curious about Decoy's experiences with the setup and whether it was stock or built to his specs. I think that they'll do just about anything a customer wants within reason on the Saiga platform, but here is a link to the "Open" package for the Saiga on a customer's gun (it ain't cheap):

http://www.mcguns.com/product-p/saigaopen.htm

Here is a link to their other offerings:

http://www.mcguns.com/category-s/51.htm
 
#15
Re: Saiga 12

Just to clear any misunderstandings, those Saigas were built by myself, Jack Travers (JT Engineering), using the shop at Millennium Custom. There wasn't supposed to be any affiliation with Millennium other than the fact I built them and sold them through the shop.

I have moved the business just outside of Fort Polk, LA and just short of being 100% Operational again.

That gun in the photo is somewhat old technology compared to where they are today and it is the property of Decoy, who is also a major manufacture in the Firearms Industry. It was one of the first ones built.

Jack Travers
JT Engineering
www.jtengineering.org
 
#16
Re: Saiga 12

Sorry for the late reply but I have been tied up in the shop.

You are correct that is the gun that is in the Millennium Customs photos but it is my gun that Jack built. Since it was one of the first open guns it has been changed a little.

It now has a rock and lock instead of a mag well but I change them back and forth depending on what type of match I am shooting. It's still setup for the Iron Man match which is a lot of ammo flying down range, so I went to the rock and lock to use the 20 round drum.

I also changed the stock out to reduce a little weight (current setup pictured here on the 3 gun nation website) http://www.3gunnation.com/news/P15/

It also has C-More STS now instead of the Docter sight that broke
frown.gif


As far as building it to my specs, Jack is the expert on these and I default to his suggestions. I don't normally pretend to know more than the expert but that is why I go to them in the first place.

Having said that....now that I have some time behind the gun, my next version is based on the 24" length Saiga and Jack has some new tricks up his sleeves to make it softer and more reliable. (more reliable means using a wider selection of ammo) We always discuss/make suggestions to improve it each time but ultimately it comes down to Jack. There was a learning curve on these guns since none of them are the same, dimensionally speaking and that is why he starts them from beginning.

I have never had anyone, anyone not rip off a mag and not have big smile on their face. They don't beleive it but they still smile.

I'll get another picture up of the current gun soon.

Since this was one of the development open guns I am not sure of the actual cost since there was a lot of horse trading and swearing going on.

Decoy
 
#18
Re: Saiga 12

Hey Jack and Mike,

I appreciate the info and the clarifications re: the Saigas/JT Engineering/Millennium/Schuemann/etc.

Jack...I have your site bookmarked now and I may be getting in touch with you once you are up and running 100%. I have been lusting over a custom Saiga build for some time and this may be the gentle "kick" in the shorts I need to get me moving in the right direction on it.

Mike...I give Schuemann credit where credit is due!!! The Accutrac Limit 6" I got to play around with earlier this year was just plain scary both in terms of accuracy and how silky smooth it was!!! I am sure that Schuemann's barrels are responsible for a huge amount of the accuracy that Millennium is obtaining from these pistols.

Thanks again, Gents.
 
#21
Re: Saiga 12

I have a Saiga 12 that I have modified myself that only took about 2.5 hours. You move the trigger forward to engage the hammer. By doing that you get rid of the linkage that connected the two pieces so it is a regular 2 piece trigger group.

I have shot everything from 3" slugs to cheap Wallmart federal bulk and the only hiccup it ever done was when i left a full 12 rd mag loaded and the bolt forward with a round in the chamber. The next round presses against the underside of the bolt and becomes oval over time. Failure to feed. Other than that it is flawless and like Decoy said I to have never had someone at the range or a friend try a 10 round mag or 20 round drum and not grin fiendishly.

If you do go to the http://forum.saiga-12.com/ it will be well worth your time. Some of the tutorials and info on 922r Compliance is worth the visit alone.
 
#24
Re: Saiga 12

Hey Craig!

Here is a quick video of testing a customer shotgun and just playing at the range with the new generation "Open Division" guns. I am down to 150 lbs, so the recoil management is all technique. That is what the new video will be about (not this one). Terry Cross is right up the road and I will have him shooting shotguns here pretty soon!
smile.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9u-w_8pIO4
 
#25
Re: Saiga 12

Looking at this prior vid, I am wondering if I'm seeing anything that can't be as effectively accomplished with a 20ga.

Am I pushin' on a rope, or is there something I'm missing by lookin' in from the outside?

Also, as a denizen of the PRofNY, I am limited to 10rounders. Such critters exist for 12ga and/or 20ga?

Greg
 
#26
Re: Saiga 12

Greg,

I have tried to develop the 20 gauge, but it just is not as effective as the 12, nor are the parts availability, ammunition quite as available as they are for the 12.

My target goal with ammunition is basically the same for the 12 as the 20: 1350-1400 FPS with a 3/4 to 7/8 oz load. High velocity with a tight pattern, transfers excellent energy to the target. That is what makes these particular guns run so fast and flat. Also, manufactures velocities tend to be at least 100 - 150 FPS less than stated. The 20 gauge velocities are worse, so now they are no longer knocking down heavy steel in competition, which the 12 will.

There is no longer that big of weight difference, the 12 shoots just as soft as a 20, so there really isn't any point in developing the 20 gauge at this time.

I was building two 20's for the two top woman shooters, but we are back with 12's now.

Jack
 
#27
Re: Saiga 12

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at this prior vid, I am wondering if I'm seeing anything that can't be as effectively accomplished with a 20ga.

Am I pushin' on a rope, or is there something I'm missing by lookin' in from the outside?

Also, as a denizen of the PRofNY, I am limited to 10rounders. Such critters exist for 12ga and/or 20ga?

Greg </div></div>

Simply a matter of why use a platform that is more difficult to feed, develop, get parts for, etc etc.

Yes the .20 can do it but it takes much more work to make and keep one competitive.
 
#28
Re: Saiga 12

Ok I get it. We're talking about a discipline where power factor has a real bearing. Thanks for taking the time to cater my ignorance.

My interest in the 20ga goes back to some physical issues I bring to the table.

Some years back, I was trying to sight in a 12ga 870 with Copper Solids and a faulty scope. 20 or so rounds into it, I bailed, and was black and blue for a week. Not very into S/G's at the time, I got a real dislike for the 870 and Copper Solids. I'm certain my technique sucked and provided a large part of my discomfort.

Then I underwent heart surgery, and early in the recovery, developed a post-op infection that required some pretty heavy duty internal machinations. I had also sneezed and ripped out my sternum wires. So the upshot was a sternum reconstruction that involved bone grafts. Where most folks have cartilege in the center, I have rigid bone, and it's a tad fragile too.

So recoil's not at the top of my menu.

Hence my infatuation with the 20. I liked the Saiga from the minute I saw my Buddy's S12. I'd love to follow up on the Ladies' 20ga's, but between a future involving significant medical debt and an income built around SSD, that's not a significant part of any reality. I make do with a Charles Daley Semi 20, and it works fine. It the gas system <span style="font-style: italic">does</span> foul up a tad fast, though.

Greg
 
#29
Re: Saiga 12

I think if you shoot one of Jack's guns with the muzzle break and light loads you might be surprised. With the Saiga, most of the recoil is handled in the pistol grip and with the different springs it is sooooo much smoother and lighter than you would expect. He might be able to set one up to meet your needs, you can always talk to him about it.

I guess you would really need to try a good Saiga that is setup properly before you can tell if it will work for you or not. I will have one or two with me at the US National Steel Championship in Titusville this March if you want to shoot one, I'll be happy to let you test drive one.
 
#30
Re: Saiga 12

Greg I took a good friend of mine yesterday as a matter of fact to the range and he tried my S12. He weighs maybe 160 soaking wet if lucky. With good grip on the pistol grip and leaning forward he took a 10 round mag and made the target dissappear. He told me it was actually very easy with little recoil and that was with winchester rifled slugs. My S12 is modified with a break.
If you were interested in the S20 they have a modification kit for that average price 120.00. All the parts you basically would need to do it yourself. It is not hard. CSS has videos on site.

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-CONVERSION-KITS-cln-SAIGA-410-&-20/Categories
 
#31
Re: Saiga 12

Staying North this Winter. But the CSS reference is good. Much thanks for your help.

I won't be poor forever, as long as I can live long enough. Them bills will end up getting paid off <span style="font-style: italic">some</span> day. When that happens, I'll be looking more seriously into an S20, a nice .30-'06 F Classer, and maybe something like a Saiga 100/.30-'06.

Truth be told, after owning an AR Match Target, I don't think 1.5-2MOA is all that terrible after all, shooting in a real world. I think that maybe those same neato tricky things that work with the S20 could be made to work with the S100. Wouldn't <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> be a hoot?

Greg
 
#32
Re: Saiga 12

anyone know where I can view a video of converting the saiga by putting in the weld on plate? The trigger conversion not a problem but I am getting hung up on which way to go with the buttstock.
 
#33
#34
Re: Saiga 12

Thanks, videos were pretty good. Should be an easy task. One more question I have on this subject, anyone have experience with the hydraulic stock tubes some people are putting on these? I am eyeing the enidine one for collapsible AR stacks.
 
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