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Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender back in the game

Glassaholic

Optical theorist and conjecturer
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Nov 30, 2012
    8,086
    9,289
    Panhandle, FL
    I suppose the title may be a little misleading as S&B has never been "out" of the game; however, with price increases, low warranty periods and their loss of prominence in certain competitive circles here in the US, it would appear the dominant German Optics manufacturer that used to rule the upper echelon of the rifle scope world was losing its title. Sometimes companies who sit on the top for so long get a little lazy and tend to rest on their laurels, only to find they've lost market share to other smaller competitors. 2017 seems to have changed how Schmidt is managing the US market and looks to be back in the fight. They have actually dropped their prices, improved their US warranty and have even released a new reticle (LRR-Mil) "aimed" at the competition crowd. My hope now is that we see a new PMIII line coming in 2018??? that will eliminate the annoying illumination tumor and put it in line with the parallax, not just for left handed shooters but for better ergonomics and opening up some tube real estate for one piece mounts. The price, the reticle and the illumination were my only gripes and Schmidt has addressed 2 out of 3 so far. Kudos to S&B for addressing the US market like they have this year and hopefully it means a lot more to come in the future. I know that many may feel a need to defend Schmidt and point out that they have been extremely innovative with the scopes they've introduced over the past few years, and to that point I would agree, especially with their ultra short line which has little to no competition, but like I said earlier, my frustration has been with price, .2 mil hash reticle options and illumination and tackling two out of three this year is very encouraging.
     
    I agree, and am glad to see the changes. However, I will add that even though you are correct about their period of standstill, my S&B is still the optic to which all my other brands are measured against. The market for sure started catching up and I'm glad they recognize it.
     
    I'm looking forward to seeing what they have coming down the pipe. I own two Razor Gen 2s but I've always been interested in a Schmidt. Maybe their new stuff will tip the scales for me and make me jump ship.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Too me the others brands were just settling for 2cnd best.

    S&B was more expensive but a decision which I've never regretted. After getting my first 5-25x56 PM2 with H-59 I quickly discovered it to be the most versatile scope on the entire market with it's 10M focus and Horus reticle. Equally at home on a PCP air rifle as it is on a ELR rig with .1 mil distinguishable in the reticle.

    New lines, new reticle and decent selection of others, less expensive now = no brainer.
     
    To me any of the higher end optics are still measured against the S&B PMII. I only wished they offered something in the 15-16X range that would slot right below their venerable 5-25x56. The 3-20X just looks odd since it's marginally shorter then the 5-25 and the Ultra Short Dots just look really odd on top of most of the longer bolt guns.
     
    They did bring in some help herein the US to address the market, that lead to lowering the prices, and making adjustments on the SKUs offered and available to dealers to reduce the cost ...

    We posted this a while back

    Repost
    1) USA Warranty revised to 20 Year Limited Warranty


    2) PM II retail pricing was lowered 14-19% - depending upon model


    3) 5-25x56 PM II are in stock at many dealers, and available for immediate shipments


    4) P4F-MOA first focal plane reticles readily available in the 5-25x56 PM II models


    4) New P4FL2-MOA second focal plane reticle offered in 5-25x56 PM II models


    5) New LRR-MIL first focal plane reticle, offered in 5-25x56 PM II models initially. Delivery mid-April/early-May 2017.


    6) Greatly improved product availability and delivery times for PM II models


    7) Now shipping several 5-45x56 PM II configurations


    8) New 2017 USA Product Catalog


    9) Committed sponsorship to PRS for 2017
     
    I wonder too if it's an issue of the German's being slow to catch on to American market trends. Things can move so fast out here and shooting sports is most likely very different in the US than it is in Europe. Sometimes the smaller companies can be more agile in their development and innovation, bringing new features to the market quickly. There is definitely much more competition for S&B at the high end than there was some years back, it used to be that if you wanted the best glass then it was Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt & Bender and out of those Schmidt was the only one who offered FFP scopes, but with the advances that other companies have made and the progression of Japanese HD glass that gap has narrowed considerably. And while I agree with you Steve, that the PMII 5-25x56 is basically the scope by which all others in that category are measured, how many shooters who could have purchased the S&B 5-25 have opted for the Razor Gen II because it too has really good glass, great reticles and great turrets, or those who've picked the Kahles K624i because it has really good glass, great reticles, great turrets and an innovative parallax design and now the Nightforce ATACR F1 5-25 or the TT or the Minox ZP5 and the list goes on. Today's marketplace and options for high end scopes has grown exponentially over the past few years and I've got to think that Schmidt has felt it and what is encouraging about all of this is that it drives everyone to be competitive and that's with both innovation and price which in the end is great news for shooters.

    Thank you for sharing that again Frank, that information is exactly what I mean, it seems like S&B USA has really ramped it up in 2017 and I can't help but think you might be a big part of the reason for that ;) When you say they brought in help for the US market can you elaborate a little more, did they hire a new team/staff specifically to address regaining some market share here in the US?
     
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    Schmidt and Bender has the Ultra Short, the Ultra Bright and... what's next, maybe the Ultra Light? Would love to see Schmidt put out a line of scopes that are 30oz or less but have the same great glass, the same reliable mechanics and maybe some other innovations (like getting rid of the illumination tumor - hmmm, I wonder if I've gotten the message across yet). Something to compete with scopes like the Vortex AMG or the March 3-24 series... and I know the Ultra Short is kind of like that but I'd like to see something lighter with a 30mm tube, but maybe I represent a small market share for them in my desire for a tactical/hunter style scope that has everything the big brother has but in a smaller/lighter package...
     
    My wish list:

    - Ultra Bright 5-25/or whatever X
    - MSR or LRR-Mil reticle
    - Multi-turn selectable MTC/LT turret
    - parallax integrated into single unit with illumination dial

    Get me those and I will be happy as a pig in a mud pit.
     
    ^^^ I'll play in the mud pit with you, wait, reading that back to myself I realize that sounds really weird, and yet, I'm still posting it so what does that make me... my kids already know that I'm weird so I guess it can't get worse :p
     
    I for one will support US manufacturing and innovation Nightforce and Vortex for me....... thank you very much! As I am heading to the rifle range right now to zero my new Nightforce 5-25 ATACR MIL-C on my Tikka made in Finland......lol yes I am a hypocrite.....lol
     
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    I love my S&Bs, and will continue to buy more in the future. I don't get caught up in the "best scope in the world" pissing matches. There are lots of amazing scopes out there. I am certainly unqualified to say that the S&B is objectively better than Nightforce, TT, etc. My S&Bs have been super reliable for me and the glass puts a smile on my face every time I look through the scope. I have no reason to buy anything else.
     
    Put this in another thread, but thought it was worthwhile to post here because it is another innovation that sounds pretty cool - this is for the new S&B Multi-Turn II turrets

    INTELLIGENT ELEVATION ADJUSTMENT FOR TACTICAL USE
    The original Multi-Turn elevation adjustment is offered in only a few models of riflescopes as a target style adjustment. The design has proven to be robust, with repeatable adjustments, very user-friendly, and has prompted demand from customers to have this type of elevation adjustment as an option available for other popular models. Schmidt & Bender’s engineering team designed the advanced Multi-Turn II turret adjustment to achieve a highly functional, repeatable, lockable, and intelligent elevation adjustment for tactical use. It is a highly specialized turret adjustment with additional features designed into it. The new Multi-Turn II serves as a rotational indicator, via a window atop the adjustment, clearly indicating rotation status in numerical values from 1 – 5. In addition to the visual indicator, the new design also provides a tactile indicator for each rotation of the turret.

    SUB-ZERO STOP SETTING
    The Multi-Turn II adjustment also has a sub-Zero Stop setting. In addition to this, it also incorporates a three-way multi-functional lever that allows the operator to determine how they want their clicks to “feel” and if they want to lock the turret. The lever is located on the barrel side of the elevation adjustment, and operates within three positional settings. With the lever pointing towards the barrel’s muzzle, the adjustment is in the “locked” position. With the lever rotated one position counter-clockwise, the adjustment is unlocked and allows for the More Tactile Click (MTC) feature. With the lever rotated to the final position, counter-clockwise, the adjustment is unlocked and bypasses the MTC feature. The new Multi-Turn II™ will be available for the 3-20x50 PM II™ Ultra Short and 3-27x56 PM II™ High Power models, with 393 centimeters (39.3 Mils) adjustment value. It will also be available for the 5-25x56 PM II™ and 5-45x56 PM II™ High Power models with 270 centimeters (27.0 Mils) adjustment value. Furthermore, the new design offers click values in 0.5 centimeter (0.050 Mil), allowing for finer zeroing and greater precision for long-range shooting.

    Stole this from Mute (Alex) in another post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Md5ytgX14
     
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    The new turret looks cool, but it seems like a lot of stuff to cram into it. Locking, selectable MTC or not, tactile pins (5), and number windows!
     
    I for one will support US manufacturing and innovation Nightforce and Vortex for me....... thank you very much! As I am heading to the rifle range right now to zero my new Nightforce 5-25 ATACR MIL-C on my Tikka made in Finland......lol yes I am a hypocrite.....lol

    Noone could tell me when the milc would be available. I wanted one for my tikka also, but gave up and grabbed a pmii 5-25 for quite a bit less $. If you don't mind me asking, where did you find your atacr?
     
    Nice , how do you like it so far?

    Sorry op, not trying to derail.

    I got it mounted in a SPUHR one piece mount zeroed it at 25yds with two shots then zeroed at 100yds with two more shots never had to touch the windage(first time ever with zeroing a scope) I haven't ran a tall target test, but shot steel out to 600yds dialed shots all seemed spot on so far. The MIL-C reticle seems/is much finer than the MIL-R reticle I like that every MIL hash mark is numbered from 1-8. Setting the zero stop wasn't to bad not as easy as on the BEAST(1 screw vs 4) I put 50 rounds down the pipe very happy with it so far over all.

     
    The new turret looks cool, but it seems like a lot of stuff to cram into it. Locking, selectable MTC or not, tactile pins (5), and number windows!

    The selectable MTC may seem like overkill unless you're like me (and many others) who don't care for the MTC much. I'm just guessing, but maybe this is S&B's attempt, and a damned good one, to allow those of us who are less than big fans of MTC to not have to pick and choose. A solution that covers all options. The tactile pins, along with MTC is really best for low light situations where it may be difficult or impossible to see the markings on the turrets. Even though I'm not a fan of the MTC (at least on the S&B), it can be handy to be able to quickly dial your turrets by feel. Same with knowing which turn you're on with the tactile pins.
     
    I for one will support US manufacturing and innovation Nightforce and Vortex for me....... thank you very much! As I am heading to the rifle range right now to zero my new Nightforce 5-25 ATACR MIL-C on my Tikka made in Finland......lol yes I am a hypocrite.....lol

    Haha! The Fins make such good stuff including brass, powder, bullets and then some! Btw, aren't all the major components for that ATACR manufactured by LOW in Japan!!! :D
     
    Haha! The Fins make such good stuff including brass, powder, bullets and then some! Btw, aren't all the major components for that ATACR manufactured by LOW in Japan!!! :D

    Did I say made in the USA.......I meant assembled in the USA....lol My Toyota Tundra had over 330 thousand miles on it when I sold it and it still ran strong, my Ford F-150 engine blew at 130 thousand miles........If my NF is made near the same quality as my Toyota I'm good with that........lol
     
    I got it mounted in a SPUHR one piece mount zeroed it at 25yds with two shots then zeroed at 100yds with two more shots never had to touch the windage(first time ever with zeroing a scope)

    Don't you love it when you go to sight in and you're almost spot on. I had a similar experience when I mounted my Minox ZP5 5-25x56 on my Chanlynn built 7mm SAUM rifle. I don't have a laser or anything but use my trusty ol' hillbilly bore sighting technique - pull out the bolt, look through the barrel and center the barrel as close I can on a target, then adjust my scope dials to match the center of what I see through the barrel. Never had the below happen before... (this was at 100 yards by the way)



    Okay, so I'm not the best shooter, but this was my five shot group