Rifle Scopes SFP Mil Mil Question

[ole'soldier]

In my searches, I can't find an answer to this question so here it goes. I'm aware of the difference between 1st and 2nd focal plane scopes and the benefit of having MOA:MOA and Mil:Mil, so what am I missing with a Mil:Mil 2nd focal plane scope like the Weaver Tactical Grand Slam or Millet LRS? Do you have to range at a particular magnification, what about holds? Most scopes I see that are Mil:Mil are FFP scopes so I'm aware of the benefits of ranging and doing holds with them.

Any help is appreciated.

This is the Weaver sold by Midway below:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/837380/...ith-rings-matte

The Millet:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/837380/...ith-rings-matte

 

[Willyz_54]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

In general with any SFP scope, regardless of Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA, there is a specific magnification that must be used for ranging and holdovers. Unless otherwise stated by the manufacturer, this is generally the maximum magnification. For example, I had an SFP 5.5-22 NXS MLR reticle. When ranging or determining corrections, it had to be at 22x for each mil and half mil hash to be just that. When dialed back to 11x, it was approximate, but each half mil hash became a mil and each 1 mil hash became 2 mils.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

I figured that was the deal. I have a Mueller 4.5-14x40 APT (MIL/MOA) scope and was looking at moving to a matching reticle and turret. I didn't see any real benefit with the above scopes once I saw they were SFP other than not having to do any math on the specified magnification.

Thanks for the response.

 

[eclipse57]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

You actually cut and pasted the same scope in both links. NBD.

If the Weaver that you are looking at is the Weaver tactical 3-10 scope, it is a lot of scope for the money.

I have one and I am very happy with it. It tracks well and is good glass for the price. There are no frills with this scope, but if you pick it up when midway has it marked down to $ 299.00, it is an outstanding buy.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eclipse57</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You actually cut and pasted the same scope in both links. NBD.

If the Weaver that you are looking at is the Weaver tactical 3-10 scope, it is a lot of scope for the money.

I have one and I am very happy with it. It tracks well and is good glass for the price. There are no frills with this scope, but if you pick it up when midway has it marked down to $ 299.00, it is an outstanding buy. </div></div>


You're right, my bad.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/458997/...r-reticle-matte



The Weaver is marked down right now so I gave it a quick look and then started to seriously consider it. I was also looking at SWFA's SS in either 10 or 12X but would rather a variable. I tend to shoot anything at 100yds or more with my scope maxed out at 14X, paper punching anyway, so that's what made the Weaver appealing. I like the idea of being able to crank the power down if necessary.

 

[eclipse57]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: #shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eclipse57</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You actually cut and pasted the same scope in both links. NBD.

If the Weaver that you are looking at is the Weaver tactical 3-10 scope, it is a lot of scope for the money.

I have one and I am very happy with it. It tracks well and is good glass for the price. There are no frills with this scope, but if you pick it up when midway has it marked down to $ 299.00, it is an outstanding buy. </div></div>


Your right, my bad.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/458997/...r-reticle-matte



The Weaver is marked down right now so I gave it a quick look and then started to seriously consider it. I was also looking at SWFA's SS in either 10 or 12X but would rather a variable. I tend to shoot anything at 100yds or more with my scope maxed out at 14X, paper punching anyway, so that's what made the Weaver appealing. I like the idea of being able to crank the power down if necessary. </div></div>

I had a Bushnell fixed 10 power scope on my rifle and it worked well for 100 yards and beyond. The problem was that at 55 yrs old anything I tried to shoot under 100 yards was a blur. Now with the Weaver, I can back the power down to 3 or 4 power and shoot 25, 50, 60 or 75 yards with much more clarity.

The only thing I wish the Weaver had was side foucus. But then it would not be a 300.00 scope.

Best of luck with your decision. I wish the internet had been around 40 years ago. I will never buy anything again that is not mil/mil. But that is just me.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

It's not a decision I need to make now. I was more concerned about what a SFP Mil Mil scope brought to the table. As I understood it, it would have the same problems that any SFP scope would have with regard to ranging and holds and Willyz pointed that out.

I have never owned a FFP scope and I am used to MIL/MOA but I'm starting to do a bit of research so knowing me that means a change is coming down the line.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

The nice thing about the Weaver 3-10x is the reticle is subtended for 10x...which is where I find I do about 95% of my shooting (mine is on a Savage FV-SR 22LR trainer).

I'm down to four scoped rifles I shoot with any regularity...three are mil/mil and the fourth is a deer rifle with a 150yd zero that does what I need it to do just fine.

Mil/mil all the way IMO...

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

The mil mil option is what I'm toying with. I guess the real question is what advantage does a SFP MIL MIL offer over a SFP MIL MOA scope? Those of you with Weavers, do you find yourself dialing your shots easier or do holds easier? Are you wishing for parallel adjustment or FFP?

 

[mjh30]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

#shooter, its nice to have matching reticle/turrets whether or not its sfp or ffp. Go with either one or the other, I prefer mil/mil but some others prefer moa/moa especially since some companies are coming out with some great moa reticle choices. Not so sure I am impressed with the Millett, would think the Weaver is better value for money, look for a quality used scope even if its a fixed power. Search this forum for answers, reviews on scopes, its all here.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">#shooter, its nice to have matching reticle/turrets whether or not its sfp or ffp. Go with either one or the other, I prefer mil/mil but some others prefer moa/moa especially since some companies are coming out with some great moa reticle choices. Not so sure I am impressed with the Millett, would think the Weaver is better value for money, look for a quality used scope even if its a fixed power. Search this forum for answers, reviews on scopes, its all here. </div></div>

Kinda had this in mind if I went fixed (new that is):

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42M-Tactical-Riflescope-P53713.aspx

Maybe the 12X version, but I don't see side focus available so may not be ideal at that power setting.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

The 12x has a focus...its just at the rear, not the side.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 12x has a focus...its just at the rear, not the side. </div></div>


I see it now.....

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

FWIW:

MidwayUSA currently isn't showing the Weaver GS Tactical 3-10x as "on sale" but its still priced at $299...so you can use the discount codes.

$279 shipped for this scope is a great deal IMO

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FWIW:

MidwayUSA currently isn't showing the Weaver GS Tactical 3-10x as "on sale" but its still priced at $299...so you can use the discount codes.

$279 shipped for this scope is a great deal IMO </div></div>



The Midway sale is tempting. I was considering the Weaver and Midway's BSA Mil Mil scope for a budget scope with a matching system. The Weaver has the edge in my mind.

With Black Friday approaching, I think that may be the right time to make a switch.



Thanks for the input guys.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

I'm pulling the trigger on a Bushnell Elite Tactical from Midway. It's their exclusive 10-40x Mil Mil version on sale for 229. What's cool with the pricing is there's an online code which will get you 20 bucks off, free shipping currently on optics, and Bushnell is running a rebate for $75 dollars back good until the end of the month.

I called Bushnell yesterday to double check the rebate considering this is only made for midway and doesn't show on Bushnell's website, lady(CS) checked to be certain and told me yes you will get the rebate and it qualifies for the Bushnell guaranty and if the center in El Paso(rebate company) gives you any issues they will take care of it for you. Some members at Sniper Central have already received emails stating their rebates are being processed.

That rebate along with free shipping and a 20 off code puts this scope at a whopping 135 when the dust clears. For a Japanese scope with matching turrets and reticle with the Elite features is a bit insane at this price. I'm willing to give up a variable scope to give this a shot. The final price makes it worth it. Just thought I'd pass this along.

scope:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/950843/..._vc=subv1129037

Rebate form(good until 31 Oct 12):

http://media.midwayusa.com/pdf/coupons/bushnell-elite-riflescope.pdf

Code for 20 off:

http://www.midwayusa.com/general.mvc/index/vat-nra

 

[OptedOut]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

To your basic question, you've been answered BUT you should know that both scopes you have mentioned ARE NOT going to be accurate in that their mil dots are not going to range properly is you actually use them.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSG Jano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To your basic question, you've been answered BUT you should know that both scopes you have mentioned ARE NOT going to be accurate in that their mil dots are not going to range properly is you actually use them. </div></div>


Okay, enlighten me, that's why I'm here (no sarcasm intended).

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

Mil-dots work just fine for ranging on a SFP scope...provided the magnification is set to whatever power the reticle is subtended for.

For the Weaver 3-10x, the reticle is subtended at 10x. Set it there and range away...

 

[OptedOut]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: #shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, enlighten me, that's why I'm here (no sarcasm intended). </div></div>

The etching of the reticles of both scopes you mention are simply not precise, no scopes in that price range are. I'm also referring to the calibration of the turret to the mil dots. So if you use the dots for ranging then crank you turrets it will let you down and if you zero (doesn't matter as to zero distance) and you use your dots/spaces for a hold over, you'll also be off.

The etching of reticles is accomplished by using acid. High quality scopes are very precise in the etching process which is one part of the cost making good scopes expensive. An off the wall example; you're "working" the sears of two triggers on one you only use a coarse rasping file, on the another sear you use first a very fine machinist's finishing file then a medium, fine and extra fine stone, then finish up with a fine polishing.

As to the turret calibration well that's easy...just think why less expensive scopes will not pass a "box" test.


Now if you're use is hunting and/or target practice plinking within 200-300 yards you are not going to discern the inaccuracy. But don't expect to try any competitions i.e. F Class etc. and be a high point scorer.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mil-dots work just fine for ranging on a SFP scope...provided the magnification is set to whatever power the reticle is subtended for.

For the Weaver 3-10x, the reticle is subtended at 10x. Set it there and range away... </div></div>

I have the Mueller APT currently and can range on 10X, I knew that going into it. I figured I'd have the same issue with the Weaver 3-10X since it was SFP and even though it's Mil Mil would I really gain anything making that switch.

In my post concerning the Bushnell Elite 10x40 Mil Mil I figured it would be a pretty simple scope to work with considering I always shoot 100yds plus with this rifle and the scope is always maxed out at 14x, although I have on occasion used it on 10X where the reticle is correct to see how I would like that power setting.

MSGJano's comment seemed a bit off and I wanted him to clarify what he meant.

Right now I'd like to try a scope that has a matched reticle and turret. I saw the Weaver and the Millet and wondered if jumping to one of them would be a better fit. In doing a bit more research on another forum a guy posted the sale on the Bushnell which made me look at that a bit harder. No one has ever complained about not being able to range correctly with the Bushnell and the scope has many favorable reviews. I was even surprised to see the Barret M99 uses this scope as part of its package, has to be a robust scope to stand up to that system.

 

[OptedOut]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

shooter,
I don't know where you got the info about the Barrett 99 but a Bushnell was never an option. I test for Barrett and have since Ronnie first started in the business. The 99 has two scope configurations as options, both Leupold.

Of the three scopes you have mentioned in reference to the M99 the M99 is made with a modified Weaver, M1913 Picatinny rail. Maybe that's your Bushnell guy's reference, I don't know.

Keep in mind your Mueller and the Bushnell you mention and the Millet are down right inexpensive (least I say cheap!) scopes, the Weaver Tactical based on their Grand Slam line are a little better but over priced for what they are.

I'd suggest you read up on scopes, the Chuck Hawks reviews are good and are easy to understand.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSG Jano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shooter,
I don't know where you got the info about the Barrett 99 but a Bushnell was never an option. I test for Barrett and have since Ronnie first started in the business. The 99 has two scope configurations as options, both Leupold.

Of the three scopes you have mentioned in reference to the M99 the M99 is made with a modified Weaver, M1913 Picatinny rail. Maybe that's your Bushnell guy's reference, I don't know.




Keep in mind your Mueller and the Bushnell you mention and the Millet are down right inexpensive (least I say cheap!) scopes, the Weaver Tactical based on their Grand Slam line are a little better but over priced for what they are.

I'd suggest you read up on scopes, the Chuck Hawks reviews are good and are easy to understand. </div></div>





I'd suggest you slow down:

http://www.barrett.net/pdfs/Model-99-Sales-Sheet.pdf

That PDF is straight from Barret's website. It clearly shows the M99 416-K1, the M99A1-K1 and the M99A1-K2 as having a Bushnell Elite 3200 10X scope as part of the configuration.

This seemed like a civil conversation but here you go with bad information and attitude. I never said the M99 had anything to do with Mueller or Weaver. You may want to inform Ronnie that his Sales Sheet is wrong based on what you said about working for him.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

Barrett M99 Kit
The Model 99 rifle is a robust and accurate single-shot rifle. At its heart is a one-piece Alcoa 7000 series aluminum alloy extrusion. A heat-treated steel M1913 optics rail is attached to the top of the extrusion by closely spaced high-strength structural fasteners. The match-toleranced barrel is hydraulically pressed and locked into the extrusion resulting in a rock-solid, unitized structure on which to mount a rifle telescope. Safety is unparalleled because the cartridge is surrounded by both high-grade gun barrel steel and the aluminum extrusion.

The bolt is machined from a single piece of proprietary grade steel. Its 15 lugs safely lock it into the machined barrel extension. The bolt's few moving parts are its extractor, ejector and firing pin assembly. It is reliable and easy to maintain.

The Model 99 is easily disassembled without tools by removing three quick-release assembly pins. These pins attach the trigger housing and bolt guide to the receiver assembly. The match-quality trigger design is proprietary and virtually maintenance free. The bipod is easily detached for benchrest shooting.

The Model 99, like all Barrett rifles, is continuing to be improved. A more effective muzzle brake is now standard. It is available in .416 Barrett and in several barrel options.

Other manufacturers may cut corners on quality and design. Barrett does not because even in a single shot, you get what you pay for.

Specifications

Caliber: .50 BMG
Capacity: 1 round (Single Shot)
Weight: 25 lbs
Action: Bolt Action
Barrel Length: 32" or 29”
Overall Length: 50" or 47”
Sights: None, Flat top rail for optics
Grips: Black Plastic
Material: Steel
Finish: Black
Made in USA

Model 99 .50 BMG Barrett Rifle Kit: 32” barrel, <span style="color: #FF0000">Bushnell Elite 3200 10x scope</span>, ZERO-GAP® Ultra High rings, M1913 optics rail, Pelican case, detachable adjustable bipod, cleaning kit and owner’s manual.

Details

SKU BFMM99A1KIT
Quantity in stock Call for Availability: 206-417-1625
Shipping Weight 80.00 lbs
Price: $4199.99

Options

 

[OptedOut]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

No insult intended, and I stand corrected, I missed some things being in Afghanistan for the last 9 months.

I did just call out to the Outpost Armory (their store outside Murfreesboro up the road from me) and they knew nothing of a Bushnell option as a package and do not sell one there and that it is not one of the normal configurations;
http://www.barrett.net/firearms/model99
with the Leupold Scope and BORS.

They did think it might have been through a supplier, authorized dealer. In your last post at the bottom there is a 206 area code phone number, Barrett's numbers are all in Tennessee 615, where did that info come from so I can ask Barrett more about it tomorrow as their main offices are closed now. I will find out and report back.

Aside from all that i hope you are not missing the point I was trying to get across to you about reticle and turret discrepancies in inexpensive scopes.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSG Jano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No insult intended, and I stand corrected, I missed some things being in Afghanistan for the last 9 months.

I did just call out to the Outpost Armory (their store outside Murfreesboro up the road from me) and they knew nothing of a Bushnell option as a package and do not sell one there and that it is not one of the normal configurations;
http://www.barrett.net/firearms/model99
with the Leupold Scope and BORS.

They did think it might have been through a supplier, authorized dealer. In your last post at the bottom there is a 206 area code phone number, Barrett's numbers are all in Tennessee 615, where did that info come from so I can ask Barrett more about it tomorrow as their main offices are closed now. I will find out and report back.

Aside from all that i hope you are not missing the point I was trying to get across to you about reticle and turret discrepancies in inexpensive scopes. </div></div>


I grabbed the the one with a 206 area code from a supplier, but the pdf came direct from Barret's website,click the url then look under downloads and then click sales sheet.

http://www.barrett.net/firearms/model99


I have a co-worker that owns a M99, he bought it without a scope so I can see if he recalls what options were available.

Seeing the Elite as part of the configuration on that sales sheet made me take the scope seriously figuring if Barret uses it(even if an entry level scope), that says something.I actually found the original info on Bushnell from Sniper Central and had to see if it was true.Seeing it from their site confirmed it for me. I've also emailed Barret just now asking if the Bushnell was really still an option. I'll post what they say.

I got your point about reticle and turret discrepancies, no problem there.

Be safe, I served as well. To give an idea how long ago, I carried an A1.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

Talked with my co-worker this morning, his Barret was offered with a SWAROVSKI scope when he bought his, but like I stated, he has yet to put any glass on it, for him, the rifle is more of a collector's piece. His dad's has the Leupold on his.

It seems if you get the "kit" version you'll get a Bushnell scope, the Leupold is also offered as an option/upgrade listening to the guys on the Barret forum and looking at the price list.

 

[OptedOut]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

shooter and all interested,
I just got off the phone with Barrett. I had called this AM 615-896-2938 and asked for Laura Goetsch head of sales but was told she is now gone.

Paraphrased here is what I was told;
'About 2 years ago Barrett did co-op with a authorized dealer a package combination with a Bushnell scope and other items and Barrett provided the M99's and the dealer put the package together and Barrett helped in the marketing for the dealer. Barrett's only configurations with scopes are with Leupold Mark 4s with or without their BORS.'

When I inquired about the "sales sheet download" the reply was "Yea, that was part of the co-opting and should not be on the website. If you look at the "price list" download you will see the only Barrett options and configurations."

I asked if the "Bushnell" package is still available, the answer was 'if the dealer still has any, which I don't know'.

When you get your email response let me/us know if it states anything different. And good luck with you new scope search, there are so many options nowadays.

 

[ole'soldier]

Re: SFP Mil Mil Question

That seemed to be the same type of response on the Barret forums. Some guys had the Bushnell when they bought the rifle as a kit, others had either went with no optics or Leupold.

I haven't received an email yet, I used their contact form from the website. I'll update when I get the response.