Suppressors SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

[dvdt]

This is my first trip to the Form1 SBR rodeo...

I have a couple of Noveske Gen2 stripped lowers. I need to get them engraved and ready for the Form1 process.

I'm trying to read ATF Form 5300.4 (pg #92) and it looks like I need the caliber or gage on the receiver in addition to my trust name and city/state.

From the factory, Noveske isn't putting the caliber or gage on the receivers.

Is this an extra piece I need to have engraved when I goto my engraving shop ?

If I need them to add that as part of the engraving, what should I have my engraving guys put on there ?

This is ultimately going to be a 223 (556 chambering). Should I put 556 on it to avoid confusion down the road ? I'm probably OCD'ing out on this too much but I could see my barrel being stamped 5.56 Nato and the receiver and Form1 say 223 and getting screwed somehow.

Thanks for any help.

 

[TheGonz]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

All you need to put is FULL trust name City, st at prescribed depths and heights. Wish I would have known that beforehand cuz I would have shortened my trust name. Make sure you get it engraved BEFORE you send of the papers or at least before you get the papers back. Otherwise, "technically" you will have to transfer it to you enscriber if they plan on holding it for a while

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

You'll need your first name, last name, city and state engraved on the lower. The information provided by the original creator of the lower identifying the model and caliber will suffice in that matter. If you are utilizing a trust, the trust name would be in the place of your full name, then city and state

John Michael Snuffy
Fort Asscrack, AL

or

Snuffy Michael Snuffy
Revocable Trust
Fort Asscrack, AL

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All you need to put is FULL trust name City, st at prescribed depths and heights. Wish I would have known that beforehand cuz I would have shortened my trust name. Make sure you get it engraved BEFORE you send of the papers or at least before you get the papers back. Otherwise, "technically" you will have to transfer it to you enscriber if they plan on holding it for a while </div></div>

Not true. Regardless of whether or not you have the lower engraved before, or after, your form has cleared has no bearing on it's status. Read the requirements for an SBR. It must be an ASSEMBLED AND COMPLETE firearm to meet these requirements. If you're sending off a stripped lower, or partially completed lower, after the form is approved you're GTG. I would WAIT until your form is cleared before you send it off for engraving. If there is a problem with your form and you need to change the engraving...you're screwed if it's already complete.

 

[lazy21]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

Off a form 1

a. Name and Location of Original Manufacturer of Firearm (Receiver) (If prototype, furnish plans and specifications) (See Instruction 2i)

i. Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number . If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g.

Did you get a block of aluminum and make that lower? That being said....You are not the original manufacturer so no extra engraving is needed.

 

[lazy21]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All you need to put is FULL trust name City, st at prescribed depths and heights. Wish I would have known that beforehand cuz I would have shortened my trust name. Make sure you get it engraved BEFORE you send of the papers or at least before you get the papers back. Otherwise, "technically" you will have to transfer it to you enscriber if they plan on holding it for a while </div></div>

Not true. Regardless of whether or not you have the lower engraved before, or after, your form has cleared has no bearing on it's status. Read the requirements for an SBR. It must be an ASSEMBLED AND COMPLETE firearm to meet these requirements. If you're sending off a stripped lower, or partially completed lower, after the form is approved you're GTG. I would WAIT until your form is cleared before you send it off for engraving. If there is a problem with your form and you need to change the engraving...you're screwed if it's already complete. </div></div>

hate to bust your bubble but that is not correct! Once a form clears it is now a nfa item, unless you're going to be there while they're engraving it. They'll be in illegal possession of a NFA item.

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All you need to put is FULL trust name City, st at prescribed depths and heights. Wish I would have known that beforehand cuz I would have shortened my trust name. Make sure you get it engraved BEFORE you send of the papers or at least before you get the papers back. Otherwise, "technically" you will have to transfer it to you enscriber if they plan on holding it for a while </div></div>

Not true. Regardless of whether or not you have the lower engraved before, or after, your form has cleared has no bearing on it's status. Read the requirements for an SBR. It must be an ASSEMBLED AND COMPLETE firearm to meet these requirements. If you're sending off a stripped lower, or partially completed lower, after the form is approved you're GTG. I would WAIT until your form is cleared before you send it off for engraving. If there is a problem with your form and you need to change the engraving...you're screwed if it's already complete. </div></div>

hate to bust your bubble but that is not correct! Once a form clears it is now a nfa item, unless you're going to be there while they're engraving it. They'll be in illegal possession of a NFA item. </div></div>

NOPE! Contact your local ATF office and get clarification from them face-to-face, and then in writing (as I have done) and come back to us. IT IS NOT an NFA item if it is NOT A COMPLETE FIREARM. There are 100+ engravers around the country engraving for thousands of folks who have approved forms and awaiting the return of their lower from the engraver POST form approval.

I SAT THROUGH AN ATF INSPECTION OF A VERY WELL KNOWN COMMERCIAL AND THIS WAS ONCE AGAIN CLARIFIED. Too many people caught up in what IS ACTUALLY AN NFA item. Yup, it's on the NFA register. IT MUST STILL MEET THE NFA REQUIREMENTS FOR A WEAPON...SBR in this case...TO BE CONSIDERED A SHORT BARRELED RIFLE.

 

[dvdt]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

Thanks for all of the replies. We have a great community here.

I'm going to use Ident Marking here in the Dallas area. I won't be mailing it off. It will be a stripped lower for them to engrave. Hopefully that will make my life easier.

So my only concern here is that the lower from Noveske does <span style="text-decoration: underline">NOT</span> have a caliber engraved on it already. Is that going to be a problem ?

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dvdt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all of the replies. We have a great community here.

I'm going to use Ident Marking here in the Dallas area. I won't be mailing it off. It will be a stripped lower for them to engrave. Hopefully that will make my life easier.

So my only concern here is that the lower from Noveske does <span style="text-decoration: underline">NOT</span> have a caliber engraved on it already. Is that going to be a problem ?



</div></div>

dvdt

I apologize if I got a animated on my inputs above. Have the kind people at Ident (I've used them a couple times) explain the before/after engraving process to you when you make your visit. If they stick to the strict BATFE requirements you'l want to identify the caliber in which it was registered. You can run another upper of a different length or caliber on that lower at a later time as long as you can return the weapon to it's original registered configuration. If you do a permenant overall length change/caliber change that's a notification (form) to the BATFE. Have fun and enjoy!

 

[TenZero]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

I have heard recently that 'Cal-multi' is now an ATF no go. Can anyone clarify? Is it just the 'Multi' on the paperwork they don't like, or should I not use a 'multi' stamped lower to start my SBR experience? Thanks in advance.

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

The multi call marked lower is fine...but you'll need to identify the caliber you intend to register the lower on the Form 1. I tried the muli-cal route on the form...was sent back. Two week turn around and I had my form 1 back in hand.

 

[rbdub474]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All you need to put is FULL trust name City, st at prescribed depths and heights. Wish I would have known that beforehand cuz I would have shortened my trust name. Make sure you get it engraved BEFORE you send of the papers or at least before you get the papers back. Otherwise, "technically" you will have to transfer it to you enscriber if they plan on holding it for a while </div></div>

Not true. Regardless of whether or not you have the lower engraved before, or after, your form has cleared has no bearing on it's status. Read the requirements for an SBR. It must be an ASSEMBLED AND COMPLETE firearm to meet these requirements. If you're sending off a stripped lower, or partially completed lower, after the form is approved you're GTG. I would WAIT until your form is cleared before you send it off for engraving. If there is a problem with your form and you need to change the engraving...you're screwed if it's already complete. </div></div>

hate to bust your bubble but that is not correct! Once a form clears it is now a nfa item, unless you're going to be there while they're engraving it. They'll be in illegal possession of a NFA item. </div></div>

Any FFL can do gunsmithing/repair work on Title II weapons. Engraving will fall under this.

 

[rbdub474]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Off a form 1

a. Name and Location of Original Manufacturer of Firearm (Receiver) (If prototype, furnish plans and specifications) (See Instruction 2i)

i. Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number . If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g.

Did you get a block of aluminum and make that lower? That being said....You are not the original manufacturer so no extra engraving is needed. </div></div>

The original manufacturer made the Title I firearm. The person/entity listed on the form 1 is the manufacturer of the Title II weapon, so they need to engrave the receiver with the proper information, which would be the name, either personal name, trust or corporation and city and state. They can use the original serial number if they wish.

 

[bronson90]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

These guys can all argue until they are blue in the face about it and it doesn't help to call as you will get different answers each time depending on whom you speak too...

I mailed my Form 1 on March 13th, it went pending on April 12th, the receiver was engraved on April 27th and I received stamp back on August 15th...

Section 479.102 in the 2005 ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (5300.4) clearly states the engraving requirements; see below... I'd highly recommend using an someone whom is intimately familiar with the NFA engraving requirements as there are plenty available. I hope this helps and good luck!!!

 

[lazy21]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

And thats the problem B, depending on who you talk to you always get a freaking different answer. From what I was told, lets use this as a example:


you buy lower(POF), it does say POF on it right? that's the MFG

Then under POF you have Glendale AZ. That's the city and state it asked for

to finish it off, you have the serial # on the lower.

That being said, you have all the required engraving done. Again, the form 1 ask for a. Name and Location of <span style="color: #990000">Original Manufacturer of Firearm </span>(Receiver) (If prototype, furnish plans and specifications) (See Instruction 2i)

Now let's say I a machinist...I want to make me a SBR/can

on 4a:

I will put my trust name, city and state, and serial #.

 

[aur0ra145]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

This is very intriguing. I just bought two lowers and didn't have a plan for the second one...

What is the proper/polite way to go about getting a signature from local law enforcement?

 

[bronson90]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And thats the problem B, depending on who you talk to you always get a freaking different answer. From what I was told, lets use this as a example:


you buy lower(POF), it does say POF on it right? that's the MFG

Then under POF you have Glendale AZ. That's the city and state it asked for

to finish it off, you have the serial # on the lower.

That being said, you have all the required engraving done. Again, the form 1 ask for a. Name and Location of <span style="color: #990000">Original Manufacturer of Firearm </span>(Receiver) (If prototype, furnish plans and specifications) (See Instruction 2i)

Now let's say I a machinist...I want to make me a SBR/can

on 4a:

I will put my trust name, city and state, and serial #.



</div></div>
Since mine is a GAP-10 lower I used the existing serial number and just put my trust name and city on the opposite side as seen in the picture below...

 

[dddoo7]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aur0ra145</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is very intriguing. I just bought two lowers and didn't have a plan for the second one...

What is the proper/polite way to go about getting a signature from local law enforcement? </div></div>

In my county, I just call up there and let them know that I am coming. Sometimes they have me drop off the forms, sometimes they sign them while I wait. It is a normal thing for them to do, so it shouldn't be an issue unless the Sheriff just doesn't want to sign them. My sheriff is a "gun nut" and will gladly sign forms for any law abiding citizen. Even when I left them with them, they never had them for more than a few hours before they called me to come get them.

As far as finger prints go, my sheriff's office does those as well at no charge. I just have to call the lady in charge of that and make an appointment. If you know you are going to have several form 4's (or 1's) going through in the next few months, just get several copies of the finger print cards so that you don't have to do that the next time.

 

[aur0ra145]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bronson90</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And thats the problem B, depending on who you talk to you always get a freaking different answer. From what I was told, lets use this as a example:


you buy lower(POF), it does say POF on it right? that's the MFG

Then under POF you have Glendale AZ. That's the city and state it asked for

to finish it off, you have the serial # on the lower.

That being said, you have all the required engraving done. Again, the form 1 ask for a. Name and Location of <span style="color: #990000">Original Manufacturer of Firearm </span>(Receiver) (If prototype, furnish plans and specifications) (See Instruction 2i)

Now let's say I a machinist...I want to make me a SBR/can

on 4a:

I will put my trust name, city and state, and serial #.



</div></div>
Since mine is a GAP-10 lower I used the existing serial number and just put my trust name and city on the opposite side as seen in the picture below...</div></div>

Are you in Denton county perchance, did you go to the sheriff's office or your municipal PD? Also, where do you shoot at? Quail Creek is about 3 miles from my home, I really haven't adventured out to any other ranges yet.

 

[dvdt]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

Thanks for all of the replies. Good info there.

rbdub474 - thanks for stating that in simple terms. That helps out quite a bit.


As I read pg #92 from 5300.4, it looks like :

2ii - "The caliber or guage"

So if my Noveske Gen2 stripped lower doesn't have a caliber/guage engraved on it, seems like I need to get that added.

Is it acceptable to engrave "Caliber 5.56 MM" ?

 

[Charger442]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

i am also very interested in this question as well. I have been led to believe if it has a caliber on it from the factory, you can use that designation and dont have to engrave a caliber. if its Multi or not listed, dont you have to put a caliber under your name or trust name and city?

 

[Whole Bunches]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

This is MY opinion and the action I took in making a Form 1 SBR. The NFA Handbook by ATF (contents come from CFR) states, "7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(2) The caliber or gauge"

My 300 BLK barrel came from Delta Co Arms. It had no caliber markings on it (maybe they forgot to mark it, but they are out of business now). To comply with MY reading of the law, and since there is no such caliber of "multi" (try and find a box of "multi" caliber ammo other than 5 in 1 blanks), I needed to have my barrel or receiver marked with the caliber. KISS Tactical normally marks their billet AR receivers "multi". With input from interested buyers, KISS got an ATF marking variance to do a small run of their receivers marked "300 AAC BLACKOUT" instead of "multi" for those of us wanting to do Form 1 SBRs in 300 BLK that either wanted the receiver so marked or needed the caliber markings. I was part of the group buy of such marked receivers and have serial number 300-0006. KISS also engraved our name/trust name/city/state on them prior to anodizing for those of us making SBRs; looks VERY professional. ATF also approved the serial number scheme for them. That satisfied the caliber marking requirement in my case of an unmarked barrel. Otherwise, I would have had my barrel caliber marked.

To sell/make an AR lower marked "multi" is perfectly acceptable, as without a barrel, there is no caliber. Many companies sell complete ARs with lowers marked "multi"; this is fine as the actual caliber will be marked on the barrel to comply with the law. Likewise, take the TC Contender. The caliber is not marked on the receiver, it's on the barrel. Many many other guns also have the caliber marked on other than the serial numbered receiver.

To summarize: The law, not me, says the caliber or gauge has to be on the receiver or barrel. "Multi" is not a caliber or gauge. Normally the maker of the barrel will have the caliber marked on it which satisfies the caliber marking requirement, thus a non-issue. If yes, no problem. If no and the Form 1 listed caliber is not on the receiver either, you will need the caliber marked on the receiver or barrel. Again, most barrels will already have the caliber marked on them, so no problem, no additional marking needed. If you have the barrel shortened (and the caliber marking is removed in the cut off portion) you may need the caliber marking redone, depending upon what is marked on the receiver.

I am confident with the route I took in making a SBR. I also doubt ATF is going to visit or ask every SBR owner to come in and show their caliber markings. ATF did visit me at work once, long ago when I was in the Navy, but that's another story.

 

[Scott Neville]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All you need to put is FULL trust name City, st at prescribed depths and heights. Wish I would have known that beforehand cuz I would have shortened my trust name. Make sure you get it engraved BEFORE you send of the papers or at least before you get the papers back. Otherwise, "technically" you will have to transfer it to you enscriber if they plan on holding it for a while </div></div>

Not true. Regardless of whether or not you have the lower engraved before, or after, your form has cleared has no bearing on it's status. Read the requirements for an SBR. It must be an ASSEMBLED AND COMPLETE firearm to meet these requirements. If you're sending off a stripped lower, or partially completed lower, after the form is approved you're GTG. I would WAIT until your form is cleared before you send it off for engraving. If there is a problem with your form and you need to change the engraving...you're screwed if it's already complete. </div></div>

hate to bust your bubble but that is not correct! Once a form clears it is now a nfa item, unless you're going to be there while they're engraving it. They'll be in illegal possession of a NFA item. </div></div>

Incorrect. Its only an SBR with the short barrel attached. And if they are a class 2 manufacture, they are fine on their end anyway.

 

[biffj]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

Mostly there is a lot of misinformation and partial information out there. The regs allow you to put the cal, makers name and address, and model on the barrel, frame or receiver. The serial number must be on the receiver and only there. What this means to you is that you can leave your noveske lower as it is and put all your info on the barrel or upper. Legal, proper and simple to do. It keeps you from messing up a nice lower with info that is annoying when you go to sell it in a few years with a long barreled upper on it.

You can engrave a title one firearm with whatever the hell you want so if you send it off to an engraver before your forms come back its not big deal. If you wait til the forms come back and send the stripped lower its the same...no big deal. ATF has some pretty good info on their site about SBR's and SBS's concerning the status of parts unassembled.

Next thing is, for an NFA firearm there is no such thing as multi-cal and there never has been. It is a requirement to have a cal for an NFA firearm and while we've all seen HK sears registered in 3 cal's and other stuff with more than one it won't fly now. Pick one and then swap all you want. The regs don't say you can't switch cals only that they would like you to inform them of permanent changes. That means stuff like swapping the barrel out of your SBR rem 700 or other difficult to swap rifle. For an AR there is pretty much no such thing as a permanent change in cal. You can legally put any cal upper on it you want up to .50 cal. Over that size needs to be registered as a DD but thats another story. So knock yourself out, mark the lower,upper or barrel with everything but the serial number. That must be on the receiver.

Send a complete NFA firearm to any licensed gunsmith or manufacturer legally and without a transfer. The ATF clarified this some years back stating that sending an NFA firearm for repair is not a transfer. You no longer need to file a form 5 for repair though they do recommend that you use one. Just like the notification of permanent changes in cal, bbl length or any other feature, form 5's are an option that they would like you to use but don't require.

Hope that helps

Frank

 

[teerex]

Re: SBR engraving question - noveske gen2 lower

There is lots of bad info out there. A lower cannot be an NFA item. It is only NFA when it is configured as NFA. You do need the barrel to be marked with the caliber if the lower says multi. All of my AR barrels are marked on the barrel so that is also not an issue.