What's up everyone? Got a question about gunsmith schooling/training. I'm coming up to retirement in a couple years from the military and I've had interest in building rifles for a while now. I've been doing some research on how to start getting into the skill and business, but most of the information seems to be more of an advertisement for schools looking to make a dime off your interest. I'm on my way back home from deployment now and plan on talking to the smith who has done some work for me in the past, but I'd like to see how some of you guys got started out. Mind you, when it comes to metal work, I'd say I have less than a basic knowledge, so I'm legit starting from the bottom. What I'm craving is what I like about reloading and shooting; the precision and fine details of the work and the end result/satisfaction of the work. Thanks!
Gunsmithing Schooling/training
- Thread starter Runnineh
- Start date
One word of caution, I took something that I absolutely couldn't get enough of and made it a job, haven't done it in 2 years. Machining is a big part and I would highly recommend getting into machining classes at a local jr college. I don't do this for a living simply because I won't screw up the last hobby that I have. I build a few for myself and a very select few friends, that remains fun. When you are on a time table the fun leaves. I would suggest seeing if you can be a "helper" even if it's a no pay situation to see if you actually would like the work.
I don't believe going to school can make you a gunsmith capable of making a living. At least not for many years.
Go work for Chad Dixon and it'll be a no pay situation regardless of the agreement!
There are some decent Schools out there. I tend to think a machining course is a good first start. There is some "tribal" knowledge that is specific to firearms but I honestly believe it takes a mediocre machinist/tool maker to be a great gunsmith. Almost all of the machining operations are basic. If you can run a machine or three you can probably get a job at a gunsmithing or manufacturing company and that tribal knowledge/experience will grow. You're especially in a good place if you aren't reliant on the income. You could just buy machines and do personal hobby stuff.
Completely agree. I have no illusion that I can go to a class fir a couple months and start turning out world class products.
@larryh128, it has definitely crossed my mind that it may not be something I want do for a supplemental living. I guess that's another question, for those that did get into the field, is their any regret, loss of interest? Especially if it went from a hobby to a job?
Do it for fun and have the fun of sticking them all in 1 hole. But in order to do that you need machining knowledge. I started with 0 machining knowledge, my advantage was I have friends that are experts. If I needed to know how to correctly set up an operation I could call them. Many years later I'm better than average but I opened a drawer , pulled something out and said " who the hell did this shit". I then realized it was mine from when I first started machining. It takes time and don't do a cut until you know exactly how to do it. Can't put the metal back on.
This. And then still use a test piece if your doing it the first time.
1) you need to learn basic metal work....learn how to run a mill, a lathe, learn basic metrology, learn how to properly file a flat surface.
I would look at your local voc-tec for night classes, or even your local community college for machining classes.
2) hit up a local gun show and buy a few cheap beater rifles and practice some basics....mounting sights, trigger jobs, cut and crowns, bedding, fixing stripped screws....just get used to working on guns.
3) armed with some skills, seek out an entry level position with an established gunsmith...you need a mentor...you are capable of the basics, but much of gunsmithing is still a mentor/apprentice deal.
I don't know anyone who learned "gunsmithing" via a college/ program like Sonoran desert institute
I would look at your local voc-tec for night classes, or even your local community college for machining classes.
2) hit up a local gun show and buy a few cheap beater rifles and practice some basics....mounting sights, trigger jobs, cut and crowns, bedding, fixing stripped screws....just get used to working on guns.
3) armed with some skills, seek out an entry level position with an established gunsmith...you need a mentor...you are capable of the basics, but much of gunsmithing is still a mentor/apprentice deal.
I don't know anyone who learned "gunsmithing" via a college/ program like Sonoran desert institute
I don't get it...Go work for Chad Dixon and it'll be a no pay situation regardless of the agreement!
Touché
I highly recommend a vocational hands on training program. I don't think it matters too much which one you go to. What matters most is how much effort you put into your education and the pursuit of knowledge. The world is full of dumb asses with degrees, diploma's and certificates etc. Your post 9-11 GI Bill will pay for almost any of the residency courses, there are school in Texas, Colorado, Montana and several others. Find one you can get into that is somewhere you want to live for awhile and put your best foot forward.
Thanks for your service.
Thanks for your service.
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Doesn't do the OP any good to get into the details of what happened to me at that place, but suffice it to say a guy needs to be aware of the business structure he's getting involved with if that's what the OP or anyone else decides to do following the path of the gunsmith (or any other career, really)...
As politely as I can:
Being fresh out of the USMC myself and not having a good grasp of taxes, business structure, etc.. was a mistake I made, and just because the employer is golden and shiny on internet forums, and also former military doesn't mean they won't lie and use you and your ambition for the career for all it's worth before a guy gets wise...
Thanks Gents, I appreciate all the comments, thoughts, and perspectives.
The junior college in my town offers an intro to machine shop followed by CNC machining. You can get a CNC industrial technology certification if you take their CAD-CAM class as well.
The USAMU Gun Shop Chief and NCOIC recruit out of many of the gunsmith certificate junior colleges, and we got a lot of guys out of Trinidad in Colorado and a few other places. My nephew got his training at Lassen College in California. Most gunsmith and machinist cert schools take GI Bill and VA Vocational Rehab.
The USAMU Gun Shop Chief and NCOIC recruit out of many of the gunsmith certificate junior colleges, and we got a lot of guys out of Trinidad in Colorado and a few other places. My nephew got his training at Lassen College in California. Most gunsmith and machinist cert schools take GI Bill and VA Vocational Rehab.
As politely as I can:
(keep in mind, this is from half a decade ago)
Let's take a guy fresh out of the military and pay him a marquee level wage when he has zero experience operating, setting up, or programming equipment. He has 4 years in the Marine Corps and some really high-end training on the use of firearms but zero on building or working on them beyond the 1st echelon level.
Now, ask any business owner if it's realistic to pay someone beyond the revenue stream they are capable of generating.
Here is what he's not telling everyone:
I opened my doors to you. I gave you 24/7 access to my shop. You were allowed to use my property off the clock for any lawful purpose. Until you put your name on something this expensive to own and operate, you'll never know how much risk that entails. I do that because self-education is vital in this trade.
You, at best, were an entry-level employee. You didn't generate any meaningful revenue stream for the business. How could you? You didn't know anything. What you did/do have is all the potential in the world because you have an exceptional aptitude for mechanical stuff. Potential however means zero when it comes time to pay bills.
You were paid exactly what you were worth at the time. Just like I was almost 30 years ago when I started.
ETA: Sheesh... I just meant to say a joke... I'm not getting into this again. lol
Whatever you wanna believe Chad. The industry knows what you are
ETA2: I will say this much... If, when you go to start working at a business, there is no portion of time where you fill out tax information... run away.
Whatever you wanna believe Chad. The industry knows what you are
ETA2: I will say this much... If, when you go to start working at a business, there is no portion of time where you fill out tax information... run away.
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ETA2: I will say this much... If, when you go to start working at a business, there is no portion of time where you fill out tax information... run away.
For the record: You brought this up. Not me...
Every independent contractor in the US knows exactly what this means and every bit of it was plainly stated to you face to face the day you and I stood in my parking lot during the interview.
As for "who I am". I guess they do. I am very fortunate to have a thriving business with a shop full of great staff.
- I have very little to complain about.
For the record: You brought this up. Not me...
Every independent contractor in the US knows exactly what this means and every bit of it was plainly stated to you face to face the day you and I stood in my parking lot during the interview.
As for "who I am". I guess they do. I am very fortunate to have a thriving business with a shop full of great staff.
- I have very little to complain about.
In light of what happened I'm extremely confused as to why you're trying to bluff me on this subject.
Consider this:
A) Gunsmithing Business passes along gunsmithing work to "independent contractors" who don't hold FFLs. Think about it for a minute. This is what you claim and we're all lucky it's not how it really worked.
B) Gunsmithing Business decides hours, work, pay, and workers use Gunsmithing Business' equipment. Employees at Gunsmiting Business meet the IRS definition of an employee, NOT independent contractors. Employees fall under Gunsmithing Business' FFL. (hint: this is what happened)
C) Theoretical independent contractors who all held FFL's. Contractor quotes work before doing it. (this didn't happen)
Consider this:
A) Gunsmithing Business passes along gunsmithing work to "independent contractors" who don't hold FFLs. Think about it for a minute. This is what you claim and we're all lucky it's not how it really worked.
B) Gunsmithing Business decides hours, work, pay, and workers use Gunsmithing Business' equipment. Employees at Gunsmiting Business meet the IRS definition of an employee, NOT independent contractors. Employees fall under Gunsmithing Business' FFL. (hint: this is what happened)
C) Theoretical independent contractors who all held FFL's. Contractor quotes work before doing it. (this didn't happen)
Dude I have no idea what happened to you....but if I'm honest, you come across as a little bitch...
so for everyones sake....just stop it and move on with your life.
Thanks for your educated and valued insight.
I'll send you a PM if you'd like. I'd really rather not derail this dude's post over this shit. The whole story is shit worthy of a cheap production soap opera.
It was a joke. Y'all can get over it too.
I'll send you a PM if you'd like. I'd really rather not derail this dude's post over this shit. The whole story is shit worthy of a cheap production soap opera.
It was a joke. Y'all can get over it too.
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Exactlly this, from my experience, that is why all my photography work has been free.
When you get into money, a time limit, other people expectations, it isn't fun any longer.
This went into the weeds WAY deeper than I care to follow. I don't know the guys involved or the backstory, and don't really want to.
My take on this thread..............................
I'm not a "gunsmith", but I have been doing work/ altering/modifying/building guns for 25 or so years.
I'm also a journeyman tool and die maker for all of those years and more.
I've always chuckeled at the advertisements for whoever gunsmith school/training program.
If you can't drill a hole in a piece of metal, and make the hole the size you want it to be, you can't be a gunsmith.
If you don't understand the term " fit", you can't be a gunsmith.
In my opinion, these classes/courses put the cart before the horse.
My take on this thread..............................
I'm not a "gunsmith", but I have been doing work/ altering/modifying/building guns for 25 or so years.
I'm also a journeyman tool and die maker for all of those years and more.
I've always chuckeled at the advertisements for whoever gunsmith school/training program.
If you can't drill a hole in a piece of metal, and make the hole the size you want it to be, you can't be a gunsmith.
If you don't understand the term " fit", you can't be a gunsmith.
In my opinion, these classes/courses put the cart before the horse.
So here are some other observations I've noticed to expand a bit on my previous post before the side bars.
Online gunsmithing courses are not really "gunsmithing" courses. More of an armorer's course with a little bit off extra flare. A friend of mine did one and honestly the biggest benefit to him was the Post 9/11 GI bill housing allowance (extra cash flow). I wouldn't pay tuition out of pocket to such a thing. He got more experience than he started with, got some basic tools out of it, but if I told him, "open these scope base holes up to 8-32's and time the bolt handle", he'd look at me, laugh, and say "what?". They simply can't expect everyone online to have access to lathes and mills to do real gunsmithing work... So what you get is mediocre hand tools to do basic things like fitting a Traditions black powder kit together, assembling ARs, glass bedding a stock, lapping scope rings, etc...
Another friend of mine had gone to the school in Trinidad and from talking with him I can't really dog it for what it is. It really just depends on what your objectives are in the end. The Trinidad school is going to teach you a much wider spectrum of gunsmithing that doesn't go maybe as deep into each subject as a guy would like. For example, You might learn how to time a cylinder in a wheel gun-- which is cool but maybe not what you care about learning-- Then if your interest is in precision rifle building, there may be holes in your knowledge/experience after completing the course that you'll still have to figure out yourself.
If you learn how to run machines, you're ahead of the game and don't know it. Toolmakers where I work understand GD&T, they understand surface finish, (basic) heat treating, and know how to perform all of the operations (and more) that any gun building shop will require. They just don't have the little bit of insight to know what is "best practice" in the gun world.
They know how to indicate, work-hold, turn, thread, ream, mill, solder, weld (some of them) etc.... They just lack the "inside" experience to know about headspacing, bolt timing, etc... Just because it's an extremely narrow sliver of the machining world. Any one of them could build superb rifles if they were so inclined. It takes no time at all to explain what needs to happen to those guys, though, and have them thread and chamber a Bighorn Prefit barrel, for example.
That's why I say it takes a mediocre machinist to be a great gunsmith. There are great machinists in the gunsmithing community-- I'll even give that to Chad, really neat work comes out of his place... But the average gunsmith will fuck up basic tasks with alarming regularity. I think it stems from self-taught machining and part-time garage shops. Among other things.... You just have to pay a little bit of attention to detail and have a grasp of what needs to happen. I think if you went through a machining course with precision rifle building in the back of your mind, there are enough Youtube videos out there combined with knowledge of how to run a machine to start doing hobby work with no problem. Then if you decide you're killing your hobby's fun you have schooling/certs to go do production work in a plethora of manufacturing jobs if you so choose.
If you go to a gunsmithing school and decide you don't want to do it anymore... Not so universally applicable. But if you are retired anyway, don't care as much about work, and want to get a broader understanding of gunsmithing then maybe it's a good way to pass time and learn to go to one of the schools.
Online gunsmithing courses are not really "gunsmithing" courses. More of an armorer's course with a little bit off extra flare. A friend of mine did one and honestly the biggest benefit to him was the Post 9/11 GI bill housing allowance (extra cash flow). I wouldn't pay tuition out of pocket to such a thing. He got more experience than he started with, got some basic tools out of it, but if I told him, "open these scope base holes up to 8-32's and time the bolt handle", he'd look at me, laugh, and say "what?". They simply can't expect everyone online to have access to lathes and mills to do real gunsmithing work... So what you get is mediocre hand tools to do basic things like fitting a Traditions black powder kit together, assembling ARs, glass bedding a stock, lapping scope rings, etc...
Another friend of mine had gone to the school in Trinidad and from talking with him I can't really dog it for what it is. It really just depends on what your objectives are in the end. The Trinidad school is going to teach you a much wider spectrum of gunsmithing that doesn't go maybe as deep into each subject as a guy would like. For example, You might learn how to time a cylinder in a wheel gun-- which is cool but maybe not what you care about learning-- Then if your interest is in precision rifle building, there may be holes in your knowledge/experience after completing the course that you'll still have to figure out yourself.
If you learn how to run machines, you're ahead of the game and don't know it. Toolmakers where I work understand GD&T, they understand surface finish, (basic) heat treating, and know how to perform all of the operations (and more) that any gun building shop will require. They just don't have the little bit of insight to know what is "best practice" in the gun world.
They know how to indicate, work-hold, turn, thread, ream, mill, solder, weld (some of them) etc.... They just lack the "inside" experience to know about headspacing, bolt timing, etc... Just because it's an extremely narrow sliver of the machining world. Any one of them could build superb rifles if they were so inclined. It takes no time at all to explain what needs to happen to those guys, though, and have them thread and chamber a Bighorn Prefit barrel, for example.
That's why I say it takes a mediocre machinist to be a great gunsmith. There are great machinists in the gunsmithing community-- I'll even give that to Chad, really neat work comes out of his place... But the average gunsmith will fuck up basic tasks with alarming regularity. I think it stems from self-taught machining and part-time garage shops. Among other things.... You just have to pay a little bit of attention to detail and have a grasp of what needs to happen. I think if you went through a machining course with precision rifle building in the back of your mind, there are enough Youtube videos out there combined with knowledge of how to run a machine to start doing hobby work with no problem. Then if you decide you're killing your hobby's fun you have schooling/certs to go do production work in a plethora of manufacturing jobs if you so choose.
If you go to a gunsmithing school and decide you don't want to do it anymore... Not so universally applicable. But if you are retired anyway, don't care as much about work, and want to get a broader understanding of gunsmithing then maybe it's a good way to pass time and learn to go to one of the schools.
Totally agree. All of us have had dealings in our lives that we question/dispute. The constant character attacks aren’t a good look. Seems like you are doing well with your current gig. So there’s that.
It's wonderful to learn of your interest in gunsmithing as you prepare to leave the service. Changing careers can be an exhilarating experience. Keep in mind that gunsmithing is both an art and a science. Your military experience may have provided you with discipline and attention to detail that will be useful in this area. Accept the learning process and enjoy the adventure as you improve your precision and workmanship skills.
