LWRC IC-A5 lower with Geissele SSA/E trigger I love. Would like to use this lower w/a PWS MK109 MOD 2 .300BLK 9.75” upper. My range is across state lines (30min from where I live). Considering Form 1 for SBR of my lower however have been told this is not a good decision compared to an Aero Precision pistol lower with brace. Apparently I have to call or write Sheriffs, ATF etc if I want to go to my range with the SBR? But, if I buy a pistol lower then I need nothing and have total freedom? Am I understanding this correctly? What am I missing here, this seems absurd to me. I don’t want or need a pistol lower, my preference is to use my awesome LWRC lower w/SSA/E. If it means constantly writing the ATF and local LEO however I want to avoid that if possible. Thank you for your insight, DB
- Thread starter Dakotabob
- Start date
No, you don’t.
You submit a Form 5320.20
This allows you to take your SBR across State lines. You can submit one form for multiple trips over, say, a year.
The form takes a couple of minutes to fill out, can be submitted by email and comes back approved in a couple weeks.
There is no fee for this.
There is nothing else required.
Not needing a 5320.20 is the gayest reason for going with a pistol instead of a SBR.
You submit a Form 5320.20
This allows you to take your SBR across State lines. You can submit one form for multiple trips over, say, a year.
The form takes a couple of minutes to fill out, can be submitted by email and comes back approved in a couple weeks.
There is no fee for this.
There is nothing else required.
Not needing a 5320.20 is the gayest reason for going with a pistol instead of a SBR.
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Not needing a 5320.20 is the gayest reason for going with a pistol instead of a SBR.
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Form 5320.20 is no big deal, have done several. But - in most states your SBR has to be transported unloaded and not assessable (In the trunk). if you have your CCW permit a pistol can go loaded and within reach.
OFG
Not needing a 5320.20 is the gayest reason for going with a pistol instead of a SBR.
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Form 5320.20 is no big deal, have done several. But - in most states your SBR has to be transported unloaded and not assessable (In the trunk). if you have your CCW permit a pistol can go loaded and within reach.
OFG
Thank you so much Gasgun for your reply. I was not aware of the Form 5320.20. This does not sound like a major hassle at all. From your note it seems like this would be redone each year? This makes me feel like I can definitely use my lower. Before I purchase the new upper am I correct that I need to complete the Form 1 on the ATF website? I have been using the eforms.atf.gov site and I do have a trust. Is this electronic/trust version the recommended best/fastest way to go? I waited far over a year for my last batch of suppressors and am hoping the wait will be nowhere near that long. Thanks again Gasgun
oldfatguy I just saw your post thank you for this important information. I do have my CCW permit. My plan given this new information is not to go with a pistol lower after all, but to have my LWRC lower with its original 14.7" (pinned/welded brake) 5.56 piston upper on it while transporting. The 9.75" upper will be in the same case but will not be attached while traveling. Then when at the range I will swap the uppers. How would this work for regulations? Also, similarly to my suppressors will I be required to bring all Form 1 and Form 5320 photocopies and have them ready at all times
Question for you: does that 14.7" include the length of the permanently attached muzzle device? If it does, you have a Short Barreled Rifle subject to the NFA.
And even if that 14.7" upper is actually 16" or over once you include the muzzle device, you're still transporting an SBR if you have a separate 9.75" upper and a rifle lower with you.
Tread very carefully here.
Personally, as long as the braced pistol is an option, fuck the NFA. The less the government is involved in my life the better.
The receiver (lower) is what is registered as an SBR; IF it is NOT registered as such and you have a upper with a barrel less than 16" that can be assembled to the lower, THEN you "constructive possession" of a NFA firearm which is illegal. IF the lower is registered you can have several short uppers that can be swapped about, however the upper barrel length that was cited on Form 1 / 4 has to be present at all times so that the original NFA item can be re-assembled as registered with its documentation "to be made available to any ATF officer upon request" (not any other LEO, but don't push your luck !)
“Once a rifle, always a rifle”. 14.7” with pinned & welded muzzle device looks like a legal 16” rifle. Therefore the lower can NEVER be a pistol lower. So either do the SBR & 5320.20 paperwork or buy a separate pistol lower.
OFG
I realize that. The OP's statements are confusing, that's why I was asking/commenting.
At the end of the day though, if I buy a stripped lower and LPK how can someone ever determine whether it ever belonged to a rifle or a pistol?
Thank you 308pirate, oldfatguy, strikeeagle1 andRyanScott for sharing your knowledge and advice.
I wanted to clear this up, the existing upper is 14.7" + pinned/welded Surefire suppressor adapter brake = total length is over 16". For now the lower is not registered as SBR but its original configuration was rifle.
My understanding is that manufacturer can be contacted by the ATF referencing the serial number of the lower, they will then share the configuration that the lower first shipped as (rifle/pistol). OFG your advice on either going SBR + 5320.20 or buying the pistol lower/brace is where I am at presently. I would rather keep my great lower I have no desire to change it. Except, 308pirate, as you so accurately mention
. I think that I will SBR my lower for now and then take it from there. I am working on the 5320.23 now (required for the Form 1). I have not yet downloaded a 5320.20 but plan to read and re-read the instructions and laws. I am still uncertain re: specific state laws where I will be driving to and from the range. Last, for the form 1, I am realizing that I (think I) have to get my fingerprints done again? I already did all this for my suppressor applications. Are fingerprints kept on file or does this have to be done again every time? What a PITA. Thanks again all for sharing your experience. There is a ton of misinformation out there, some of my local shops had no idea what they were talking about.
What's giving me pause is that the price of a pistol lower receiver from Aero is $354.99. This includes a SB Tactical SBA3 Brace. I have no idea if the trigger is any good (definitely not as good as the SSA/E). But this is only $150 and change more than the tax stamp, not to mention zero waiting time, no need for form 1 and 5320.23 and fingerprints and regular 5320.20. Also no need to have paperwork and original upper available upon request. This entire set of laws re: SBR is insane. I wish that I could just use my existing rifle lower on a 10" upper. It's basically the same thing as w/the Aero with brace anyway. These laws need to change IMHO.
Every stripped lower I have ever purchased was listed on the 4473 as "Lower" Rifle or Pistol was not designated. I bring them home, slap my pistol upper on it, and now it's a pistol, just to make the invisible ATF guy happy.
Thanks for your thoughts D1gger. I was told that if it was purchased as a rifle then I'm not allowed to use it w/a pistol upper w/o the Form 1. When I asked how they could know, I was told that the serial number is connected to manufacturer data re: its configuration. This could be false information. That said I don't want to mistakenly break the law which in this case it seems incredibly easy to do (even having them in "close proximity" is "intent to build" apparently). I found the below document to be one of the more helpful in assisting me towards understanding the insanity. The two paragraphs below are my main takeaways https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download
"if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."
"Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol...)
"if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."
"Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol...)
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I would agree. If you purchase it as a rifle, then you need to do as described to make it a SBR or a pistol. To be honest, I've never purchased a complete AR. I always put them together myself
Might need to verify, but my understanding is that when the 4473 is originally filled in by the FFL, he selects the receiver’s use (Rifle, Pistol or Multi). Personally, I did the SBR e-form and had my tax stamp in 11 days. A local guy did a great laser engraving inside the trigger guard, and my little Sig piston upper has performed above expectations. If you don’t need a collapsible stock, the pistol option may be useful. As it is, I figure ATFE will end up outlawing the pistol configuration anyway. Since they have me on the radar from suppressor purchases, I don’t try to hide anything. But, those Glock autosears look like felonious fun
No, you can put a 16” barrel on an SBR that started as a rifle (no pistol or AOW) and sell it as a Title 1 rifle if you want.
^^That's correct. For a shoulder stock firearm with a rifle cartridge and a barrel that is 16"+ and OAL is 26" then it's a common rifle regardless of its original DNA.
Isn't that done at the dealer on the 4473? Or am I wrong about that? If so then it may be a bitch to find out but not impossible. Either way. Get it one way or the other. Or Form1 it whatever it is.
Form 5320.20 is no big deal, have done several. But - in most states your SBR has to be transported unloaded and not assessable (In the trunk). if you have your CCW permit a pistol can go loaded and within reach.
OFG
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Where do you have to have it disassembled in the trunk? Not WA?
Yeah, but it's gonna have your name/trust and city/state engraved on it too unless you wanna mess with filling it in.
You'd literally be throwing $200 away to do this, but in an emergency or maybe certain transfers upon death, it may be easier to do this way...
You could always include the old tax stamp, make up some shit on Word (like the Franklin Mint, you know, "authentic replica" type shit in fine print) and sell it for 4x the $$$$ on GB by saying "SOCOM" and "SEAL" and "OAF" etc. I bet they'll bite.
Where do you have to have it disassembled in the trunk? Not WA?
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Not “disassembled” but not “accessible“.
