Setting Up your Sizing Dies

[Suasponte]

I have been helping a buddy learn how to reload and made this video to help him get his sizing die set up to properly size his brass.
I figure I would share this with the Hide Members and maybe help someone else in the process.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o6LXdYi1Pl0"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o6LXdYi1Pl0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Terry

 

[Munson]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

those were some good ideas, thanks for sharing. Your right, for some reason I always looked at setting up the dies as guess work till you get it right...but why guess. I'll have to run down to harbor freight and pick me up a set of those.

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Very slick. Correct me if im wrong. I primarily neck size my brass. This should not be bumping my shoulder back correct? So I would not set up my neck sizing die in the same fashion? Only my FL sizing dies?

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

This is for setting up a full length die. However, I do have a Redding full length neck die that this operation pertains to.

Terry

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Im shooting a 300winmag. Ultimately what id like to do is neck size, maybe bump the shoulder back 0.001, and size the case head when needed. In your opinion, what would be the best way to go about this?

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Belted magnums headspace on the rim above the rim of the case. However, bumping the shoulder back on the case would be done the same way.

I would run the die in till it bottoms out on the shell holder. Set the die there and size a case and measure how much the should is set back. Choose the correct thickness feeler gage and go from there.

Terry

Jig Stick, check your PM's

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Great system.

 

[vman]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Terry excellent vid... i was actually looking at doing something like this for a local forum I write on. You beat me to it as I dont have access to a video cam.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Nice work on the video, Terry! I need to set up my FL sizing die in the next few days, so the timing is perfect too!

Jim G

 

[smrkovsky]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Do you full lenght size and shoulder bump your brass each time you resize it, or do you alternate neck sizing your brass until it gets hard to chamber?

Great video, thanks.

Smrkovsky

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smrkovsky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you full lenght size and shoulder bump your brass each time you resize it, or do you alternate neck sizing your brass until it gets hard to chamber?

Great video, thanks.

Smrkovsky </div></div>

I full length about every 5th firing. The rest of the time I only neck size.

Terry

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

I had a couple PM's asking what is on top of the press. Behind the die.

It is a Wheat Penny that is the date of my Fathers Birthday for luck and a reminder for me to always be safe in what I do.

Terry

Feeler Gage @ Harbor Freight

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Here is the MO Gage. For those that have asked about it.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fo-nZ9x7v1w"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fo-nZ9x7v1w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Terry

 

[Clark]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

There are a million ways to adjust the sizer die, and now I see a new one. Keep the ring fixed and use different feeler gauges for different rifles.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

TAG

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

I saw two problems, about a second and a half after you stuck the feeler gauge under the lock ring....

1.) Not being wrenched down tight, that die will work it's way loose, at a varying amount, throughout a run of sizing...no way your sizing can be a consistant length with it doing that. I learned that decades ago making the mistake of only hand tightening a die. I actually torque mine to 200 inch pounds each and every time I put a die in the press...makes for 100% consistent sizing length doing that.

2.) There's enough slop in the threads of a die, and the threads of that press( I have the same stuff myself), that a feeler gauge installed like that is going to rock that die forward, and it won't be square to the ram....can't imagine the runout you are inducing with that set up. Now, if you came up with a precision washer system instead of the feeler gauge, problem solved.

As is, no thanks, not for me..........

 

[TexIndian]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Tripwire, Sinclair sells a set of round shims that will sit underneath the lock ring of your dies and eliminate the issues you mentioned. Skip's Machine Die Shims (item #22-400) come in a set for $10 and include shims of .003, .004, .005, .006, .007, .008, and .010. Just FYI. If you use the O-rings under your lock ring, these probably won't work but you could go to the Sinclair shell-holder set mentioned in the 1st video. (I hate sounding like a Sinclair salesman but they've got the stuff.)

And a question for SuaSponte - Do you know what the diameter of the Sinclair .30 cal. case gauge insert is? Same as the .400 in the Hornady? Does it really matter what the diameter is so long as you are measuring off of a consistent point on the shoulder?

 

[FLIGHT762]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw two problems, about a second and a half after you stuck the feeler gauge under the lock ring....

1.) Not being wrenched down tight, that die will work it's way loose, at a varying amount, throughout a run of sizing...no way your sizing can be a consistant length with it doing that. I learned that decades ago making the mistake of only hand tightening a die. I actually torque mine to 200 inch pounds each and every time I put a die in the press...makes for 100% consistent sizing length doing that.

2.) There's enough slop in the threads of a die, and the threads of that press( I have the same stuff myself), that a feeler gauge installed like that is going to rock that die forward, and it won't be square to the ram....can't imagine the runout you are inducing with that set up. Now, if you came up with a precision washer system instead of the feeler gauge, problem solved.

As is, no thanks, not for me.......... </div></div>

I thought the same thing when putting a feeler gauge under only one side of the die. I would think it could cock the die to one side, but I'm not a machinist.

My initial thought was using 2 feeler gauge sets, one on either side, that may work as long as you snug the die down well, or using a machined ring would be even better.

I do use the "Skips" machined rings from Sinclair. They work well for me. I think they cost me about $10.00.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

I am a novice at precision loading of rifle cartridges, but it seems to me that the Redding graduated shell holder approach ( a set of progressively higher shell holders that are each .001" higher than the last)might be superior to shimming the die in ANY way.

The reason I say this is because:

1. Changing shell holders SHOULD be more precise an adjustment than loosening, moving, and then retightening the die

2. Using the garduated shellholders enables you to better SEPARATELY vary sizing variables such as bump, OAD sizing, and neck sizing, by using a combination of die height, graduated shell holder, and neck bushing, as needed

3. No chance of "cocking" the die, or cocking it slightly differently, as a result of shimming or thread or tightening variances

4. The die, once set, can be correctly "compensated" for cases that vary slightly from a prior batch, again very precisely (.001" at a time)

Am I seeing this correctly?

Jim G

 

[rcamuglia]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I seeing this correctly?

Jim G

</div></div>

Yes.

I adust my dies by sizing a few randomly chosen from the lot of fired brass. All have been fired the same amount of times so work hardening is not an issue between pieces.

I set my dies to bump the shoulder .002". I've found much better accuracy doing this than neck sizing and so have most others. Bumping the shoulder less and getting a tight "crush fit" when the bolt is closed works for some rifles, but others like the brass to be sized enough that the bolt "falls" closed when a round is chambered for best accuracy. For most of my rifles, the latter is the case.

I use the Hornady headspace gauges that attach to your calipers. Size the fired brass sample, wipe clean, measure the bump, and try it in the chamber for fit.

It's simple to loosen the lock ring and make tiny minor adjustments to get it right, then size your lot...

 

[justme]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

There are many different ways to skin a cat & get the desired results.
What I found works best for me is a combo of the RCBS Precision Mic, Redding Competition shellholder set along with the Hornady checker.
I write everything down & keep it with my dies because as I have aged I have developed a bad case of CRS -(Can't remember shit)

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Yes, the dies should be tightened down with a wrench and checked if your sizing more than 50-100 rounds.

Also, the ring style shims are a better design than the feeler gages. I have Skips and use them too. However, I still do use the feeler gages for sizing.

With my shell holder floating in the ram the brass self centers itself in the die. The force is inline and should not put any axial loads into the die. The load on the die itself is strictly a shear load. Thus the use of a feeler gage under the lock ring will not induce runout into the case.

As for the Sinclair gage I am not familiar and do not know the answer.

Terry

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it really matter what the diameter is so long as you are measuring off of a consistent point on the shoulder? </div></div>

Yes, if your not measuring where the cartridge and chamber headspace then your not setting the headspace. 308 is .400" for the chamber and .400" for the cartridge. You should use the proper diameter headspace gage for the cartridge you are working with. That is why I show the relation on the video for that diameter.

Terry

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

"Does it really matter what the diameter is so long as you are measuring off a consistent point on the shoulder?"

No. All we need do is find where the fired shoulders ARE and keep them that length (or a tad shorter) after sizing. Therefore, any consistant reading is fine for the relitive measurments we need. Agonizing over measureing to the datum line to compare to SAAMI's charts for some specific length on a precision gage is meaningless to a reloader and precious few of us would bother to do it - we simply don't need a MO gage!

There is no reason to lock dies down with wrenches or pliers either. Well, not in a single stage press anyway - I suppose progressives can benefit from wrenches. But snug/finger tight is plenty tight and the dies won't move in a single stage like most of us use. Many die makers have supplied us with simple knurled die lock rings for decades - there's a message in that!

Attempting to set a sizer lock ring to a carefully set single "perfect" place once and for all is an excercise in futility; the cases spring back slightly different amounts by hardness. That means the amount of actual shoulder setback varies by brand AND how many times each case has been work hardened by firing/resizing. Anyone seriously wanting to be really precise time after time will tweak-adjust his sizer each time he reloads.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Terry, you mentioned in the video that you don't like an overcam. Why not? I feel that a firm but light overcam helps with my consistency

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Terry, you mentioned in the video that you don't like an overcam. Why not? I feel that a firm but light overcam helps with my consistency </div></div>

Despite its pervasive use and reocmmendaiton, an overcam is technially abusing the press and the die components. You are using the leverage available via the press mechanism to deliberately go to the "stop" point of mechanical motion, and then deliberately overstressing to ensure no remaining play or variability. The technique assumes that overstressing itself does not lead to deflection. In effect, you are assuming you will apply STRESS but not STRAIN. There is probably a long-term price in the way of increased wear. If you go TOO far, you can also break something.

As a degreed mechanical engineer, it just bothers me immensely to abuse a mechanical device in this way. I prefer to buy a press with good enough construction to preclude adverse amounts of play, and then set it up as clsoe to perfect as I can, without the overcamming.

Jim G

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Well I say if your press can't a little cam-over for a couple of decades of reloading you need another press, but shaving a little off the bottom of the die works good to, but the difference in ammo is nil.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Terry, you mentioned in the video that you don't like an overcam. Why not? I feel that a firm but light overcam helps with my consistency </div></div>

Despite its pervasive use and reocmmendaiton, an overcam is technially abusing the press and the die components. You are using the leverage available via the press mechanism to deliberately go to the "stop" point of mechanical motion, and then deliberately overstressing to ensure no remaining play or variability. The technique assumes that overstressing itself does not lead to deflection. In effect, you are assuming you will apply STRESS but not STRAIN. There is probably a long-term price in the way of increased wear. If you go TOO far, you can also break something.

As a degreed mechanical engineer, it just bothers me immensely to abuse a mechanical device in this way. I prefer to buy a press with good enough construction to preclude adverse amounts of play, and then set it up as clsoe to perfect as I can, without the overcamming.

Jim G</div></div>

Oh I agree with you, if the overcam is very stiff. But I really don't see the harm in a small amount of overcam to give a consistent pull each time.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Does it really matter what the diameter is so long as you are measuring off a consistent point on the shoulder?"

No. All we need do is find where the fired shoulders ARE and keep them that length (or a tad shorter) after sizing. Therefore, any consistant reading is fine for the relitive measurments we need. Agonizing over measureing to the datum line to compare to SAAMI's charts for some specific length on a precision gage is meaningless to a reloader and precious few of us would bother to do it - we simply don't need a MO gage!</div></div>

Agreed.....


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is no reason to lock dies down with wrenches or pliers either. Well, not in a single stage press anyway - I suppose progressives can benefit from wrenches. But snug/finger tight is plenty tight and the dies won't move in a single stage like most of us use. Many die makers have supplied us with simple knurled die lock rings for decades - there's a message in that!

Attempting to set a sizer lock ring to a carefully set single "perfect" place once and for all is an excercise in futility; the cases spring back slightly different amounts by hardness. That means the amount of actual shoulder setback varies by brand AND how many times each case has been work hardened by firing/resizing. Anyone seriously wanting to be really precise time after time will tweak-adjust his sizer each time he reloads.</div></div>

Disagreed, for the most part. Some of us, me specifically, anneal religiously, and for a reason. In fact, a shoulder that won't move as it's supposed to move is a tell tale indicator that I need to back up and anneal that lot of brass......

And as far as hand tight vs. wrenched tight; Your theory, Furrball, behind the knurling and the manufacturer, can only shed light on the fact that the manufacturer has no doubt wasted huge amounts of money over the years by going to the expense of providing a "nut" of some form as a lock ring. By your logic they should have only given us a smooth round collar to use as a locking ring, and yes I remember the round knurled lock rings.

Since the name of the game is consistancy I'll gladly err on the side of KNOWING my dies are at a precise setting every time. And, since I find just as much value in a piece of brass that <span style="font-style: italic">doesn't</span> size correctly (annealing indicator) as I do with one that does, I'll gladly take the error out of die/press part of the equation with a torque wrench. A witness mark would do the same thing but a torque value is faster, and more user friendly, and allows for a setting change, if ever necessary. Since our presses provide a machined 7/8-14 thread, which is cut with tolerance to accept EVERY die on the planet which is threaded with a tolerance to fit every press on the planet, it is simply ignorant to assume hand tightening is molto buona abbastanza, amico. Hand tightening a die cannot EVER reliably return a die to the same setting, and it allows for the potential to loosen, which it will...and even the slightest amount will change the degree of sizing unpredictably, and without warning. Torqued, at least with my shit, dies are square to the ram, and they won't move, ever.

A facetious question, for your overwhelming faculties of logic and syllogism; if one only drive 2 miles to work and back every day, and nowhere else, do we need bother with torquing our vehicle's lug nuts?

YMMV, of course.......

 

[Dtarget]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

I have MO gauges and use them all the time. They are really useful when you are loading ammo for a variety of rifles of the same caliber. Any sized case that reads below "0" should chamber in any rifle.

Mo must be onto something because RCBS also makes a similar device.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

"A facetious question, for your overwhelming faculties of logic and syllogism;.."

Syllogism?!! Now Trip, I didn't even know I had one of those so if my keyboard is ruined by the iced tea I just sprayed it YOU owe me a new one!

Okay, you have my permission to use a torque wrench on die lock rings if it makes you feel good. I just do my set-up (every time) with either my RCBS Precision Case Mics or Hornady/Stoney Point tools, that way my case shoulders are where I want them to be. So, finger tight knurled rings are plenty tight enough for me.

I suspect round steel knurled lock rings made on automated machinery costs slightly more to make than alum hex rings.

My neck annealing is more or less after six firings.

MO's gage is not as versatile as the Precision Mics - not for me anyway - and I don't see how using it would make any difference from a MO IF I wanted to load ammo for a wad of same caliber rifles. ??

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Not directed at you Furrball, but pay attention, you might learnt sumthin'......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suasponte</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, the dies should be tightened down with a wrench and checked if your sizing more than 50-100 rounds.

Also, the ring style shims are a better design than the feeler gages. I have Skips and use them too. However, I still do use the feeler gages for sizing.

With my shell holder floating in the ram the brass self centers itself in the die. The force is inline and should not put any axial loads into the die. The load on the die itself is strictly a shear load. Thus the use of a feeler gage under the lock ring will not induce runout into the case.

As for the Sinclair gage I am not familiar and do not know the answer.

Terry </div></div>

Just for shits and giggles I did a little proof testing. If only to bolster my position, since I hate being told I'm wrong. No, I'm not going to trash any brass to further prove my point, so this will have to do towards supposition of fact.

Shown is the same press (maybe a year old) as the OP's, same locking rings, and a Redding micrometer seater die, as that's what was already in the press, but you'll get the point.

First pic is to show the inherent slop in the threads....I stacked .090" under one side, pulled the die forward, and measured .108" in the rear. That's a difference of .018" across 7/8" by just pulling the slack out if it.

Next demostrates the OP's feeler gauge deal, with .090 stacked under the back side, with it "hand tight" as defined likely by Furrball...which equates to about maybe 50ish inch pounds on my torque wrench, this time. The front under the lock ring measures .081". a difference of .009" across the 7/8" diameter of the die.

The last is the same set up as before with the die torqued to 100 inch pounds, a fair representation of anybody's "wrench tight" via anybody's standard cresent wrench. A fair bit more than Furrball's handtight, but not as much as my normal 200 inch pounds of torque...since I really don't want to chance stressing my threads. .090" under the back and .074" under the front, a difference of .016" across the 7/8" diameter of the die.

I'm not going to bother determining what the vertical displacement of the die is as you don't hafta eat a shit sandwich to know it's going to taste like shit. "Floating" shell holder or not, it's likely to induce unnecessary, preventable, runout. Since I'm fairly partial to my tolerance of .000" to 001" TIR on turned necks, I'm going to stick with squared up dies and my torque wrench.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Trip, I assume you eschew the totally unsecured held hand dies - Wilson, etc, all totally unthreaded - used by most of the BR crowd? (It's hard to put a torque wrench on them things ... but you could use pliers!) As mentioned before, you - and everyone else - have my blessings to use any method of die retention you prefer. But pushing/pulling sideways on the top of a threaded die isn't exactly how they normally get used, right?

Suasponte: <span style="font-style: italic">"With my shell holder floating in the ram <span style="text-decoration: underline">the brass self centers itself in the die. The force is inline and should not put any axial loads into the die.</span> The load on the die itself is strictly a shear load. Thus the use of a feeler gage under the lock ring will not induce runout into the case."</span>

You are certainly correct on that point. I don't like using a feeler gage under one side of a lock ring - see no value to doing that as opposed to simply setting the lock ring where I want it - but it sure works. The loose tolerances of a shell holder means it <span style="text-decoration: underline">cannot possibly</span> hold a case so firmly cocked that any tiny amount of therotical off-axis side force could induce case and bullet misalignment/runout. No sandwich of any kind need be eated to understand that!

 

[Dtarget]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Makes me glad I use a CoAx.

If only shimming one side is an issue, why not just use a set of Skip Shims ?

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

"Makes me glad I use a CoAx."

You raise another good point in favor of loosely held dies that allow cases to easily self center.

 

[kskevin]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Terry,

have you considered placing your feeler guage over the shell holder, raising the ram, then screwing down the die. This will avoid the torsional loading Tripwire was highlighting while leveraging the accuracy of adjusting the die based on the precision of the feeler guage amount needed?

Just a thought. Seems like the best of both worlds.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trip, I assume you eschew the totally unsecured held hand dies - Wilson, etc, all totally unthreaded - used by most of the BR crowd? (It's hard to put a torque wrench on them things ... but you could use pliers!) As mentioned before, you - and everyone else - have my blessings to use any method of die retention you prefer. But pushing/pulling sideways on the top of a threaded die isn't exactly how they normally get used, right?

Suasponte: <span style="font-style: italic">"With my shell holder floating in the ram <span style="text-decoration: underline">the brass self centers itself in the die. The force is inline and should not put any axial loads into the die.</span> The load on the die itself is strictly a shear load. Thus the use of a feeler gage under the lock ring will not induce runout into the case."</span>

You are certainly correct on that point. I don't like using a feeler gage under one side of a lock ring - see no value to doing that as opposed to simply setting the lock ring where I want it - but it sure works. The loose tolerances of a shell holder means it <span style="text-decoration: underline">cannot possibly</span> hold a case so firmly cocked that any tiny amount of therotical off-axis side force could induce case and bullet misalignment/runout. No sandwich of any kind need be eated to understand that!

</div></div>

So, by your simply stunning logic, again, everyone on this board, and all the others, who concern themselves with precision ammo reloading have wasted vast amounts of money, and effort, on quality reloading gear....we all could do just as well with a Lee Loader and a rock.

Son of a..........

 

[jake_c02]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

Nice video thanks for sharing!

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSKevin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Terry,

have you considered placing your feeler guage over the shell holder, raising the ram, then screwing down the die. This will avoid the torsional loading Tripwire was highlighting while leveraging the accuracy of adjusting the die based on the precision of the feeler guage amount needed?

Just a thought. Seems like the best of both worlds. </div></div>

Yes I have, However this die does not protrude below the press to do so. Most of the time I use the Circular shims (Skips Shims).

 

[EWP]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not directed at you Furrball, but pay attention, you might learnt sumthin'......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suasponte</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, the dies should be tightened down with a wrench and checked if your sizing more than 50-100 rounds.

Also, the ring style shims are a better design than the feeler gages. I have Skips and use them too. However, I still do use the feeler gages for sizing.

With my shell holder floating in the ram the brass self centers itself in the die. The force is inline and should not put any axial loads into the die. The load on the die itself is strictly a shear load. Thus the use of a feeler gage under the lock ring will not induce runout into the case.

As for the Sinclair gage I am not familiar and do not know the answer.

Terry </div></div>

Just for shits and giggles I did a little proof testing. If only to bolster my position, since I hate being told I'm wrong. No, I'm not going to trash any brass to further prove my point, so this will have to do towards supposition of fact.

Shown is the same press (maybe a year old) as the OP's, same locking rings, and a Redding micrometer seater die, as that's what was already in the press, but you'll get the point.

First pic is to show the inherent slop in the threads....I stacked .090" under one side, pulled the die forward, and measured .108" in the rear. That's a difference of .018" across 7/8" by just pulling the slack out if it.

Next demostrates the OP's feeler gauge deal, with .090 stacked under the back side, with it "hand tight" as defined likely by Furrball...which equates to about maybe 50ish inch pounds on my torque wrench, this time. The front under the lock ring measures .081". a difference of .009" across the 7/8" diameter of the die.

The last is the same set up as before with the die torqued to 100 inch pounds, a fair representation of anybody's "wrench tight" via anybody's standard cresent wrench. A fair bit more than Furrball's handtight, but not as much as my normal 200 inch pounds of torque...since I really don't want to chance stressing my threads. .090" under the back and .074" under the front, a difference of .016" across the 7/8" diameter of the die.

I'm not going to bother determining what the vertical displacement of the die is as you don't hafta eat a shit sandwich to know it's going to taste like shit. "Floating" shell holder or not, it's likely to induce unnecessary, preventable, runout. Since I'm fairly partial to my tolerance of .000" to 001" TIR on turned necks, I'm going to stick with squared up dies and my torque wrench.

</div></div>



Your ammo will NOT shoot any differently if you have +/-.0005" of shoulder setback, a half thou difference in shoulder bump isn't going to make a slightest bit of difference in anything.

I guess you torque you seating die also thinking it will give you exact bullet seating depths or less run out.

A sizing die set on an o-ring were it can float will give consistent sizing to less than a half thou with properly annealed brass and have less sizing induced run out.

Tight, loose, it doesn't matter, the key is to make sure it stays where you put it after set and doesn't move.

This thread has given me a good laugh if nothing else.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

I do spend a lot of time at the reloading bench aiming for perfection, but I really have to agree with the above post. After a certain point, the law of diminishing returns really sets in hard. I am getting a headache for even entertaining the thought of trying to square up the die on my press. Don't fix something that isn't broken.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

I'm new to really high precision handloading, but I do understand engineering. Let's be a little analytical for a moment.

I think we can all agree that the threads in a die and press's toolhead are at an angle; they HAVE t be in order for the die to move upward or downward as you rotate it.

I think we can also agree that there has to be a little "play" between the threads on the die and the threads in the toolhead, in order that the sheer frcitional forces don't prevent us from rotating the die at ALL.

However, when we rotate the die and then TIGHTEN a locknut, we do 2 things:

1. We ensure that the die is not tilted

2. We take out the play in the threads by (test this by TRYNG to move a tightened die up or down or in ANY direction)

Thus, the die is "square" to the press, AND fixed in its position. Both those thing are good. Provided of course that the REST of the setup is high precision (i.e. die itself is machined properly, case holder concentric with die, cases concentric, etc)

When we put a rubber donut under the die, we are basically admitting that the rest of the setup is NOT high enough precision, so we want to "float" the die a bit to make up for alignment errors elsewhere in the setup. That can indeed make better ammunition THAN YOU WERE GETTING or COULD GET, IF the rest of the setup is imperfect enough to generate flaws greater than that introduced by the "unfixing" of the die. But, don't kid yourself - you ARE making the die itself less precise by taking away the ensured rigidity and alignment you had when you tightened it metal to metal into the toolhead.

Now if you insert a shim under only ONE side of the die, you are hurting angular alignment simply because you are "tilting" the die. And, it's worse than meets the eye, because you are not only tilting it, you are also then taking out the thread slack unequally, AND leaving the side of the die that is opposite from the shim unsupported. With the gigantic forces that a good press can generate, especially when cammed over, you are bound to move that die a bit more out of alignment. And, as the diameter or wall thickness of the case varies, that displacement will vary simply because the force you need to apply to size it will vary with diameter and wall thickness.

If you instead insert a shim that encompasses entirely, or encompasses MOST of the circumference of the die, you get back closer to that truly fixed die you had when you simply tightened it down to the toolhead. But, since you either need to remove and reinstall the die each time you change the shim (if it is a "washer" type shim), or loosen and retighten the die each time you change the shim thickness, trying to find or install that "right" shim thickness, you screw up the precision a bit because I don't care HOW good you think you are with die registration and / or a torque wrench, I doubt you'll get everything right and consistent each and every time.

But, if you instead use a solution like Redding's graduated shell holders, you set up the die ONCE to as close as you can, then dial in the exact vertical height via swapping out graduated shell holders. THAT gives you pretty good precision, because you are not constantly loosening, tightening, installing, or removing that die. You make the required chnages with the graduated shell holders.

Just my thoughts. I don't have enough experience in truly high precision loading to act like any sort of expert. But, it's the approach I am going to try, since it seems to contain the fewest opportunities for loss of precision.

Jim G

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

"Just my thoughts. I don't have enough experience in truly high precision loading to act like any sort of expert. But, it's the approach I am going to try, since it seems to contain the fewest opportunities for loss of precision."

Jim, you'll learn! But understand that a finger tight die has already taken up as much thread slack as it ever will, using a wrench on a die just compresses the threads a bit more than is necessary. And it slows the process of die swapping too.

On the engineering side, let me add that press 'cam over' is a much misunderstood topic; it's really just a function of the rotating toggle block and lever, not how much pressure the user may or may not feel. I mean once the ram has reached top dead center and the toggle block continues to roll a little further that extra movement means it has 'cammed-over' top dead center and the ram moves down some small amount. Thus, cam-over occurs when we fully lower the lever to it's stop even if there is no die in the press.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Setting Up your Sizing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> once the ram has reached top dead center and the toggle block continues to roll a little further that extra movement means it has 'cammed-over' top dead center and the ram moves down some small amount. Thus, cam-over occurs when we fully lower the lever to it's stop even if there is no die in the press. </div></div>

I agree, BUT when there IS a die in the press, in the course of going through the process I quoted you on above, the die, and the case, and the press, have been stressed and then slightly relieved, as you went through the camming-over process. It's the un-modelable nature of the effects of that overstress that bother me.

Jim G