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Scoped model 1917 rifles

S12A

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Feb 25, 2009
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G’day all,

I’ve seen on the Approved Sniper Rifle list for NRAA (National Rifle Association Australia) service rifle and the SSAA combined services match, a reference to “M17 , Eddystone/Various makers, USA/ 8x USMC scope”

I can’t find any information around this combination, though I may be looking in the wrong places.

Appreciate any assistance,
Thanks
Anthony
 

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G’day all,

I’ve seen on the Approved Sniper Rifle list for NRAA (National Rifle Association Australia) service rifle and the SSAA combined services match, a reference to “M17 , Eddystone/Various makers, USA/ 8x USMC scope”

I can’t find any information around this combination, though I may be looking in the wrong places.

Appreciate any assistance,
Thanks
Anthony
John Unertl didn't even come to the U.S. and start working for J.W. Fecker building scopes until the 1920's. He didn't branch out on his own until the early 1930's. The U.S. abandoned the U.S. Model of 1917 in the 20's. Although there was a number kept in inventory as a stopgap. But no 'official' development of the rifle after the 1920's. So if there was a Unertl on one, it was put on there as an individual, not a military program. But, since each the 1917 and Unertl scopes were adopted, it might have passed muster way back when, then got grandfathered in for more modern competition.
 
That all makes sense.

I’ve seen a few photos now with the A5 scopes fitted, none with the Unertl’s.

Although they were phased out, I’m still keen to see if these A5 equipped M1917’s were used in any official capacity.
 
That all makes sense.

I’ve seen a few photos now with the A5 scopes fitted, none with the Unertl’s.

Although they were phased out, I’m still keen to see if these A5 equipped M1917’s were used in any official capacity.
Yes, they were. I asked the same question a few years back. Limited numbers in comparison to the 1903, but still used.
 
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I wonder if the NRAA is afflicted with the same confusion the Marines themselves were, early in WWII.

The 8x Unertl received many negative reviews from Marines in the field...before it was ever even fielded. The rifles used in the early campaigns by Marines were A5s, but as the reports of poor sniper rifle performance began rolling in, the blame was lumped onto the Unertl that was just beginning to come on line. Studying the wording and timeline of some of the documents, we can't help but assume that 1903s with long skinny scopes were all accidentally lumped together by Marines who didn't know better.

P14s and M1917s were fielded as snipers, but never with the USMC 8x scope.

Nonetheless, if it's approved, it would be an interesting fantasy rifle to build.
 
This style of rifles I'm sorry to say would be something that was never used by the military. Both on the USMC Unertl and also the A5.

To tell a little background, the A5 was pretty much considered obsolete even before WWI.

The Army actually had wanted a Goertz German Scope as their sniper scope in the early teens, but for obvious reasons it never happened with the start of the war. Frankford arsenal had the only optical shop in all the military, so they were ordered to copy the German scope design and make a functioning scope that could be mass produced.

Well Frankford came up short, so the design was turned over to WRA in 1917 to make the design work. That design of scope became known by WRA as the Model of 1918 scope.

That Model 0f 1918 scope was what the Army wanted as a sniper and they ordered tens of thousands of them. They were to be put on a modified sporterized Winchester Model 1917. That M1917 with that scope became the Model of 1918 Sniper. They only made a small amount for testing and they just couldn't handle the recoil and the scopes failed. As far as I know, none of these rifles or scopes still exist. The docs say they were destroyed in testing. But the war ended before the design could be fixed so this rifle never happened. This is the only M1917 sniper rifle platform that ever was to actually be made and fielded by the Army. There really wasn't any others past small numbers to test.

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The Army did have WRA mount 900 A5 scopes on the M1903's supplied by them in 1918. This was because they couldn't get the Warner Swaseys in time with a shortage of kodak lenses for the scopes, and WRA did not have the bugs worked out on the Model of 1918 scope. These were the only A5 snipers used by the Army in WWI. There were never any M1917 snipers used by any branch. They were also identical to the 500 WRA mounted for the Marines in 1917. In total WRA made 1400 of these for the Army and Marines combined. These did not have the Mann Niedner tapered bases that you see confused with in all the books. These had a WRA base called the Springfield Marine. The bottom is a pic taken in France in about Jan 1918 of a WRA mounted rifle in the hands of a Marine.

Jack the dog.jpg


The other style of A5 did have the tapered bases. It's unclear how many were for sure built by the Marines. It might have only been 150 during the war, but I could argue it either way. The Marine Philly Depot did for sure start to build them after the war and continued to build them as needed into WWII. These have the tapered blocks that have been modified to the existing WRA mounts. They work on a wedge design that tightens under recoil. The Marines also changed the micrometers to ones that were easier to read, but still quite confusing by later standards. This is a pic of a WWI Mann Niedner in france.

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If you want to see them side by side to see the differences. The top one was built by WRA for the Army and Marines. The bottom is an WRA A5 scope modified by the Marines at the Philly depot to the tapered blocks and updated micrometers. This one pictured was actually built by the Marines in WWII. The Marines built at least a 150 of the Mann Niedners in 1941/42 for training, the Marine Raiders, and the Navy.

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To the original question. The Marines got rid of all their M1917's by 1920. They never did any major testing of the Model 1917 as a sniper. They very much loved the M1903 and the M1917 was not see in the same affection by the Marines. I think I have a few mentions of them trialing some studies with the M1917, but it never made it past testing. The Marines did have M1917's and were going to switch over to it in the AEF, as everyone in the AEF was required to do so for logistics and such. But there is no evidence the Marines ever did any work on the M1917's as snipers past a handful of rifles. The Marines turned in all their M1917's by 1920, so there is no chance they ever built any with the Unertl 8X scopes.

The Army did not not have any real interest in building a M1917 sniper either. The only reason they considered it was Winchester could build the rifles and scopes together. But outside of that they had no interest in mounting A5 scopes to the M1917. They did do some testing with the M1917, mostly post WWI as a sniper rifle. But it never went anywhere.

The M1917 shown above with Mann Blocks and claims it was Marine. I honestly doubt it. It would require some documentation to back up the story. As the Mann Niedner tapered blocks were EXTREMELY common among competitive shooting. They were so common that many people and gunsmiths made and used those blocks. They were used on a lot of scoped rifles back in the day. I think personally that rifle is just a civilian made rifle.

But this is the same mistake I see so many experts in this field make. They find a vintage rifle that appears to show some USMC trait, and it has a scope, and it automatically becomes a sniper. This is the furthest from the truth. The Marines were not revolutionary or unique in their search of a sniper rifle. Most often they copied off the best commercial shooting designs of their time.

So sorry to say many sniper rifles I see traded, are just some commercial target rifle from back in the day. It's just the Marines liked to copy these commercial target rifles as many of the guys who built the sniper programs for the wars, were team shooters and they knew what worked and what was accurate.

The whole concept of the M1917 sniper is for the most part just something that was never really considered. So the rifle would be more a fantasy piece than anything in any configuration.
 

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Cplnorton thank you very much for the detailed reply it’s much appreciated .

It’s certainly interesting how one photo in a book or on the internet can lead to conclusions being made prematurely, especially when such a long amount of time has passed. The M1917 as a sniper rifle just seemed like a smart use of the rifle to me, given the success of the British P 14 as a sniper rifle .

No on another subject around the use of M1917’s , I saw some images of one fitted with a mount and scope similar to what was used on the 1903A4, reciever markings had even been moved over so they were visible like on the 1903A4 . Apparently used by the Austrians . Might need to look at that a bit more .
 
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RE my above post, thread for reference :

Photos credited from that thread to member “Promo” not mine.
 

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Photos credited from that thread to member “Promo” not mine.

That is absolutely unreal. I've never come across even a rumor of a rifle like that. Looks like a mashup of parts, if not for the receiver stamp.

But leave it to Promo to have wild stuff you've never heard of. He's got an amazing collection.
 
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Whomever is capable of using photographic forensics to correct this WWI photo….
4D489D73-FCB8-4703-B8A5-6059505A937A.jpeg

to the point you can read the SN and prove the rifle is one and the same with Steve’s own rifle (as I suspect) you will be given a free 20 hour stay in Martha’s Vineyard, or longer if you can avoid the purityteams.
 
Anything done to any of the rifles past the US, I'm honestly clueless. I study that 1900 to about 1973 for the Marines and Army and that is about it. So anything foreign I bow down to the real experts. Because I know very little of that.

Pmclaine, I actually went to the archives and found the original of that pic, which is a glass slide. So I have high definition copy of it and actually there are two pics of the same guy. I was hoping I might see a ding in the stock or anything that might tie it to my rifle, but unfortunately nothing.

The only thing I can tell for certain, there seems to be some correlation to the serial range around my rifle which is a 1909. Which is interesting as I wonder why they were using 1909 rifles for builds that started in 1917. That is sort of uncommon.

In fact I've been lectured by the "Expert" of the 1903's how my rifle couldn't have been done by WRA because it was too old. But in the Winchester files there are only 3 serials I found. One was 367312. My rifle is 368496. Then the pic taken in France in 1918 is also a pre 1910 rifle by the traits.

So there isn't a lot of info there to build patterns of serials for those rifles, but of what is present it shows a correlation to the pre 1910 rifles. Which is really interesting.

I wish I could just find the shipping log of the serials of the 500 rifles that WRA sent to France in late 1917 for the Marines. That would excite me beyond words. :)
 
Anything done to any of the rifles past the US, I'm honestly clueless. I study that 1900 to about 1973 for the Marines and Army and that is about it. So anything foreign I bow down to the real experts. Because I know very little of that.

Pmclaine, I actually went to the archives and found the original of that pic, which is a glass slide. So I have high definition copy of it and actually there are two pics of the same guy. I was hoping I might see a ding in the stock or anything that might tie it to my rifle, but unfortunately nothing.

The only thing I can tell for certain, there seems to be some correlation to the serial range around my rifle which is a 1909. Which is interesting as I wonder why they were using 1909 rifles for builds that started in 1917. That is sort of uncommon.

In fact I've been lectured by the "Expert" of the 1903's how my rifle couldn't have been done by WRA because it was too old. But in the Winchester files there are only 3 serials I found. One was 367312. My rifle is 368496. Then the pic taken in France in 1918 is also a pre 1910 rifle by the traits.

So there isn't a lot of info there to build patterns of serials for those rifles, but of what is present it shows a correlation to the pre 1910 rifles. Which is really interesting.

I wish I could just find the shipping log of the serials of the 500 rifles that WRA sent to France in late 1917 for the Marines. That would excite me beyond words. :)

Love that dudes fuck you campaign cover.

I let my work campaign cover go vertical fore and aft summer of 2020. After spending a night presence keeping a mall from getting burned someone on the command staff must have taken offense because at the next nights riot I was given a brand new cover and told to swap out.

It makes sense to turn the back and front in a curl, let's the rain wash off the scuppers.
 
If anybody want to build a fake P14/M1917 sniper, and have some "fun", it can be chambered for 338 Lapua Magnum without altering the external appearance.
 
If anybody want to build a fake P14/M1917 sniper, and have some "fun", it can be chambered for 338 Lapua Magnum without altering the external appearance.
Who is the fun for the people watching or the shooter?
 
I have found this with an A5 scope fitted
No image, but I suspect it's the same rifle shown that is part of the Springfeild Armory Historic site colleciton:
Notes: "Model 1917 Enfield rifle fitted with Winchester A5 telescope sight in Winchester mounts modified in the Mann-Neidner manner. The rear sight is the experimental adjustable windage Elder sight that was suggested by the U.S. Marine Corps." - Brophy

"A unique Model 1917 (Enfield) rifle with a modified mount (tapered bases), Winchester A5 telescopic sight, and experimental Marine Corps rear sight." - Senich


Fwiw: C.J. Harrison's book on the P-17 notes the "U.S.M.C. Telescope-Sight Rifle, Model fo 1918 w/ Winchester A5 scope and USMC adjustable rear sight rifle" as a "Prototype only, no known military use."

Telescope sight = SPAR-7180.
Info re that A5 sccope:
****

M1903 w/ A5 scope (U.S. RIFLE MODEL 1903 .30 SN# 470555)::
"In the Springfield Armory collection there are two '03 rifles that at one time had Winchester A5 telescopes mounted on them. The bases are mounted six inches between centers and are still in place. The rear bases are held by two screws to the Model 1903 rear sight fixed base. The rifles are serial numbered 47055 and 474180. Barrel dates are 5-11. Another similarly based rifle is serial number 472207." - Brophy

...That's all I can add to this thread.
 
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Personally I don't think that 1917 at the SA museum is Marine. I've seen it and it reminds me of the testing the Army did with the Mann Niedner bases. I have several sniper test reports from 1918 to 1923 that detail the Army's testing them.

As I said earlier I think the biggest mistake previous researchers have made is they see those tapered bases and think they only mean USMC. But that is the furthest from the truth. The USMC only copied the design because they were so popular among civilian competition shooters of the day and they worked well. But if you read the NRA shooting magazines in this era they were extremely common.

On the mention of testing other iron sights for the M1917. The Marines never trialed any 1917 sights that weren't given to them to test by the Army. So the Army and the Marines tested all the same sights. So any mentions you see in a book that this sight trial meant USMC, that just isn't correct.

All of this is just like the Marine #10 sights. Every book labels them as Marine. But they weren't. The #10 sights were created by a civilian. The Marines only copied the style after they saw the Army using them in competition. lol Also Springfield Armory made the Marines their first 35,000 sets of #10 sights. But yet today even though they were created by a civilian gunsmith, the Marines first saw them in use by the Army, and Springfield Armory made the vast majority of them for the Marines, they are thought to only be Marine Corps. lol There just isn't much out there that is exclusive to the Marine Corps. They copied almost everything the Army did.

On the 1903's at the SA Museum. I think all of them are from the US Army 1914 sniper trials. They determined that the A5 scope was not effective and the 6'' spacing on the A5 scope was a very weak design. The Army and Marines never had any 6'' spacing sniper rifles, past the handful that the Army tested and we have all those serials. That is another thing the books are wrong about. They claim the Marines and Army had 6'' A5 spacing snipers. That never happened.

I think the easiest way to sum up all this. I think a lot of researchers back in the day have labeled a lot of stuff as exclusive to the Marines when in fact there was basically very little that was exclusive. This era of the Marine Corps is so hard to identify as the Marines copied everything they did basically from someone esle.