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SBR or not to SBR

SBR or not to SBR

  • Total voters
    60
jMarine

jMarine

YUUUT!
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2022
417
479
Alabama
I recently bought a MK18 "mod 3" URGI and was going to SBR another lower of mine for it to have a permanent home. For now, I have been running it on an SBR'ed lower I already owned, but now the upper that belongs on that one is lonely and sad because it's missing its other half! However, I am conflicted on whether or not I should, at this moment in time, given the bullshit going on with pistol braces. What's the chance SBRs get removed from NFA in the near future? Is it dumb to register any more shit than what already is registered of mine to the AFT.

Help a brother decide.
 
jMarine said:
I recently bought a MK18 "mod 3" URGI and was going to SBR another lower of mine for it to have a permanent home. For now, I have been running it on an SBR'ed lower I already owned, but now the upper that belongs on that one is lonely and sad because it's missing its other half! However, I am conflicted on whether or not I should, at this moment in time, given the bullshit going on with pistol braces. What's the chance SBRs get removed from NFA in the near future? Is it dumb to register any more shit than what already is registered of mine to the AFT.

Help a brother decide.
Click to expand...
Zero chance. Just SBR it
 
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_Windrider_ said:
I mean especially if tax stamps r free right now because of the pistol brace thing. SBR everything
Click to expand...

Could one buy a stripped lower and take advantage of the "free" tax stamp, or is it only for existing owners of pistol AR-15'S?
 
kthomas said:
SBR it.

In the near future I plan on building my own 10.5" SBR - I don't see any point to pistol braces.
Click to expand...
Only reason was to be able to travel freely between states without restrictive paperwork and kissing the ring of the king and because many states allow you to carry a pistol ready to rock and roll in your vehicle, but not a true rifle.

Now in the current “pistol brace” atmosphere, not so much…
 
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My uderstanding, aint no ‘Free Tax Stamps’. You get a Tax Certificate. Would anyone like to correct me that ‘Knows’??
 
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kthomas said:
Could one buy a stripped lower and take advantage of the "free" tax stamp, or is it only for existing owners of pistol AR-15'S?
Click to expand...
Nope. The rule says you had to own the lower on the day the rule hit the registry. You have to sign an attestation form...

Edited to remove "law", this isn't law, it is rules... big difference.
 
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krw said:
My uderstanding, aint no ‘Free Tax Stamps’. You get a Tax Certificate. Would anyone like to correct me that ‘Knows’??
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell, it's a distinction without a difference. You don't get an actual stamp on your form, but it's still a valid approved form 1. The stamp itself wasn't the goal.

For the OP - it's a pretty simple decision IMO: Did you do paperwork when you bought that pistol?
Yes - Do the SBR thing.
No - might be worth keeping it private. Up to you there.
 
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I'll mail you a brace for pics sake if you don't have one. I have like 5.

Is there any reason to do a legit SBR and pay the $200 vs the brace amnesty stamp?

TN doesn't even recognize SBRs anymore so I don't know what to think anymore. I'm pretty happy with my 13.9s but considering getting a free stamp out of this deal just in case.

Then again the whole thing is so infuriating I partially just want to tell them to go to hell and not attract any more attention. If I didn't already have a dozen silencers I wouldn't even consider it.
 
Rancid Coolaid said:
Nope. The law says you had to own the lower on the day the rule hit the registry. You have to sign an attestation form...
Click to expand...
How do they even know when you bought a lower? They shouldn't have that on file, right?
 
_Windrider_ said:
I mean especially if tax stamps r free right now because of the pistol brace thing. SBR everything
Click to expand...

Basically you get a waiver of the tax and a permission slip. No tax stamp.

I'm not sure you can transfer it as an SBR or not. I still think it's a trap and I ain't buying it. But I'm also the guy who shunned the braces from their inception and was already waste deep in SBRs anyway so....
 
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Charger442 said:
Basically you get a waiver of the tax and a permission slip. No tax stamp.

I'm not sure you can transfer it as an SBR or not. I still think it's a trap and I ain't buying it. But I'm also the guy who shunned the braces from their inception and was already waste deep in SBRs anyway so....
Click to expand...

You get an approved form; no stamp because the fee was waived but the stamp itself was never the thing that granted permission. Other than that it's a regular form 1. The conditional approval doesn't mean it's approved with special conditions/constraints, it means it was approved with the fee waived because of a special condition. Once approved it's a legal SBR like any other.

You can transfer it. It's been shown already that the only way to get it on a trust is to go ahead with the free stamp as an individual, then transfer it to the trust, but you'll have to pay the $200 for that transfer. Not worth it IMO (I see very little value in using a trust for SBR and suppressors now) but YMMV.
 
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CaptArab said:
Is there any reason to do a legit SBR and pay the $200 vs the brace amnesty stamp?
Click to expand...

I thought so when I did a couple back in March, because there was a lot of mixed information about it, but now I think that was wrong. I should've saved $400, and if I do a couple more in the next month or so, I'll do the free version. From what I've seen now, I don't think there's any reason not to.

Shame on me for giving the ATF $400 they didn't need; both receivers were already braced pistols. I wanted to play it safe, but think I wasted my money giving it to a corrupt .gov organization.
 
cas6969 said:
I think it depends on the weather.
Click to expand...
I think it also depends on the fact that there were almost 2 million NFA items registered as of 2019. That's 400 million dollars! Who would give up THAT golden goose?
 
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nikonNUT said:
I think it also depends on the fact that there were almost 2 million NFA items registered in 2019. That's 400 million dollars! Who would give up THAT golden goose?
Click to expand...
my thoughts exactly. and its only growing every year with the popularity of silencers
 
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Yondering said:
You get an approved form; no stamp because the fee was waived but the stamp itself was never the thing that granted permission. Other than that it's a regular form 1. The conditional approval doesn't mean it's approved with special conditions/constraints, it means it was approved with the fee waived because of a special condition. Once approved it's a legal SBR like any other.

You can transfer it. It's been shown already that the only way to get it on a trust is to go ahead with the free stamp as an individual, then transfer it to the trust, but you'll have to pay the $200 for that transfer. Not worth it IMO (I see very little value in using a trust for SBR and suppressors now) but YMMV.
Click to expand...
Not a waived... Forbearance. As in "A forbearance agreement will not eliminate the default. To the contrary, a forbearance agreement expressly preserves the default, and the lender only agrees to refrain from exercising its remedies during the forbearance period."
 
The way I look at it ... I already have NFA items and a CCW permit for almost 20 years. So "they " already know I have "them" So I will take the free tax stamp And put on a real stock and foregrip
 
nikonNUT said:
Not a waived... Forbearance. As in "A forbearance agreement will not eliminate the default. To the contrary, a forbearance agreement expressly preserves the default, and the lender only agrees to refrain from exercising its remedies during the forbearance period."
Click to expand...

Care to cite your source for that? Everything I've seen says the $200 stamp fee is waived. You're implying that they're going to make you pay it at some later date?
 
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Does anyone know if this amnesty still applies to a stripped AR 15 lower receiver (not designated a rifle on the initial paperwork), obtained before January 31, but did not have a buffer tube or brace attached when you bought it? I couldn't clarify this on their website, or maybe I missed it.
 
gro said:
Does anyone know if this amnesty still applies to a stripped AR 15 lower receiver (not designated a rifle on the initial paperwork), obtained before January 31, but did not have a buffer tube or brace attached when you bought it? I couldn't clarify this on their website, or maybe I missed it.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that it applies to anything configured as a braced pistol, whether it was sold that way or you assembled it.

If you bought a lower, then it doesn’t matter if it was bare/stripped or complete with a stock or brace on it - it still should have been transferred by the FFL as “other” not as a rifle or pistol. That being true, in most cases there’d be no way for the ATF to know how it was originally configured, but they haven’t given any indication that it matters anyway.

With that said, some FFLs have still been trying to transfer AR lowers as rifles or pistols (in error) even though it’s common knowledge that they can’t be either one without a barrel attached.
 
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If you live right at a state line it may be beneficial to hold off for the brace stuff to get sorted

But

If you don't mind SBRn another one... go for it.
You can always buy another lower later to make a "pistol" again if they sort out the brace crap
 
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Yondering said:
Care to cite your source for that? Everything I've seen says the $200 stamp fee is waived. You're implying that they're going to make you pay it at some later date?
Click to expand...

I don't have the source but it's like it's a placeholder. Until ATF changes their minds again. But I think there's some data out there on it.

Also, I thought the amnesty was only a set 120 days? Doesn't that period run out soon?
 
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I'm honestly just interested in doing it for my Ruger 10/22 charger.

I would never have the energy to engrave and $200 that sucker but this could be fun.
 
I SBR'd a single lower.
I can mix and match the uppers as I see fit with the little print out of the tax stamp in the pistol grip compartment.
Same thing applies for the suppressors.
Mix and match however the mood strikes you.
 
Fudd Busters (Matt Larosiere) has done a few videos on this brace stuff. He talks about some of the issues with the tax waived. Don't remember which video it was though. Posting these in order from oldest to newest.



 
Yondering said:
As far as I can tell, it's a distinction without a difference. You don't get an actual stamp on your form, but it's still a valid approved form 1. The stamp itself wasn't the goal.

For the OP - it's a pretty simple decision IMO: Did you do paperwork when you bought that pistol?
Yes - Do the SBR thing.
No - might be worth keeping it private. Up to you there
Click to expand...
I believe the Form 1 is a "Conditional" form 1.
 
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Yondering said:
Care to cite your source for that? Everything I've seen says the $200 stamp fee is waived. You're implying that they're going to make you pay it at some later date?
Click to expand...
I can. See "Final Rule 2021R-08F Frequently Asked Questions and SBA Compliance Guide (as of 02/13/2023)"

tax forbearance is mentioned 8 times, waived is mentioned zero times. See 15., 16., 18., "POSSESSION OF SBRs WITH AN ATTACHED “STABILIZING BRACE” AFTER TAX FORBEARANCE PERIOD ENDS", 26., 29., and 32.

Also, look at SilencerShop form 1FAQ or brace amnesty FAQ. I am not in front of a computer so not sure what it is called… But they mention forbearance several times as well.
 
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nikonNUT said:
I can. See "Final Rule 2021R-08F Frequently Asked Questions and SBA Compliance Guide (as of 02/13/2023)"

tax forbearance is mentioned gives 8 times, waived is mentioned zero times. See 15., 16., 18., "POSSESSION OF SBRs WITH AN ATTACHED “STABILIZING BRACE” AFTER TAX FORBEARANCE PERIOD ENDS", 26., 29., and 32.
Click to expand...
So confused on how the ATF can regulate and/or forgive/waive an excise tax governed by the IRS???? Or does the IRS not regulate excise taxes? I wonder if the ATF does the form 720:unsure: for the monies collected on NFA items and how the IRS will feel about them/ATF giving freebies? So, when do these "freebie" SBR's become non-conditional/illegal like the actual form 1's the ATF approved for solvent traps made into suppressors, collected the tax for the IRS and sent actual stamps to owners and then changed their minds on those suppressors? Do you think they would reimburse the owners of the Form 1 suppressors that ATF had approved and billed after requiring them to show proof of destruction or turn it in? Rhetorical question, I know the answer.

I am no tax expert so someone please feel free to chime in and let me know how this works.

Anyways, this whole thing stinks to high heaven!
 
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nikonNUT said:
I can. See "Final Rule 2021R-08F Frequently Asked Questions and SBA Compliance Guide (as of 02/13/2023)"

tax forbearance is mentioned 8 times, waived is mentioned zero times. See 15., 16., 18., "POSSESSION OF SBRs WITH AN ATTACHED “STABILIZING BRACE” AFTER TAX FORBEARANCE PERIOD ENDS", 26., 29., and 32.

Also, look at SilencerShop form 1FAQFAQ. I am not in front of a computer… But they mention forbearance several times as well.
Click to expand...
and this line,
31. If the State I reside in prohibits the ownership/possession of a short-barreled rifle (SBR), can I still register my firearm as an SBR?
• ATF will not approve an application of an SBR that violates State laws.
 
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stefan73 said:
So confused on how the ATF can regulate and/or forgive/waive an excise tax governed by the IRS???? Or does the IRS not regulate excise taxes? I wonder if the ATF does the form 720:unsure: for the monies collected on NFA items and how the IRS will feel about them/ATF giving freebies? So, when do these "freebie" SBR's become non-conditional/illegal like the actual form 1's the ATF approved for solvent traps made into suppressors, collected the tax for the IRS and sent actual stamps to owners and then changed their minds on those suppressors? Do you think they would reimburse the owners of the Form 1 suppressors that ATF had approved and billed after requiring them to show proof of destruction or turn it in? Rhetorical question, I know the answer.

I am no tax expert so someone please feel free to chime in and let me know how this works.

Anyways, this whole thing stinks to high heaven!
Click to expand...
Well, if it helps.... all communications coming from the ATFE about my Form 1 applications - have a .DOJ email address.
 
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stefan73 said:
So confused on how the ATF can regulate and/or forgive/waive an excise tax governed by the IRS???? Or does the IRS not regulate excise taxes? I wonder if the ATF does the form 720:unsure: for the monies collected on NFA items and how the IRS will feel about them/ATF giving freebies? So, when do these "freebie" SBR's become non-conditional/illegal like the actual form 1's the ATF approved for solvent traps made into suppressors, collected the tax for the IRS and sent actual stamps to owners and then changed their minds on those suppressors? Do you think they would reimburse the owners of the Form 1 suppressors that ATF had approved and billed after requiring them to show proof of destruction or turn it in? Rhetorical question, I know the answer.

I am no tax expert so someone please feel free to chime in and let me know how this works.

Anyways, this whole thing stinks to high heaven!
Click to expand...
Not an accountant or a lawyer either but I think this sums it up...
"
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; . . "

In other words the ATF can not waive a tax hence forebearance.
Defined by Oxford as "the quality of being patient and kind towards other people, especially when they have done something wrong."
and in law...
"Forbearance is the intentional action of abstaining from doing something. In the context of the law, it refers to the act of delaying from enforcing a right, obligation, or debt."
 
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CaptArab said:
How do they even know when you bought a lower? They shouldn't have that on file, right?
Click to expand...
They know when the firearm is manufactured. They know the movement of the firearm from mfr to dealer. The dealer holds the background check 4473 form history as required by law. If you try to claim that you owned said firearm prior to it being manufactured or background check being completed that's an immediate red flag. Back in the day it was called an AFMER form when I worked at a mfr.
 
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