Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

[Bob 964]

For those who segregate brass, how important is it to segregate by brass manufacturer?

Example: Imagine 2 cases that have been prepared to the same specifications. They weigh the same. The distance from the case head to the shoulder is the same. The neck tension is the same. The only difference is the name of the manufacturer. If these cases were loaded with the same primers, same powder at the same charge weight, and the same bullet at the same seating dept, would you expect these bullets to perform the same or would the difference in manufacturer translate into any performance differences?

 

[patrol120]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

No, I would not expect them the perform the same. Even at the same weight, the case profile will vary by manufacturer. The difference may be nominal, but its there. No harder than it is to sort cases, I dont see a reason not to.

 

[Danco411]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

Agree. That just won't happen in reality. There are small differences in weight between batches of the same headstamp. Your best consistency will be loading batches of the same headstamp and by year if you can. I don't bother with year batches but do batch by manufacturer.

 

[Bob 964]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

Forgive me for not being more clear. These would not be new cases. These would be cases fire formed in the same gun and neck sized in the same die. So, I would think the case profiles would be the same or substantially similar.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob 964</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Forgive me for not being more clear. These would not be new cases. These would be cases fire formed in the same gun and neck sized in the same die. So, I would think the case profiles would be the same or substantially similar.
</div></div>

When I pick up brass, especially rifle brass, at the range, I always bag it by headstamp. When I go to load up ammo, I try and at least get batches together using the same headstamp.

It's not hard to do and while I have loaded up plinking ammo with various headstamps, I try and do say...25 and 25, or 30 and 20, if I have the numbers.

For me, it's just keeping things in order and tidy.

Chris

 

[mjb2]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

External dimensions may be the same but interior dimensions may be significantly different . Try weighing cases and look at the differences between manufacturers. There can be significant differences...Sorting by manufacturer minimizes at least some of the potential differences. Then try sorting buy year of manufacturer (if shown) or by batch number (if known)...

Excuse me - you said they weigh the same...But different alloys of brass used by different manufacturers may still result in differing interior case volumes. Sort them.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

I would just say it depends on what your going to use the brass for. If you're just going to spray down the country side with lead than sorting wouldn't be important at all but if you're looking at some precision than you're going to want to at least sort your brass by head-stamp.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob 964</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those who segregate brass, how important is it to segregate by brass manufacturer?

Example: Imagine 2 cases that have been prepared to the same specifications. They weigh the same. The distance from the case head to the shoulder is the same. The neck tension is the same. The only difference is the name of the manufacturer. If these cases were loaded with the same primers, same powder at the same charge weight, and the same bullet at the same seating dept, would you expect these bullets to perform the same or would the difference in manufacturer translate into any performance differences?

</div></div>

Headstamp or manufacturer? Your original question is on manufacturer but in your example you talk about headstamp. They are not necessarily one and the same.

I think it is important to sort my manufacturer, not necessarily by headstamp. Many smaller companies have their headstamped brass made by another company. Example: Blackhills brass seems to be made by Winchester, based from my samples . Other than the headstamp, EVERYTHING about the brass is the SAME, so I don't separate them.

 

[pjparker]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

As a long-time reloader (30+ yrs), I consider it mandatory.

If I am going to spend my time reloading, I feel like I owe it to myself to make the best stuff I can. Mixed headstamp brass insures that you are introducing a variable, and that is what we are striving to eliminate.

Even assembling "blasting" ammo for short range fun stuff, it just goes against the grain to not sort by headstamp, even if I have to do it after I have loaded it.

Paul

 

[DocB]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

Bob,

Still have to go through them by weight. I've got a collection of 30-06 brass by the same manufacturer which segregate out by 10 grain weight increments into three different groups.

HTH,
DocB

 

[jdmartin]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

I think keeping the head stamp the same is important. I agree with the factors mentioned above about brass qualities interior dimensions and so forth but, more specifically, I think keeping neck tension uniform is very important to producing accurate ammunition.Variations in neck thickness and brass hardness will produce variation in neck tension and degrade accuracy even with uniform weights.
I also agree that it depends on the use of the ammunition,but if I spend the money on quality bullets and powder,I do not want to put it in a mixed bunch of brass.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

Wow, no wonder some people still hold '1 moa' as an accuracy standard, this is the 3rd time I've seen a question like this asked in the last month or so.

As others have said, sorting by head stamp/manifacturer is as fundamental as it gets. They all use slightly different dimensions, processes and material composition. For the 308, Winchester brass and LC brass could have as much as 2 grains difference between loads of the same velocity.

However if your just plinking, then load it up and have fun.

 

[Bob 964]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob,

Still have to go through them by weight. I've got a collection of 30-06 brass by the same manufacturer which segregate out by 10 grain weight increments into three different groups.

HTH,
DocB </div></div>

Thanks Doc. I have been sorting by case weights. What prompted me to ask the question is that I have brass from Lapua, Federal, Black Hills, Hornady, Winchester. In making my measurements, I noticed that some cases (with different head stamps) had similar weight and length from case head to the shoulder. Naturally, I wondered if they would perform the same, and that's why I posed the question.

 

[aloreman]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

Dont think it makes a difference? size and trim them all the same then fill them with water and weigh the water

 

[DocB]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

Bob,

Rumor has it Hornady is made by Winchester and Nosler is made by Norma. BH is also rumored to be made by Winchester.

I've tested the Norma/Nosler connection in one cartridge and the Winchester/Hornady/BH in two. While you might get away with Hornady/Winchester comparisons, you won't with get away with the same assumption with BH. I use the same load in one cartridge with the Norma/Nosler brass, but I worked up to it and made other checks which were close in value as well.

You'll be better off working up to a load in different brass makes rather than assuming equal weight will perform the same. Only takes 20 rounds to do a ladder test to make sure you're safe.

HTH,
DocB

 

[timelinex]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

You might be getting ahead of yourself... Unless you personally enjoy your reloading time, sorting by weight or capacity might have limited returns. Sorting by manufacturer/headstamp/lot yes, but by capactiy depends on your accuracy expectations. My stock barrel savage shoots .5moa with my mixed lot winchester brass that has been fully prepped but not sorted. So if you want better accuracy than that, then you might want to get involved with sorting, but otherwise that isn't required for generally accepted accuracy standards...

 

[Bob 964]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob,

Rumor has it Hornady is made by Winchester and Nosler is made by Norma. BH is also rumored to be made by Winchester.

I've tested the Norma/Nosler connection in one cartridge and the Winchester/Hornady/BH in two. While you might get away with Hornady/Winchester comparisons, you won't with get away with the same assumption with BH. I use the same load in one cartridge with the Norma/Nosler brass, but I worked up to it and made other checks which were close in value as well.

You'll be better off working up to a load in different brass makes rather than assuming equal weight will perform the same. Only takes 20 rounds to do a ladder test to make sure you're safe.

HTH,
DocB </div></div>

That's good to know Doc. Thanks again.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

segregating is a must for rifle ammo, for pistols loads, not so much.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob 964</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thanks Doc. I have been sorting by case weights. What prompted me to ask the question is that I have brass from Lapua, Federal, Black Hills, Hornady, Winchester. In making my measurements, I noticed that some cases (with different head stamps) had similar weight and length from case head to the shoulder. Naturally, I wondered if they would perform the same, and that's why I posed the question.</div></div>

I think it is important to know why you sort by weight... you are using weight as a proxy to get internal case capacity as close to possible for each piece of brass. With the same manufacturer, case wall thickness and case web thickness (thickness at the head of the case) will be similar and hopefully, roughly proportional. With different manufacturers, the case web thickness will vary and not necessarily in the same proportion to the thickness of the case wall.

In other words, weighing makes sense to try and figure out variations within a single manufacturer's process. Cases with the same weights should have very similar internal capacities. If you do this with multiple manufacturers, the same weight does not indicate the same internal capacity.

So, if you are bothering to sort by weight, you should definitely segregate by manufacturer. If you don't care, you don't care, but just know that there can be relatively large differences in internal case capacity from manufacturer to manufacturer. I think MontanaMarine did some work on this a while back and found something like .3 grains difference between Winchester and Lapua in 308. That is significant.

 

[03psd]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

I understand what is being said but then allow me to ask the next most logical question.

Do you have different load worked up for each different lots of brass? Unless you are buying 1000 piece lots of brass and only use the same 1000 pieces, I dont see how doing so is practicle.
I sort my brass by headstamp but use the the same load in all of them. I suppose I could get better accuracy by developing a load for each lot of brass but that would be dozens of different loads for the same rifle since I acquire brass in 20-250 piece lots from a variety of sources including range pick ups, factory boxes, friends who dont reload, equipment exchange here and across the street, etc.

Perhaps is just depends on what you consider accaeptable accuracy. As long as get consistent .5-.75 MOA I am happy.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

It was <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">2.0</span></span> grains difference between milsurp brass and WIN brass. That is huge:

https://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122179

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 03psd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand what is being said but then allow me to ask the next most logical question.

Do you have different load worked up for each different lots of brass? Unless you are buying 1000 piece lots of brass and only use the same 1000 pieces, I dont see how doing so is practicle.
I sort my brass by headstamp but use the the same load in all of them.

Perhaps is just depends on what you consider accaeptable accuracy. As long as get consistent .5-.75 MOA I am happy. </div></div>

It is generally best to run one load from the same manufacturer. If you segregate brass from the same manufacturer, then the zero might change a bit, but the difference in pressure probably won't be enough to get you off of your accuracy node unless it is a very tight accuracy node.

Where segregation will help in long range is keeping your follow up shots similar at long range. In F-class, this will tighten up your SD's, leading to more accuracy at range.

Now if you are switching manufacturers, the difference will likely be big enough to shift your accuracy node depending on the difference in case capacity between the two manufacturers. In that case, yes, you do need to have a different load worked up for each manufacturer. For this reason, most people into precision rifle standardize on a manufacturer.

There are other reasons for this as well. I use neck bushings to size without an expander ball. If I varied manufacturers and case thicknesses, my neck tension would vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. That will cause issues as well.

 

[George63]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

If you use mixed/ pick up brass and create ammo that never shoots over 3/4 moa you must be some kind of a handloading god

 

[03psd]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You need to go back and reread what I wrote and you quoted. I never said I never shot over .75 MOA. I simply said that if I can get a load to shoot .75 or better I am happy. I never said I am never disappointed. I have to weigh the trade offs in cost, time, reality of my and my rifles ability with the diminishing returns from adding additional steps to my reloading. Considering most off the shelf rifles with decent ammo will shoot 1 MOA, doing .75 with hand loads and a rifle that has been mildly worked I dont think is god like. Now getting down to .5 or better consistently is another story.

 

[DocB]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

03psd,

Yes, I work up different loads for different lots. My minimum case purchase is 300 cases and I usually purchase 500. These are sorted by a number of criteria into lots. I have an annealer and use it every three firings, so a case lasts a long time. I've also quit using range pickup brass for anything other than hunting ammo for buddies with a minimum to mid range charge. You've an obligation to keep them safe.

For the same reasons, I'll purchase bullets in a 1k minimum lot. This allows me to sort a lot of bullets by OGL and OAL while maintaining a reasonable lot size.

Accuracy is all about consistency,
DocB

 

[gunnut223]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

I sort every caliber by headstamp. Case to case, they might weigh different grains. The thickness of the brass varys. Every case, every caliber, every headstamp is different.

 

[George63]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunnut223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I sort every caliber by headstamp. Case to case, they might weigh different grains. The thickness of the brass varys. Every case, every caliber, every headstamp is different. </div></div>

and if you check internal volume of brass with the same headstamp and weight it will still vary

 

[Unknown]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

Although I would not trust cases to perform the same just because they weigh the same, or have the same outside dimensions. The brass causing the weight could be in different places.

However, when I compared 7.62x51 cases from lots of LC75 match cases, Federal GMM cases, and LC66 cases that have all been match prepped the same way, they all gave me velocity that was about the same. Sure, there were minor differences, but in all three groups of cases, the deviation in velocity for each case lot was about the same as for the other lots. I got less than 20 fps difference in all three lots.

The ambient temperature made a bigger difference in velocity changes than the different lots of brass did. Inside of 500 yards, I don't think it is worth worrying about for me. However, for long range shooting, I like to take out as many variables as I can reasonably control.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: Segregating brass by manufacturer - how important?

As mentioned, you need to cull them by mfr, I will even seperate year headstamps on LC brass. Velocity is based off of preasure, variances in internal case capacity will have a huge effect on pressure, a safe load with one case could be a dangerous load in another.

Kirk R