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Scopes!

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Solo 43

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 18, 2020
149
114
Yeah, I know, its a big topic, but.....I've been researching scopes for several weeks and am having trouble coming to a conclusion. First, some background: I stopped shooting 17+ yrs ago (don't ask why) and recently decides to get back into it. I'm kind'a rifle rich and scope poor. I shot high-power and long range 10+ yrs (high master in both), member of the US Palma Team in '03, SWAT sniper/team leader my entire career (I'm semi-retired). My 'work' rifle is a custom built M700, Obermeyer barrel, McMillan A3, Badger base/rings AND a S&B PMII 4-16...rifle is 21 yrs old and a laser beam, as you would expect. I have several custom built high power rigs, one I just rebarreled with a Bartlein, bedded in a A5 and now the conundrum: I've acquired a Burris XTRII 5-25 and a Bushnell Tactical Elite, for really decent price.....BUT, after looking through them at 300-500 yards and comparing them to my 21 yr old S&B....it wasn't even CLOSE! I really thought they'd be closer, due to the S&B being 21 yrs old, but.....Now, I still get a LE discount, but a S&B, or comparable scope, is still gonna be $2500+ (I'm guessing). I have not looked through the Vortex Razor HD II, or Leupold Mark 5HD, but will be looking through a new Nightforce ACTAR next week.

Here's the question: I can get the Razor and Leupold for around $1600-1700...tell me they are much better then the Burris? If there not, I'm kind'a screwed and will have to spend the $$$ on.....

Thanks in advance.

R
 
Razor and Leupold will both be much better than the Burris you have. Other great options would be the Athlon Cronus or the new Burris XTR 3 which has much better glass than the previous generation.
 
Last edited:
@Solo 43 The work rifle sounds awesome. I also have a SB 4-16x42 and can tell you (at least from my POV) that the Razor Gen2 3-18/4.5-27 aren’t even close optically. I have owned both Razors in question but cant comment on the mk5 as ive not owed one of them.

If the SB on the work rifle is your standard, id at least wait until you look through the ATACR before buying anything.

Luke G said:
Razor and Leupold will both be much better than the leupold.
Click to expand...
did you mean to say “Burris”?
 
Actually, both of my M700's are identical: the guy that did all my metal work (course and Palma rifles) totally trued up the 700's, pinned Tubb lug, base screws enlarged, etc. Both barrels are 5R/11.25" twist, same reamer used.
 
Might have to sell one for your extra rifles but I sure loved this scope: SWAROVSKI X5I 3.5-18X50. On a clear winter day I could identify a beer bottle sitting on my neighbor's porch rail. ( 1.45 miles away). He also had a driftboat under a tree which had 14in wheels. I could place the x hairs in the center of the rim. I had the same scope in 4-25 but traded it back for the 3-18. if I did again I wouldnt spend the xtra on the illuminated reticle. I have had some top dollar Burris in the past and found the optics to be sub par.
 
XTR3 with the SCR2 reticle is what you are looking for.
 
Solo 43 said:
Yeah, I know, its a big topic, but.....I've been researching scopes for several weeks and am having trouble coming to a conclusion. First, some background: I stopped shooting 17+ yrs ago (don't ask why) and recently decides to get back into it. I'm kind'a rifle rich and scope poor. I shot high-power and long range 10+ yrs (high master in both), member of the US Palma Team in '03, SWAT sniper/team leader my entire career (I'm semi-retired). My 'work' rifle is a custom built M700, Obermeyer barrel, McMillan A3, Badger base/rings AND a S&B PMII 4-16...rifle is 21 yrs old and a laser beam, as you would expect. I have several custom built high power rigs, one I just rebarreled with a Bartlein, bedded in a A5 and now the conundrum: I've acquired a Burris XTRII 5-25 and a Bushnell Tactical Elite, for really decent price.....BUT, after looking through them at 300-500 yards and comparing them to my 21 yr old S&B....it wasn't even CLOSE! I really thought they'd be closer, due to the S&B being 21 yrs old, but.....Now, I still get a LE discount, but a S&B, or comparable scope, is still gonna be $2500+ (I'm guessing). I have not looked through the Vortex Razor HD II, or Leupold Mark 5HD, but will be looking through a new Nightforce ACTAR next week.

Here's the question: I can get the Razor and Leupold for around $1600-1700...tell me they are much better then the Burris? If there not, I'm kind'a screwed and will have to spend the $$$ on.....

Thanks in advance.

R
Click to expand...
this is a little over a year old, but u might get some info you can use from it. Also, go to the bottom and read the answers he gives on some of the questions asked. Very insightful .
precisionrifleblog.com

Wyoming ELR Scopes & Mounts – What The Pros Use

A few weeks ago, I surveyed 100+ shooters who competed in this year’s Nightforce ELR Steel Challeng...
precisionrifleblog.com precisionrifleblog.com
 
The Burris XTR II series are good entry level scopes, they put the money in the internals, not the glass.
The XTR III are supposed to be a significant step up, though they lack illumination.
The new DMR series from Bushnell are likewise a step up from the original.
I have a Cronus, they glass is pretty good, but I find at max power, the eye box is very tight.
I have a sightron SV 4.5-24 that offers a better picture with a more forgiving eye box.
Sadly they no longer make it, though they do make the SVIII 5-40. With the LE discount, it might be worth a look.
You may want to check out the trijicon creedo lineup.
 
For the amount of $$$ I want to spend, I'm leaning toward the Razor. I haven't looked through one, or the Leupold Mk5HD, but the reviews I'm reading are pretty good. I'm NOT going to spend $3+ for a scope....I'm NOT working anymore, but I really don't want to buy a scope an be disappointed. I really thought the Elite and XRS II would be closer to a 21 yr old S&B....NOT!

On another note....due to my unique build, a long torso/neck, a cantilever mount would be perfect for my bolt guns, but finding one that is low, under 1.25", is tough. Spuhr is the only one I can find with a ring height near 1.25". I've got two (2) F3R Machine mounts, which are beautiful, but they don't make a 34mm lower then 1.35".

Any suggestions?
 
I'll be looking, and comparing, several new Nightforce ACTAR scopes to my S&B and my 'other' scopes. I realize that 'eyeball' evaluations are very subjective, but I'm gonna be the one looking through them.

On mounts, on my post above: I really don't want the bell of the scope having .5" clearance.....for domestic reasons, not performance ones. My Palma rifles had a very unique sight height....unlike any on the range, and I shot fine with them. Just had to pay attention to the bubble!
 
He’s not working anymore, probably too pricey for him to swing for a new S&B.

Maybe a used Kahles or S&B.
 
I wouldn’t do the Leupold, but that’s just me. ATACR’s are nice and the Razor is proven to be a good buy at around 1700-2000. I like the Steiner M5XI. And K624i. Lots of options.

Do you like a reticle? If so, narrow it down from there. Christmas tree style or horizontal/vertical lines only.

Hope we can help!
 
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Solo 43 said:
For the amount of $$$ I want to spend, I'm leaning toward the Razor. I haven't looked through one, or the Leupold Mk5HD, but the reviews I'm reading are pretty good. I'm NOT going to spend $3+ for a scope....I'm NOT working anymore, but I really don't want to buy a scope an be disappointed. I really thought the Elite and XRS II would be closer to a 21 yr old S&B....NOT!

On another note....due to my unique build, a long torso/neck, a cantilever mount would be perfect for my bolt guns, but finding one that is low, under 1.25", is tough. Spuhr is the only one I can find with a ring height near 1.25". I've got two (2) F3R Machine mounts, which are beautiful, but they don't make a 34mm lower then 1.35".

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Bobro.

They are excellent and they work exactly as advertised. I've got a few and they are precision well made and a lot easier to use to boot.
 
The Vortex AMG is an ideal scope for what you describe. 30mm tube too.

The glass is very good and the reticle is the best imo. You will have to buy one used here but they can be had within your range and are just an excellent package. I much prefer it over the Razor. I run kahles on my comp guns because of the parallax location but the AMG is still my favorite scope. I've shot them all and owned many of the upper tier scopes
 
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Save up some more and try to score a used S&B on the PX here. I bought a new Razor then got a great deal on a new PMII. After looking through both of them the S&B got mounted on the rifle while the Razor sits unused on the shelf. Nothing wrong with the Razor but to my eyes the S&B was noticeably (a lot) better.
 
Solo 43 said:
Yeah, I know, its a big topic, but.....I've been researching scopes for several weeks and am having trouble coming to a conclusion. First, some background: I stopped shooting 17+ yrs ago (don't ask why) and recently decides to get back into it. I'm kind'a rifle rich and scope poor. I shot high-power and long range 10+ yrs (high master in both), member of the US Palma Team in '03, SWAT sniper/team leader my entire career (I'm semi-retired). My 'work' rifle is a custom built M700, Obermeyer barrel, McMillan A3, Badger base/rings AND a S&B PMII 4-16...rifle is 21 yrs old and a laser beam, as you would expect. I have several custom built high power rigs, one I just rebarreled with a Bartlein, bedded in a A5 and now the conundrum: I've acquired a Burris XTRII 5-25 and a Bushnell Tactical Elite, for really decent price.....BUT, after looking through them at 300-500 yards and comparing them to my 21 yr old S&B....it wasn't even CLOSE! I really thought they'd be closer, due to the S&B being 21 yrs old, but.....Now, I still get a LE discount, but a S&B, or comparable scope, is still gonna be $2500+ (I'm guessing). I have not looked through the Vortex Razor HD II, or Leupold Mark 5HD, but will be looking through a new Nightforce ACTAR next week.

Here's the question: I can get the Razor and Leupold for around $1600-1700...tell me they are much better then the Burris? If there not, I'm kind'a screwed and will have to spend the $$$ on.....

Thanks in advance.

R
Click to expand...

....your experience level is obvious as are your preferences so I doubt you really need anyone's "advice" on scope capabilities/performance. It seems you are looking more for pricing info. You might want to check out the articles by BigJimFish on scopes he's reviewed in the various price categories, especially as you transition into your deserved retirement phase and it's financial impact. Here's one article on the $2K range but it contains links to the others within the contents....

www.snipershide.com

2021 BigJimFish Review/Article blog: ~$2k scopes with Minox, Sig, and more.

As with my previous 2020, 2019 and 2018 threads, the purpose of this thread is to provide a catalog of this years reviews and articles, give you a behind the scenes look at what I am working on as it is worked on, and provide a place for your input and comments. Last year ended up quite...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
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Like I mentioned at the start....I've got more rifles then scopes. My 3rd rifle is a M70, trued up, Anschutz trigger, 27" Obermeyer barrel chambered in a 6mm-22-250 (105 Berger's @ 3000), in a gorgeous walnut stock, of my own design (competition design)....need a scope for this too! Sell a rifle: yeah, the problem is, no one really wants to PAY for what you have, even if its a sweet deal. 'Custom' stuff cost $$$ and most folks think 'factory' prices. I have Bushy on my Ruger .22 RPR, which is a blast to play with (with the right ammo) and a great practice/training rig.

So.....It isn't I can't afford a S&B, its more like why?

And what is the PX?
 
BTW....back when I was working, one of my training drills was shooting groups, 1 shot at a time, at various distances. Due to the range I was training at, I shot the groups at 100, 200, 300, 385, 441 and 551 yds, 1 shot at each distance, then clicking back down to the start distance and repeating until I had 5 shots/distance (distances were determined by the unique range I trained at).....all shot over my backpack prone. I still have the targets from my first time. The 100 yd grp was about .5"....I was REALLY stunned at the S&B's repeatability.
 
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I’ve been down your road. Retired LE, former police sniper, PRS shooter for the last 5 yrs. I ran NF NXS and then a S&B on my work rifles. When I started shooting PRS I thought I would save a buck and tried some of the lower tier scopes but was never satisfied. Ended up back at a NF ATACR 7-35x56 Mil-XT. Now have two. I was able to compare this optic to a bunch of top-tier optics at a match where we lined up all the rifles and everybody got a chance to look through the different glass. ATACR has been a great dependable optic. I loved my S&B PMII. Glass is very good and better than the ATACR, imho. That said, the ATACR glass is not bad :). I really liked the ATACR turret, MIL-XT reticle and features. To my eye the 7–35 is nicer than their 5-25. Don’t know why. If you call the premium dealers, most will cut you a good deal. There are a few for sale here in the PX. Also Euro optics often has open box demos for sale on their site as well.

You’re on the right track, trying to compare and get behind glass before you buy. Once you find what you like, don’t skimp. You’ll be happier in the end. Good luck.

P. S. Don’t look through a zero compromise. They were not available when I bought my ATACRs. That’s the only thing out there right now that’s tempting me.
 
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Solo 43. I have nightforce ATACR 5-25x56 F1 H59 reticle , if you want to take a look.
New in the box , if you want it . I’m too old to see the reticle , unless I turn up the power
past 14x.
Thank you
Bill
775-626-6022
 
Well, I just completed a very un-official/un-scienctific test with my 3 scopes: Burris XTR II 5-25, Bushnell Tactical Elite, even though it doesn't say that anywhere on the scope, and my 21 yr old S&B PM II 4-16. Test: printed up letters/numbers/symbols, in various sizes and placed it at 325 yds. Couldn't get the XTR II to look good, no matter what I did (yes, its for sale). The Bushnell was surprisingly good...quite frankly, shockingly good, especially for what I paid for it. And the S&B is the S&B. So, I guess I'm looking for TWO scopes now, once I get rid of the XTR II. With my LE discount, $1500-2000 can buy me a lot of scope. The S&B/ZCO/etc are still $1000-1500 more then I WANT to pay.

T Bear: I'll look at the reticle. How much?
 
Where are you guys finding Gen 2 razors for $1700? I’ve been unable to source them that low
 
T Bear said:
Solo 43. I have nightforce ATACR 5-25x56 F1 H59 reticle , if you want to take a look.
New in the box , if you want it . I’m too old to see the reticle , unless I turn up the power
past 14x.
Thank you
Bill
775-626-6022
Click to expand...
Bill, FYI
www.snipershide.com

WTT AND WTB OUTSIDE THE PX - No Bueno

Any post looking to create a transaction of any kind, even a Trade Transaction is not permitted outside the PX You have been warned
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
I have the XTRII and the Leopold mk5. Mk5 blows the Burris out of the water. ATACR glass is better than mk5 but not $1000 better to me. Only looked through a S&B PMII 5-25 a couple times and the ATACR glass looked better to me honestly. I’m sure others will disagree.
 
Jigstick said:
Where are you guys finding Gen 2 razors for $1700? I’ve been unable to source them that low
Click to expand...
Link below and add it to the cart by hitting the buy now button for the price. I had to post this three times yesterday because people didn't see add to cart so here it is again in the same post so it doesn't get missed, ADD TO CART FOR THE PRICE. ;)

Vortex Razor HD GEN II

Vortex's bombshell, all new FFP 100% "Made in USA" premium quality tactical riflescope. Everything about this scope is made here, made right, and made to deliver top shelf performance that asks no quarter, nor gives any. Per Vortex's post on Sniper's Hide, this scope is set to debut sometime...
www.libertyoptics.com
 
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Going on what Rob posted you wont find a better optic for the money at that price IMO. If you can put up with the weight, order and don't look back.
 
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Rob01 said:
Link below and add it to the cart by hitting the buy now button for the price. I had to post this three times yesterday because people didn't see add to cart so here it is again in the same post so it doesn't get missed, ADD TO CART FOR THE PRICE. ;)

Vortex Razor HD GEN II

Vortex's bombshell, all new FFP 100% "Made in USA" premium quality tactical riflescope. Everything about this scope is made here, made right, and made to deliver top shelf performance that asks no quarter, nor gives any. Per Vortex's post on Sniper's Hide, this scope is set to debut sometime...
www.libertyoptics.com
Click to expand...
Do I add it to the cart to see a different price??
 
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Well....just returned from the range zero'ing/testing my new rig...shoots lights out: 5 shot gap/100 yds into about .265" using my Palma load (46 Varget/Lapua case/F-210M/Sierra 155 Palma), which I really expected due to the pieces. BUT...the reason for this post is scopes. I compared 4 scopes, using something I printed out @ 200 yds. Bushnell Tactical Elite, Burris XTR II, my 21+ yr old S&B 4-16 PM II and a buddy's brand new Leupold Mk 5 HD 7-35. For the $$$ I paid for the Bushnell, its damn good. I was surprised. My S&B and the Leupold were damn close I couldn't call it. The Burris was a major disappointment! I spent more time with it, trying to get it to sharpen up, for my eyeball, but gave up. Maybe I'll use it as a tomato stake... But to the reviews, on this site, and others, I ordered a Razor HD II last week. If it doesn't meet my expectations, I'm gonna be seriously PO'ed....as I could have taken the $$$ from the Burris, Razor, Bushnell and bought.... I know, I know.
 
The Burris XTR II seem to be hit and miss. I love mine but have heard that they started using better glass later on.
 
Sold the Burris XTR II...thank goodness. I'm seriously considering selling one (I've got too many!) rifles and buy a top tier scope. The Zeiss really has me interested, but I'm going to wait for the boys on this site that will give a review between it and the ZCO and the other contenders.
 
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