Setup/Improvement Questions

[scott123456789]

Been having the long range bug bad lately and have been hanging around a couple guys into more than I have ever been that is quickly costing me some money.

The latest rifle I am working with is a Remington LTR in .308, with a 3-9x42 SS scope. Has the 40x trigger turned way down and a cheek rest.

The first day out with the rifle shot about 3/4moa at 100 and was having no trouble banging steel at 500. We setup some paper and things weren't as impressive. Was getting 5" or so groups at 500. Not terrible I guess but nothing to brag about either. So my question is what would net the most improvement.

I know trigger time is a wonderful thing and plan to do more shooting at these ranges and beyond.

I currently do not reload but have been around it enough to know what to do but I would be looking at $600 to start rolling my own ammo that I could see that money being better spent elsewhere.

While the 3-9 glass is great, first time with the Mil adjustments and really enjoyed that feature, but holding on the same spot at these longer ranges with only 9 power doesn't seem super conducive to 2" or so groups. For not a bunch more I could get into a PST and have a bit more zoom which could help see the same spot repeatedly.

Also we were just using sandbags. Gets pretty steady but would a mono-pod in the rear help steady the rifle and have a much more consistent rear support?

Need a better stock? AICS or something expensive? Not sure how much accuracy I am losing from the HS precision?

Bolt work? True the action up, match ream the action etc?


So basically besides time, what is it that really takes it to the next step with legitimate return on investment? We are going to be changing our setup to get into the 1000 ball park and want to get 500 figured out a bit better and clean up my setup before we go that way.

 

[Hi Speed]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

You need the trigger time. You can't buy or read up on it. That group is good for what you are using. (ammo/gun) Most use a rear bag. Triad Tactical comes to mind. Your scope X could hamper you if your quest is uber tight groups at LR. Then again Higher power reveals all of your shaking, breathing, and nerves. Trigger time usually helps if bad habits are not being formed. Bipod and rear sand bag Is the norm around here for LR shooting. I would accurize that rifle if only to eliminate those variables. Your set up is only as good as it's weakest link. This includes your ability as well as your gun and glass. Only you know the weakest link. IMHO I would fix it first.

 

[scott123456789]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

How important is 100 yard groups on the 500 yard shooting. Do I need to be in the 1/3-1/2" ball park to expect much more at 500? Then I could see reloading being very beneficial. Although I didn't spend much time at 100 yards today.

 

[mdavis78102]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

+1 for trigger time.

 

[pistolpacknpete]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

trigger time! trigger time! trigger time! that said, i think the hs stock is a good stock. you can bed the action and that will help it some. if you are thinking that your scope power isn't enough then go with more power. i shoot a ten power on my 223 savage out to 600yds and its still sub moa but i need more power so on my 308 i went with a pst 6-24 ffp. much much better. myself i don't care for the 40x trigger im guna replace mine. i think i will go with a timney 510 but there is plenty of options out there. i think reloading is pretty important if u are going to be serious about it and have your rifle perform at its best. the reason being is that you can fine tune your ammo to the rifles likings. and i don't think u would have to spend 600 to get started. you can get into a starter kit pretty cheap and just build off of that one. that's what i did. either way good luck. only other advice i have is stick around here, there is a lot of people that know what they are talking about and u can really benefit from their experiences

 

[sethmstanton]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

It comes down to trigger time, but that is only part of the equation. In my opinion there are 4 parts that all need to be capable of producing CONSISTANT accuracy.

1. Shooter and ability to consistantly apply the fundamentals and accurate wind calls.

This is where the quality trigger time comes in and proper data collection.

2. Rifle. Rifle needs to be capable to produce the accuracy you desire. Whether that be 1.5 MOA, 1 MOA, .5 MOA, .25 MOA, or less.

I don't think your stock is incapable of producing the accuracy you desire, but you could skim bed it if you like. Darn sure won't hurt. Ensure that your barrel is free floating and nothing impedes the natural barrel whip. Ensure that your action is torqued properly. Bipods and a rear bag is the standard here. A quality monopod is definately nice though. I'd recommend Harris or Atlas bipods, and not necessarily in that order. Make sure you install a cheek piece on your rifle to ensure your stock weld remains consistant shot to shot. And of course you can go the distance with the installation of a quality barrel, and action trying from a reputable gunsmith of which this site is not in short supply of. However, I don't think that is needed in your situation right now.

3. Optic. Your optic needs to be consistant and accurate in its tracking. Adjustable paralax. Knobs should be Target style and the reticle needs to be scaled and match your knob adjustments. Whether that be in MOA, MILS, or iphy. If looking to get into long range I'd definately recommend a scope with a higher magnification in the 20x range and a low magnification in the 5x power range. You don't need to brake the bank with your scope but don't skimp on the glass. The following is a list of optics id recommend in order of cost from least to the.more expensive;

Bushnell Elite Tactical 4200 series $650.00 range
Vortex Viper PST. $800.00 range
SS 5-20x50 FFP. $1200.00 range

These are great scopes and FFP at that.

Used Nightforce 3.5-15x50. $1250.00 range
Used Nightforce 5.5-22x50. $1400.00 range

Those prices are no zero stop and no high speed turrets SFP, prices will increas to the $1600-$1800 range with those options.

Then you start getting into the US Optics, F1 Nightforce, Schmidt&Benders, Premier, Vortex Razor, and March scopes. These will range from $2000-$3500 range.

4. Ammunition. You will be served well to reload your own ammo if looking to achieve the most accuracy desired. Not saying that there is not factory ammunition that will shoot .5 MOA at extended range but I think your chances of achieving it are better with custom ammo built for your specific rifle.

I think that combination of the above stated elements are the best way to achieve
Consistant accuracy. You see why people can drop a pretty penny on thier equipment. It is to remove ALL doubt in the equipment when a miss occurs. When a shot is blown they know it is not tje ammo, rifle, or scope. It was them.

That being said, shooting 1 MOA at 500 is not bad at all, especially with a 308 in the wind. Nothing to be ashamed with at all. If you could continue to hold 1 MOA all the way out to a grand consistantly, you'd be the envy of us all

.

Hope that helps abit, and I'm sure others will chime in and possibly add somethings that I may have missed. Good luck and welcome to our addiction!

 

[pistolpacknpete]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

hogslife said it perfect. i spent all the money i did on my set up to know that it was at its best and that if it wasn't performing it wasn't my equipment. just peace of mind.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I currently do not reload but have been around it enough to know what to do but I would be looking at $600 to start rolling my own ammo that I could see that money being better spent elsewhere.</div></div>

Where can you find better places to spend your shooting dollars?

I'm one who believes you can't gimmick your way to good shooting but I'll have to make an exception here. Spending money to cut the per round cost, giving you more rounds for the buck to put down range, assuming you're sticking with sound marksmanship fundamentals is the exception to the "not buying progress" rule.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> holding on the same spot at these longer ranges with only 9 power doesn't seem super conducive to 2" or so groups</div></div>

Don't blame the glass, "steady hold" is the job of the shooter, not the scope.

 

[pinsandpitons]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

Hey there,
Just my .02 on where to spend time and money. I think your $600 estimate for entry into reloading is a bit steep. I got into it for about $100 and have upgraded a bit but have still spent much less then $600 on tools. I would suggest the RCBS rockchucker kit as a great place to start (and maybe end). I also really like the Lee breachlock press and the hornady lock N' Load press.

I think you need at a minimum;

-a piece of glass that you can trust and does the things you need from it. The list above looks great, I would add the Leupold mark 4 with M5 in there too. That's the most expensive thing you should do. Also, high power isn't necessary, 14 to 16 as a max magnification is more than enough to shoot accurately at 1K yds.

-a good trigger. Doesn't have to be a jewel (though I LOVE mine), but a safe, clean trigger pull without too much slop and pre/over travel. You could probably work a bit on the one you have. 2-3 lbs is plenty light enough if you're using marksmanship fundamentals.

-consistent scope and action torques, bedding does really help and isn't expensive or hard. Don't bother with a new stock unless you can't find a way to get a good cheek weld. Check out the Karsten cheek rest. Cheep, effective, easy to install and use. I used a couple wine bottle corks ace wrapped to the top of my stock for quite a while, worked great.

-reload! It's cheaper, which equals more practice for the same money, but more importantly you can tailor the load to the rifle and in the proccess learn some important lessons about evaluation, just be cautious and don't fall in with the max pressure crowd. Most of the best loads come from less than max pressure. Check out the ladder test method.


Bottom line is don't overthink it too much. Buy the best equipment you can justify. Trigger, glass, stock in that order then build, duct tape, create, tinker, and tear apart the other stuff. It's your rifle. Then work on the nut behind the trigger.

Oh, and get a bipod and learn to load it properly, you won't go back.

Take care and have fun.

 

[pinsandpitons]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

Just reread your original post and realized that you're already doing so well on the equipment side and shooting side. I got carried away with my post... oops sorry. Ranging reticle? Viper PST, for the value it's hard to beat. Get a harris with the cant able base in a field usefull height (9-13"), there's a good reason they are the most popular. Pull the reloading trigger (pun intended).

-Cheers

 

[pinsandpitons]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

5" at 500 is a bit tighter than 1 moa. That's great and would get better with ammo the gun likes. Sometimes the tight group at 100 can open up down range and visa versa.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Setup/Improvement Questions

The advice given above is conventional and good.

If I had to offer a critique, it would be to say that it puts a lot of emphasis on the gear, rather than the shooter.

While good gear is essential to precision, it can offer no guarantees of success without a matching degree of excellence contained within the shooter's own skill set.

Recognize this above all else. You cannot buy your way into the 'X' ring.

If I were thinking about spending some money on handloading, and decided to try and find something else to spend it on that would be more beneficial; it would be a simple, reliable 22 Bolt gun and a simple, reliable scope atop it. Do it right and you'll have money left over from a $600 kitty to buy a bunch of CCI Standard Velocity Target ammo for it.

Get dependable instruction and shoot the heck out of it before embarking on a career as a long range shootista.

Then, spend to your heart's content on fulfilling the advice given above this post.

Greg