• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Scope help (again)

Zatoichi66

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 23, 2018
189
25
Hi all,
Previously, I asked for help in purchasing an optic. I’m near-sighted as all hell, wear bifocals & have an astigmatism.

then I got worse—just kidding....

I purchased a Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 4.5-27x 56mm & used it for a precision rifle course & found the exit pupil cumbersome & easy to lose during rapid fire.

Is this an issue due to high power, 27X, or the Vortex scope? Would the same issue exist with a Schmidt & Bender of comparable power range?

Thank you for the help.
 
eye box should be more forgiving at lower power. most folks may not run often at max...jmo.
 
Stop shooting at 27x
AND
Set up the eye relief correctly / scope position

And if you made it the whole way through a Course and neither if those issues was addressed then Jesus help everyone who takes a course with that moron
 
Yes, lower power is more forgiving, but then dialing back up is cumbersome.

the bigger issue is: does better quality glass make a difference? Or, is it a training issue & I need to practice low power ID target & dial up power?
 
there are scopes that are more forgiving. prior thread on this (i have not read it).

 
I have left 16x for less than 5 stages over the last 2.5 years of shooting matches. With a Razor Gen 2. NF 7-35. Vortex Strike Eagle.

From 25y-400y with a 22 and out past 1k with a 223/6XC/etc etc

FOV. Trace. Target acquisition. Those are important. 27x isn't all its made out to be

And I still think you have an issue with your scope setup. I can just as easily shoot pretty much every stage on 27x and not have an eye box issue. The razor gen 2 is rather forgiving. I just value the other things you get dialing back to 16x more important than sitting on max magnification

Are you having these issues prone or from positional?
 
  • Like
Reactions: VargmatII
Exit pupil is the diameter in mm of the beam of light that shines on your eye from your optic. Exit pupil=Objective lens diameter in mm divided by the magnification. So 56/27=2.07mm on your pupil. The exit pupil will always be more forgiving at lower power and with larger objective lenses.
 
Wrong assumption.

when i told the instructors what was happening, they worked with me & recommended moving the scope, which they did. I was surprised there was such a narrow position for my head & eye. I’m new to this game & don’t want my choice in gear to hold back progress or lead to bad habits.

so, the original question still stands—is this something to expect with all higher power scopes, or would a step up in scope fix it?

simple question.
 
The vortex gen 2 razor has one of the most forgiving eye boxes out there... ....
 
  • Like
Reactions: b6graham
The article listed above and the links to PRB were what led me to chose the Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 56mm.

i talked myself out of a Kahles & S&B, and now wonder if it would have made a difference.
 
Have used all 3....sb has the tightest followed by the kahles 525 and 318
 
Wow. I can’t get the quote function to work....

we only shot prone, and yes it was still an issue. I think I used about 15-20x for the bulk of the course, which was out to 600 yards, because when i dialed up to 27x, i couldn’t see shit.
 
Wow. I can’t get the quote function to work....

we only shot prone, and yes it was still an issue. I think I used about 15-20x for the bulk of the course, which was out to 600 yards, because when i dialed up to 27x, i couldn’t see shit.
So how is your rifle set up. Lots of older gents really struggle in the prone to get behind the rifle properly. Not throwing bombs at you but prone is often the most challenging position to help people get behind the rifle. You might have a scope and a rifle setup issue.
 
Valid question. I set the stock based on Ryan Cleckner’s book, solo, on my own. I laid down what i thought was straight, and set the scope, check rest, etc. when i got there & we were setting up, they showed me a picture of how i was like 20 degrees shifted left—which i couldn’t feel. Then when they got me arrow straight, i couldn’t see shit through my scope. I have cervical spine stenosis, arthritis & disc issue. I suspect i have more titanium parts than anyone else there that weekend. Laying the way they had me made it difficult to find targets & engage them, so i cheated—i was called on it by each instructor, but at almost 60, i’m not there for double secret squirrel ninja stealth Rambonian junta training—i just wanted shooting skills, which i got.

when i dusted off my rifle and got prone on the floor tonight—if was fine, until i get over 20x when finding the reticle & target in the shadow is tough, especially at 27x.

one of the instructors thought i might do better with rings vs the cantilever AR mount i bought, but it seems like groping, because it’s only a high power issue. I was originally putting the vortex on an Hbar AR. The glass is also distorted along the periphery, but that may be my mot used to it...

i shoulda stayed with my Leupold Mk 4 if i’m only going to 20x...

my most expensive scope purchase, yet i wonder if Kahles or Leuople or S&B would be better. This gun was a 4 year project of thinking, reading, rethinking, rereading...analysis paralysis.....

golf! I should return to the misery of gold.....
 
Golf! Thats just another 4 letter word....

I suspect your instructor was trying to see if the scope would be lower in relation to your rifle and easier for you to get behind. I set my father up with a nice rifle and scope and he struggles in the prone - I believe due to a high mounted scope and years of shooting hunting rifles that are set up so differently. Don't be afraid to try adjusting things to fit you. When laying straight behind the rifle, often one must roll their head over to be straight behind the scope. If you need to lay at a 45 degree angle for best results, do it. Its about your success for your style of shooting. Straight behind the rifle is for spotting your shots and quick follow ups.
 
Valid question. I set the stock based on Ryan Cleckner’s book, solo, on my own. I laid down what i thought was straight, and set the scope, check rest, etc. when i got there & we were setting up, they showed me a picture of how i was like 20 degrees shifted left—which i couldn’t feel. Then when they got me arrow straight, i couldn’t see shit through my scope. I have cervical spine stenosis, arthritis & disc issue. I suspect i have more titanium parts than anyone else there that weekend. Laying the way they had me made it difficult to find targets & engage them, so i cheated—i was called on it by each instructor, but at almost 60, i’m not there for double secret squirrel ninja stealth Rambonian junta training—i just wanted shooting skills, which i got.

when i dusted off my rifle and got prone on the floor tonight—if was fine, until i get over 20x when finding the reticle & target in the shadow is tough, especially at 27x.

one of the instructors thought i might do better with rings vs the cantilever AR mount i bought, but it seems like groping, because it’s only a high power issue. I was originally putting the vortex on an Hbar AR. The glass is also distorted along the periphery, but that may be my mot used to it...

i shoulda stayed with my Leupold Mk 4 if i’m only going to 20x...

my most expensive scope purchase, yet i wonder if Kales
Golf! Thats just another 4 letter word....

I suspect your instructor was trying to see if the scope would be lower in relation to your rifle and easier for you to get behind. I set my father up with a nice rifle and scope and he struggles in the prone - I believe due to a high mounted scope and years of shooting hunting rifles that are set up so differently. Don't be afraid to try adjusting things to fit you. When laying straight behind the rifle, often one must roll their head over to be straight behind the scope. If you need to lay at a 45 degree angle for best results, do it. Its about your success for your style of shooting. Straight behind the rifle is for spotting your shots and quick follow ups.
Yes, rotating my head is a bit tough due cervical stenosis & arthritis. I thought i was laying straight, but wasn’t. I guess i was modifying & swinging my body left as one of the instructors showed me another picture of my crooked pose and promised i would wind up in a book of “bad examples...”

it sounded like he’s talked to my wife :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Long Range 338
When I help folks mount their scopes I have them get set up on the rifle where they feel most comfortable while keeping their eyes closed, once they are set up then I have them open their eye. If they are not seeing full sight picture through the scope where they are comfortable while the scope is on max magnification, then the scope needs to be moved. It is important to do this on max magnification, if you can get it set up properly where you can see through the scope on highest magnification all other magnifications will be good to go as well.

It sounds like you are having issues with where your scope is sitting, if that is the issue then you will have that same issue with any scope you mount on your rifle. Take your time and make sure your rifle and optic are set up properly and it will make it much easier going forward.
 
I’m thinking of getting Seekins mounts that are slightly lower and can accommodate a lower position.
 
When I help folks mount their scopes I have them get set up on the rifle where they feel most comfortable while keeping their eyes closed, once they are set up then I have them open their eye. If they are not seeing full sight picture through the scope where they are comfortable while the scope is on max magnification, then the scope needs to be moved. It is important to do this on max magnification, if you can get it set up properly where you can see through the scope on highest magnification all other magnifications will be good to go as well.

It sounds like you are having issues with where your scope is sitting, if that is the issue then you will have that same issue with any scope you mount on your rifle. Take your time and make sure your rifle and optic are set up properly and it will make it much easier going forward.
Agreed. I’m not sure if a slightly lower set of rings, vs the current cantilever would help.
 
Ok, given that I have a lumbar/cervical spine essentially devoid of functional discs, lumbar stenosis recently fixed, cervical stenosis getting worse by the month, I have you by about a decade on age, and I used to be significantly nearsighted/astigmatic prior to cataract surgery - I can sympathize and hopefully help with your eyebox issue.

There is one very significant difference that will complicate your adjustments: prescription glasses, especially if they are thin-profile progressives with their tiny "sweet spot" in the middle of the lens. You might want to consult with a sports glasses company. Decot was my go-to when I needed progressives, but their glasses are more oriented to clay target sports... I wear Rudy Project shooting glasses now, and I honesty don't know if their customer service can/will step up like Decot did. I took up rifle after cataract surgery; it's for sure that daily-wear thin-profile progressives were totally unsuitable for clay target / shotgun disciplines and I doubt that they'd be much better for rifle. If you're trying to use daily-wear prescription glasses, especially thin-line ones, that may be the cause of your scope eyebox issues right there.

With all that said:

First, get off your belly. Use a bench. If the range where you shoot doesn't have benches, buy or build a folding one and buy a cheap drummer's stool to sit on. You want to be sitting quite upright. Save the prone mess for when you have to use it, and, when you do, start with bipod set up high and support your chest on a backpack or pillow bag (big poofy support bag) so your back bends in the thorax and you don't have to hyperextend your neck. You'll probably find that prone positioning gets easier with practice. I can get into a lower prone position now than when I started, but I only do prone when I have to. Old guys spell prone "b-e-n-c-h."

Second, set up your rifle so you have a steady cheek weld with your head up, reducing strain on your cervical spine. I know when I'm hyper-extending my neck because i get pain radiating down my arms. @badgerfan is correct in his approach involving rifle setup with the shooter's eyes closed. Honestly, I've been shooting so long (60+ years, with about half of that in competition) that I just fall into a solid mount with about any rifle or shotgun I pick up.... you're gonna have to practice. You should be able to set your rifle on a bench, supported by its bipod, sit down behind it, close your eyes, mount the rifle, and open your eyes... and you should be very close to or perfectly positioned in the scope's eyebox at any magnification. Again, daily-wear prescription glasses are likely to complicate this.

You don't mention what kind of stock or chassis you have on your rifle. If it doesn't have an adjustable cheekpiece (comb), you're extremely disadvantaged.

Assuming you do have an adjustable comb, you need to work on adjustments to keep your head up with as little neck extension as possible. You're likely to run into the totally, utterly antiquated opinion that your scope needs to be mounted as close to the barrel as possible. This is outdated nonsense. You want to be comfortable, and with neck issues "comfortable" means no scrunching your head pushed way forward and hyperextending your neck.

I urge you to seek knowledgeable written and in-person assistance before you throw more money at different scopes/rings. As has been written, the Razor 4.5-27x56 is a pretty forgiving scope... I have two of them, and their eyeboxes are as good as the far more expensive ZCO I also own.

Good luck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rhsc
Ok, given that I have a lumbar/cervical spine essentially devoid of functional discs, lumbar stenosis recently fixed, cervical stenosis getting worse by the month, I have you by about a decade on age, and I used to be significantly nearsighted/astigmatic prior to cataract surgery - I can sympathize and hopefully help with your eyebox issue.

There is one very significant difference that will complicate your adjustments: prescription glasses, especially if they are thin-profile progressives with their tiny "sweet spot" in the middle of the lens. You might want to consult with a sports glasses company. Decot was my go-to when I needed progressives, but their glasses are more oriented to clay target sports... I wear Rudy Project shooting glasses now, and I honesty don't know if their customer service can/will step up like Decot did. I took up rifle after cataract surgery; it's for sure that daily-wear thin-profile progressives were totally unsuitable for clay target / shotgun disciplines and I doubt that they'd be much better for rifle. If you're trying to use daily-wear prescription glasses, especially thin-line ones, that may be the cause of your scope eyebox issues right there.

With all that said:

First, get off your belly. Use a bench. If the range where you shoot doesn't have benches, buy or build a folding one and buy a cheap drummer's stool to sit on. You want to be sitting quite upright. Save the prone mess for when you have to use it, and, when you do, start with bipod set up high and support your chest on a backpack or pillow bag (big poofy support bag) so your back bends in the thorax and you don't have to hyperextend your neck. You'll probably find that prone positioning gets easier with practice. I can get into a lower prone position now than when I started, but I only do prone when I have to. Old guys spell prone "b-e-n-c-h."

Second, set up your rifle so you have a steady cheek weld with your head up, reducing strain on your cervical spine. I know when I'm hyper-extending my neck because i get pain radiating down my arms. @badgerfan is correct in his approach involving rifle setup with the shooter's eyes closed. Honestly, I've been shooting so long (60+ years, with about half of that in competition) that I just fall into a solid mount with about any rifle or shotgun I pick up.... you're gonna have to practice. You should be able to set your rifle on a bench, supported by its bipod, sit down behind it, close your eyes, mount the rifle, and open your eyes... and you should be very close to or perfectly positioned in the scope's eyebox at any magnification. Again, daily-wear prescription glasses are likely to complicate this.

You don't mention what kind of stock or chassis you have on your rifle. If it doesn't have an adjustable cheekpiece (comb), you're extremely disadvantaged.

Assuming you do have an adjustable comb, you need to work on adjustments to keep your head up with as little neck extension as possible. You're likely to run into the totally, utterly antiquated opinion that your scope needs to be mounted as close to the barrel as possible. This is outdated nonsense. You want to be comfortable, and with neck issues "comfortable" means no scrunching your head pushed way forward and hyperextending your neck.

I urge you to seek knowledgeable written and in-person assistance before you throw more money at different scopes/rings. As has been written, the Razor 4.5-27x56 is a pretty forgiving scope... I have two of them, and their eyeboxes are as good as the far more expensive ZCO I also own.

Good luck.
Great info! The retrospectoscope and your info are extremely helpful in piecing this together. Yes, I do wear ultra-thin, progressive lenses with the optical center, in the center. At higher magnification when looking through the top—rather than the center of the lens, it’s a noticeable issue.

the Tikka T3x TAC1 has an adjustable comb, which is maxed out high, so i thought slightly lower rings might help.

yes, prone is uncomfortable for long periods. So much so, i was shooting like the “green army rifleman” according to the trainers. That’s an exaggeration, but my “crookedness” isn’t perceptible to me. My limited, book-learned shooting education advised to “get comfortable” while prone, but just like the Weaver stance, hasty-sling rifle techniques, ”comfortable” has changed.

lots of great info @DownhillFromHere thank you!
 
Bingo. Eyebox problem arising from your glasses. Been there. Done that. Don't try to "make do" with your daily-wear glasses. There's no sense in having a $3500 rifle&optic you can't see well enough to use properly.

At the end of the day, you need glasses which give the correction you need high up on the lens. I shot a T3X TAC A1 for the first year of my PRS competition journey, I have a pretty long neck, and there was ample height adjustment in the TAC A1's comb.

I wore contact lenses for most of my skeet shooting days, so my plano Decot Hy-Wyd glasses were perfect: very light and the high, wide lenses gave me the peripheral vision I needed. The Decots were very popular back then ('80s - '90s), more so than wraparound styles.

When I finally succumbed to age and gave up contacts for bifocals, I bought prescription Decots (distance correction only). But I was so nearsighted and astigmatic that the lenses were nearly 3/8" thick at the edges and were so heavy that they were, literally, painful to wear for any length of time in the summer heat (the thin-line lenses' sweet spot is very small; can't get by with that in shooting sports). Yes, they were adjusted properly - Bud Decot himself adjusted them at a big shoot in Savannah. They were just too bleeping heavy.

I also learned that wraparound lens styles weren't compatible with astigmatism correction. I don't know if that's changed.

Maybe your optometrist can help... but few of them are knowledgeable about corrective glasses for shooting sports. With rifle, you don't need the peripheral capability necessary to shotgun sports, so you won't need the huge heavy lenses I had.

I suggest checking with a few of the sports glasses companies... there are a few threads here on SH with opinions about different ones. Mention to the support person that you're new to shooting. I hope you get the expertise I had the good fortune to get from Decot.
 
Agreed. I’m not sure if a slightly lower set of rings, vs the current cantilever would help.
To test that theory, simply get comfortable on the rifle and find out what direction you need to move your head to see a full sight picture. This will save you from having to go out and buy different rings/mount to test that theory.
 
Ok, given that I have a lumbar/cervical spine essentially devoid of functional discs, lumbar stenosis recently fixed, cervical stenosis getting worse by the month, I have you by about a decade on age, and I used to be significantly nearsighted/astigmatic prior to cataract surgery - I can sympathize and hopefully help with your eyebox issue.

There is one very significant difference that will complicate your adjustments: prescription glasses, especially if they are thin-profile progressives with their tiny "sweet spot" in the middle of the lens. You might want to consult with a sports glasses company. Decot was my go-to when I needed progressives, but their glasses are more oriented to clay target sports... I wear Rudy Project shooting glasses now, and I honesty don't know if their customer service can/will step up like Decot did. I took up rifle after cataract surgery; it's for sure that daily-wear thin-profile progressives were totally unsuitable for clay target / shotgun disciplines and I doubt that they'd be much better for rifle. If you're trying to use daily-wear prescription glasses, especially thin-line ones, that may be the cause of your scope eyebox issues right there.

With all that said:

First, get off your belly. Use a bench. If the range where you shoot doesn't have benches, buy or build a folding one and buy a cheap drummer's stool to sit on. You want to be sitting quite upright. Save the prone mess for when you have to use it, and, when you do, start with bipod set up high and support your chest on a backpack or pillow bag (big poofy support bag) so your back bends in the thorax and you don't have to hyperextend your neck. You'll probably find that prone positioning gets easier with practice. I can get into a lower prone position now than when I started, but I only do prone when I have to. Old guys spell prone "b-e-n-c-h."

Second, set up your rifle so you have a steady cheek weld with your head up, reducing strain on your cervical spine. I know when I'm hyper-extending my neck because i get pain radiating down my arms. @badgerfan is correct in his approach involving rifle setup with the shooter's eyes closed. Honestly, I've been shooting so long (60+ years, with about half of that in competition) that I just fall into a solid mount with about any rifle or shotgun I pick up.... you're gonna have to practice. You should be able to set your rifle on a bench, supported by its bipod, sit down behind it, close your eyes, mount the rifle, and open your eyes... and you should be very close to or perfectly positioned in the scope's eyebox at any magnification. Again, daily-wear prescription glasses are likely to complicate this.

You don't mention what kind of stock or chassis you have on your rifle. If it doesn't have an adjustable cheekpiece (comb), you're extremely disadvantaged.

Assuming you do have an adjustable comb, you need to work on adjustments to keep your head up with as little neck extension as possible. You're likely to run into the totally, utterly antiquated opinion that your scope needs to be mounted as close to the barrel as possible. This is outdated nonsense. You want to be comfortable, and with neck issues "comfortable" means no scrunching your head pushed way forward and hyperextending your neck.

I urge you to seek knowledgeable written and in-person assistance before you throw more money at different scopes/rings. As has been written, the Razor 4.5-27x56 is a pretty forgiving scope... I have two of them, and their eyeboxes are as good as the far more expensive ZCO I also own.

Good luck.
Great info! The retrospectoscope and your info are extremely helpful in piecing this together. Yes, I do wear ultra-thin, progressive lenses with the optical center, in the center. At higher magnification when looking through the top—rather than the center of the lens, it’s a noticeable issue.

the Tikka T3x TAC1 has an adjustable comb, which is maxed out, so i thought slightly lower rings might help.

yes, prone is uncomfortable for long periods. So much so, i was shooting like the “green army rifleman” according to the trainers. That’s an exaggeration, but my “crookedness” isn’t perceptible to me. My limited, book-learned shooting education advised to “get comfortable” while prone, but just like the Weaver stance, hasty-sling rifle techniques, ”comfortable” has changed.

lots of great info @DownhillFromHere thank you!
Bingo. Eyebox problem arising from your glasses. Been there. Done that. Don't try to "make do" with your daily-wear glasses. There's no sense in having a $3500 rifle&optic you can't see well enough to use properly.

At the end of the day, you need glasses which give the correction you need high up on the lens. I shot a T3X TAC A1 for the first year of my PRS competition journey, I have a pretty long neck, and there was ample height adjustment in the TAC A1's comb.

I wore contact lenses for most of my skeet shooting days, so my plano Decot Hy-Wyd glasses were perfect: very light and the high, wide lenses gave me the peripheral vision I needed. The Decots were very popular back then ('80s - '90s), more so than wraparound styles.

When I finally succumbed to age and gave up contacts for bifocals, I bought prescription Decots (distance correction only). But I was so nearsighted and astigmatic that the lenses were nearly 3/8" thick at the edges and were so heavy that they were, literally, painful to wear for any length of time in the summer heat (the thin-line lenses' sweet spot is very small; can't get by with that in shooting sports). Yes, they were adjusted properly - Bud Decot himself adjusted them at a big shoot in Savannah. They were just too bleeping heavy.

I also learned that wraparound lens styles weren't compatible with astigmatism correction. I don't know if that's changed.

Maybe your optometrist can help... but few of them are knowledgeable about corrective glasses for shooting sports. With rifle, you don't need the peripheral capability necessary to shotgun sports, so you won't need the huge heavy lenses I had.

I suggest checking with a few of the sports glasses companies... there are a few threads here on SH with opinions about different ones. Mention to the support person that you're new to shooting. I hope you get the expertise I had the good fortune to get from Decot.
thank you again! Will check. My eye doctor isn’t a shooter, but he gave me 4 scripts: one for regular wear, one for computer use, one for reading & one for robotic surgery. I only gave the first & last prescriptions made.
 
To test that theory, simply get comfortable on the rifle and find out what direction you need to move your head to see a full sight picture. This will save you from having to go out and buy different rings/mount to test that theory.
we did this at the course, but “prone” on an inclined plane while sweating with glasses falling below the useable optical center was unpredictable.

it reminds me of Yogi Berra’s, “In theory, there’s no difference between theory & practice, but in practice there is...” statement.