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Range Report Shitty range day

stello1001

Professional Newb
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 20, 2017
    4,120
    2,902
    Corpus Christi TX
    Went out today to try my new Berger 140 hybrids. These are the factory loads Berger offers. Did a 3 shot group at 100 just to get an idea what they print like on paper. Just a hair over an inch. Took these suckers out to distance, tried 450Y and got a first round hit using my drop chart from a different load. Plate is a 12x12 square and I hit just slightly low. Made an adjustment and then everything else hit quite decent with the exception of one. One of them hit a bit low and kinda stacked with my first low round. I have no clue why that one singled out, flier maybe???

    I went out to 700Y and I could not get a damn hit even if my life depended on it. If I missed left, I'd offset and hold right. Then I would miss right to where my POA & POI were almost the same. Very inconsistent stuff like this kept happening. I also had a hard time spotting some of my misses due to recoil. I already have an APA lil bastard, just wanting hunting season to be done so I can send her in to get threaded.

    I decided to back down to 600Y. Somehow, this distance was stupid easy. I had almost all hits with the occasional miss that I think could have been fliers. Backed up to 700Y again, this time prone. Same damn story, very inconsistent misses. The only difference now, I was able to spot much better from the prone position and had better recoil control. Then I remembered I had a fresh new lot of Spark Munitions 140 ELDM and tried those while still prone from 700Y. I did not have a single hit but this load seemed much more consistent. I somehow always missed just behind the target. I have no idea how the splash was literally just behind the plate but at least I was way way closer and more consistent.

    Last time I was out at 700Y I was extremely successful. It was too easy that it was stupidly boring. That time I even decided to try 1000 because of my positive engagements at 700.

    I'm not one to be superstitious at all, but driving back home I realized it is Friday the 13th. Bad luck maybe??? Did I also mention that all my factory berger ammo shower pressure signs. Really cratered primers, swipes, many pierced primers. WTF is going on, I've had really shitty luck lately.

    What I do know, for sure my scope was holding me back. I've been having trouble with it and getting a very clear sight picture is difficult. I had a hard time seeing hits on target and sometimes even a hard time seeing the target itself. Although this didn't stop me last time and I did pretty good last time.

    I definitely need a spotter or a brake ASAP. Although again, this did not hinder me at all last time.

    I noticed I need to work on being more smooth on my trigger pull and let the shot break slowly. When I was extra careful with this, I seemed to do better.

    Not sure I can recall other key points that are important. But overall, it doesn't hurt to focus on my fundamentals and perhaps I might want to do that next time at shorter ranges.

    Okay, rant over. I would gladly take any advice or tips so feel free to suggest anything. Although I'm not particularly asking for it, mostly just ranting lol.


    Plate is 12x12
    yellow area is 7x7 on the outside
    Square on center of plate is 4x4
    circle on center is unknown size, just random...

    These are @ 450
    20191213_161026.jpg
    20191213_161028.jpg


    This is @600
    IDK what's up with those two shots on the left, fliers maybe???
    20191213_173103.jpg
     
    Last edited:
    Sounds like a mixture of good and bad results.

    Did you chrono any of the Berger ammo?

    Give Berger ammo a call or write an email to customer service.
     
    Sounds like a mixture of good and bad results.

    Did you chrono any of the Berger ammo?

    Give Berger ammo a call or write an email to customer service.


    I did not chrono. My equipment is pretty limited and I don't have anything to find out MV as I still consider myself rather new to all this precision rifle stuff and LR.

    I'm really trying to learn though, and my results from today are only very confusing to me. Not sure what to think.

    I suppose I can email Berger with the lot number and see if that lot tested hot for them.
     
    What caliber and load are you using, could the bullet be transonic at 700?

    Judging by my results, it almost seems as such. However, this is a 6.5 CM shooting 140 grain hybrids. Software listed my MV as something just about north of 2800, I'll double check in a bit. This would put me transonic way past 700. And I already got very consistent hits about two weeks ago with boring regularity at 700 with a different load.

    **EDIT**

    I trued at 450 and got a MV of 2815. I then used that MV to figure out my drops, this gave me 3.5mils to 600. However, based upon actual results and my DOPE, it was really 3.6mils so my MV could be something just below 2815.
     
    I think your mind was messin with you and you flubbed a bit.
    What scope you using that you can’t get a good sight picture?
    You might want to work of getting the rifle to fit you better.
    If your not getting an immediate and awesome sight the instant you get on the rifle all comfy like ya gotta find out why
     
    On my 24" the factory Berger 140's were shooting slower then advertised for me, around 1770ish on average. But they were very consistent, so data is data.
     
    I think your mind was messin with you and you flubbed a bit.
    What scope you using that you can’t get a good sight picture?
    You might want to work of getting the rifle to fit you better.
    If your not getting an immediate and awesome sight the instant you get on the rifle all comfy like ya gotta find out why


    I don't think you're wrong in what you're saying. I know connecting with more experienced shooters and having a range buddy might help with them pointing out my flaws. Shooting alone isn't the best, and when one has minimal experience shooting LR like I do, it makes learning a lot tougher. To say that I left very disappointed and frustrated is an understatement.

    However, I think my rifle might be set up properly. The reason why I'm having trouble with my scope, Minox ZP5 3-15 is because I seem to have gotten a lemon. It's been very difficult to have a positive viewing experience with it. I will say though, comb height between bench & prone does seem to vary slightly so a small adjustment is necessary when transitioning positions. At least from my experience, I noticed that.
     
    I don't think you're wrong in what you're saying. I know connecting with more experienced shooters and having a range buddy might help with them pointing out my flaws. Shooting alone isn't the best, and when one has minimal experience shooting LR like I do, it makes learning a lot tougher. To say that I left very disappointed and frustrated is an understatement.

    However, I think my rifle might be set up properly. The reason why I'm having trouble with my scope, Minox ZP5 3-15 is because I seem to have gotten a lemon. It's been very difficult to have a positive viewing experience with it. I will say though, comb height between bench & prone does seem to vary slightly so a small adjustment is necessary when transitioning positions. At least from my experience, I noticed that.
    When I first started getting into the long range game I had plenty of WTF moments.
    It’s a learning experience.

    If your fighting the rifle in any way things will be wonky.

    with some experimentation you should find a nice compromise between bench and prone.
    I shoot more prone so I favor that more in the setup.

    don’t be afraid of playing around with it looking for a nice happy place.

    At a bench or prone I pretty much just drop my head down on the stock and immediately have a nice view and and totally relaxed and comfy.
    If I don’t get that I find out why.
     
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    When I first started getting into the long range game I had plenty of WTF moments.
    It’s a learning experience.

    If your fighting the rifle in any way things will be wonky.

    with some experimentation you should find a nice compromise between bench and prone.
    I shoot more prone so I favor that more in the setup.

    don’t be afraid of playing around with it looking for a nice happy place.

    At a bench or prone I pretty much just drop my head down on the stock and immediately have a nice view and and totally relaxed and comfy.
    If I don’t get that I find out why.

    I spend countless hours hunting from a deer blind so I have my comb height set up for that. From the blind, I get a perfect cheek weld. I adjusted it to where I'm not applying any pressure, my cheek just barely makes contact and that puts me pretty center. I figured, if I have to apply some pressure on my cheek in order to be centered behind my eyepiece, it might be impossible to always apply the same exact pressure, thus my position will not be repeatable with consistency. I hope this is the right approach. I'll play with the comb height to see if I can find something better next time I'm prone though.

    I felt very frustrated, enough to the point where I have no desire to go back anytime soon and do this again. I know this is probably temporary though, but if I do head out soon, I'll try to work on proper form, and perhaps perfecting/shrinking my groups at shorter range. Maybe work on fundamentals at paper @100 and steel @450? Idk yet but that seems to be a more logical approach for me at the moment.
    Thoughts???
     
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    I tried the berger ammo in 6mm and I was not impressed. They did not shoot well in my rifle.
     
    Lots of variables in the OP description.
    Definitely some operator error, very likely some ammo/rifle inconsistency.
    A day like that sucks, I think we have all had one ( or 10) days like that.

    Go over the rifle/scope/mounts/bases carefully. Make sure everything is torqued properly.
    Try a few different types of ammo, Fgmm is often considered the benchmark for match ammo, try it if possible.

    spend some time with your rifle and get it set up so that it is comfortable to shoot for you. Often a scope adjustment or adding a stock pack can make a big difference.
     
    I decided to back down to 600Y. Somehow, this distance was stupid easy. I had almost all hits with the occasional miss that I think could have been fliers. Backed up to 700Y again, this time prone. Same damn story, very inconsistent misses. The only difference now, I was able to spot much better from the prone position and had better recoil control. Then I remembered I had a fresh new lot of Spark Munitions 140 ELDM and tried those while still prone from 700Y. I did not have a single hit but this load seemed much more consistent. I somehow always missed just behind the target. I have no idea how the splash was literally just behind the plate but at least I was way way closer and more consistent.

    Last time I was out at 700Y I was extremely successful. It was too easy that it was stupidly boring. That time I even decided to try 1000 because of my positive engagements at 700.

    I'm not one to be superstitious at all, but driving back home I realized it is Friday the 13th. Bad luck maybe??? Did I also mention that all my factory berger ammo shower pressure signs. Really cratered primers, swipes, many pierced primers. WTF is going on, I've had really shitty luck lately.

    What I do know, for sure my scope was holding me back. I've been having trouble with it and getting a very clear sight picture is difficult. I had a hard time seeing hits on target and sometimes even a hard time seeing the target itself. Although this didn't stop me last time and I did pretty good last time.



    Okay, rant over. I would gladly take any advice or tips so feel free to suggest anything. Although I'm not particularly asking for it, mostly just ranting lol.




    These are @ 450
    View attachment 7201890View attachment 7201891

    This is @600
    IDK what's up with those two shots on the left, fliers maybe???
    View attachment 7201892
    First off, you need to get your scope issues ironed out. If you are shooting for precision, it becomes imperative that seeing is a must. Other than older Leupold hunting scopes, which I never shot far with, all my optics today in certain conditions has me asking myself why do I own them.
    2nd, you have made some big misconceptions here, saying your Sparks ammo was more consistent, when you couldn't hit the plate with it, dust 80 yards behind a target means jack shit.
    3rd, if the Berger ammo was exhibiting pressure signs, just how can it be consistent? Smart money says Berger is not selling hot ammo, whatever went on yesterday may just means that the ammo was too hot in your rifle that day. I'd be checking things out, cleaning my bore, checking for a carbon ring, etc....

    There may be some simple explanations too as why the Berger did not shoot well, if your rifle shoots 140 eld's decent, it must be throated long, the hybrid is jumping a good distance if so. Hybrids are jump tolerant, but they do not work across the board in every situation.
    Myself, going off your targets, you seem to be concerned with horizontal spread, well, conditions change, I have never been able to hold the same point of aim for a whole range session,, wind is always shifting. I would be way more tuned in on the vertical aspect of the ammo, it was failing at 450, if you were shooting somewhat decent. What makes you think you can take it further and succeed?

    You need to punt here, try get the Berger ammo stable in your rifle if you can, if you do, find a bluebird day and go back out, shoot a couple groups at 450. If it is shooting 1 moa at 450, common sense says it is not going to improve the farther out you go with it, find a diff offering. Until you get the brake installed, by all means find a spotter to accompany you, or huge steel. Shooting into the abyss is a waste of time, energy, and money.
    When I got into LR shooting, first rifle was a Cooper Pheonix model 21, 6.5x284, gun was accurate, load was damn accurate, but I was shooting it free recoil off a front rest. I did great with freshly painted steel if I was hitting, but until I put a brake on it, spotting was frustrating. You cannot learn if you don't see what is going on.
     
    I spend countless hours hunting from a deer blind so I have my comb height set up for that. From the blind, I get a perfect cheek weld. I adjusted it to where I'm not applying any pressure, my cheek just barely makes contact and that puts me pretty center. I figured, if I have to apply some pressure on my cheek in order to be centered behind my eyepiece, it might be impossible to always apply the same exact pressure, thus my position will not be repeatable with consistency. I hope this is the right approach. I'll play with the comb height to see if I can find something better next time I'm prone though.

    I felt very frustrated, enough to the point where I have no desire to go back anytime soon and do this again. I know this is probably temporary though, but if I do head out soon, I'll try to work on proper form, and perhaps perfecting/shrinking my groups at shorter range. Maybe work on fundamentals at paper @100 and steel @450? Idk yet but that seems to be a more logical approach for me at the moment.
    Thoughts???

    stello,,,I had many a day like that before I got comfortable at this game and I still learn something on every outing.
    Fight through the pain!
    It’s totally worth it!

    A lot of new shootethink 100 yard work is important.
    I saw meh to that.
    You won’t learn wind or confidence at distance with that.

    my steps for success
    Get the rifle to fit you.
    I lay my head on the stock like it’s a big titty, not smushing it but I’m in there.
    Get a handle on on natural point of aim.
    Get a decent load, sub moa and Sd at or below 10.
    Get good dope, I ignored that to my detriment, now anytime I have different conditions I take notes
    Get as comfy as possible
    Get relaxed.
    both of those work with NPA.

    I’d also consider the online training on this site.
    I was on that on the first SH and it was totally worth it.
     
    once I traveled like a hour to get to a range , carried all my stuff to the line, got my targets set up, went to load my rifle and discovered I had the wrong ammo. Never fired a shot. That was a shitty range day.

    I also was out testing ammo one time , different loads, seating depths and everything. When i got home pulled my rifle out of the case felt something loose, ended up being the top rail where the scope mounts was pretty loose. All that testing time reloading was pretty much useless. That ended up being a shitty range day.
     
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    I felt very frustrated, enough to the point where I have no desire to go back anytime soon and do this again. I know this is probably temporary though, but if I do head out soon, I'll try to work on proper form, and perhaps perfecting/shrinking my groups at shorter range. Maybe work on fundamentals at paper @100 and steel @450? Idk yet but that seems to be a more logical approach for me at the moment.
    Thoughts???

    Bingo. I'll just say I don't think it's the ammo. I don't think I saw which rifle you have. And, some rifles just don't like some ammo. But, it also sounds like you're "all over the place" when it comes to fundamentals and dialing in your technique and getting to know your gear.

    My RPR has performed quite well with any of the premium factory ammo. Recently, I started shooting the new Berger Match Grade cartridges (140 Berger Target Hybrid). I've had very good results with it. I shot it at 600 yards this weekend.
     
    Sorry to say but it isn’t the ammo

    I don’t reload and the Berger ammo (130 and 140) in my AI sticks do nothing but put a smile on my face. SD values are single digit.

    3DF2AB03-47D4-44E0-9189-C7EEED63B987.jpeg
     
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    When I was starting out it took me a long time to learn to read wind. Terrestrial effects on wind can be a good study and really can effect dope out past 500 meters. Don't discount a tail wind. A breeze pushing that bullet can make things very unpredictable. Things seem great until a certain distance, and then your dope just makes no sense.
     
    I'm going to assume I have a carbon ring. Will be placing an order for a bore scope very soon. I cleaned and brushed extensively using a drill in what I think felt like the throat area.

    For those suggesting i should learn to read the wind, i agree 100% on that. However, if you are assuming that on that particular day it was the wind kicking my ass, i dont believe so. There was literally no wind that day, which is why I decided to try out the new ammo. The flags by the cemetery I drive by to get to my hunting lease were literally dead, not a single movement. So I don't think it was the wind playing with me.

    Berger is claiming that it is possible I may have a very long throat and that could be the reason. I don't see how jumping the bullet too much is going to cause significant pressure spikes, enough to be piercing primers. Can anybody point me in the right direction as to how to get an accurate measurement of my throat? They have requested I check that out first before we continue drawing any sort of conclusions...

    Thanks to all who have contributed and given me some insight. You guys have been tremendous help!
     


    This is a great video and seems to work well. However, one reason why I'm shooting factory loaded ammo is because I do not reload nor do I have reloading equipment. Would there be a different way that does not require me trying different seating depths? Perhaps some sort of measuring tool?
     
    This is a great video and seems to work well. However, one reason why I'm shooting factory loaded ammo is because I do not reload nor do I have reloading equipment. Would there be a different way that does not require me trying different seating depths? Perhaps some sort of measuring tool?
    No, you cannot do reloading things without reloading things.
     
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    This is a great video and seems to work well. However, one reason why I'm shooting factory loaded ammo is because I do not reload nor do I have reloading equipment. Would there be a different way that does not require me trying different seating depths? Perhaps some sort of measuring tool?
    Yeah but those measuring tools are reloading equipment...

    Image result for hornady length tool


    You would need this OAL tool and then some calipers with comparators to communicate your info to berger and then a bare hybrid bullet to use for the test so... you really do need reloading equipment to take reloading measurements.
     
    Damn it!!!

    I'm shooting factory ammo through a factory rifle. This stuff shouldn't have to be so complicated. All I'm trying to do is learn how to shoot long distance so that's why I buy quality ammo. People are always claiming to shoot tiny bugholes without reloading so i would think i shouldn't have to learn how to reload or purchase equipment just to find my throat length that berger is requesting.

    Oh well... Guess I'll be getting rid of all my factory Berger ammo if it doesn't shoot after I try it out next outing. I'm hoping it was just a carbon ring and that I got most of it out. If not, it'll go straight to the PX lol.
     
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    I would think factory ammo would fit SAAMI chambers. But I think Berger ammunition sometimes stretches the Overall Length dimension.
     
    Yeah but those measuring tools are reloading equipment...

    Image result for hornady length tool


    You would need this OAL tool and then some calipers with comparators to communicate your info to berger and then a bare hybrid bullet to use for the test so... you really do need reloading equipment to take reloading measurements.

    Yeah... but you don't need ALL the equipment. I don't reload. But, I have a OAL gauge and digital caliper... Needed to go through the custom ammo process with Copper Creek. In other words, I delegated the loading. But, I needed to take the measurements. I got a modified case and bullet from Copper Creek. Cost a whopping $12, I think. The Hornady gauge and digital calipers were another $50-ish?? No big deal. But, I didn't need a loading press, powder gauge, etc, etc.

    Even though I don't reload, I also own a chrono (Magnetospeed V3).
     
    Last edited:
    Damn it!!!

    I'm shooting factory ammo through a factory rifle. This stuff shouldn't have to be so complicated. All I'm trying to do is learn how to shoot long distance so that's why I buy quality ammo. People are always claiming to shoot tiny bugholes without reloading so i would think i shouldn't have to learn how to reload or purchase equipment just to find my throat length that berger is requesting.

    Oh well... Guess I'll be getting rid of all my factory Berger ammo if it doesn't shoot after I try it out next outing. I'm hoping it was just a carbon ring and that I got most of it out. If not, it'll go straight to the PX lol.

    You don't have to reload to have fun making small groups. Today's factory match ammo is pretty damned good.

    But, yeah... if you want to relay the info to the manufacturer about your particular rifle, you'll need a MINIMAL amount of gear. Less than $100 total. And, you'll LEARN something, too. :)

    I don't load my own, and I do quite well with factory ammo. And, I'm still somewhat of a novice. :)
    hornady black 100 yards.jpg


    300 yards:
    Target-3-Group-1.jpg


    200 yards:
    Great-group-1.jpg
     
    Last edited:
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    Damn it!!!

    I'm shooting factory ammo through a factory rifle. This stuff shouldn't have to be so complicated. All I'm trying to do is learn how to shoot long distance so that's why I buy quality ammo. People are always claiming to shoot tiny bugholes without reloading so i would think i shouldn't have to learn how to reload or purchase equipment just to find my throat length that berger is requesting.

    Oh well... Guess I'll be getting rid of all my factory Berger ammo if it doesn't shoot after I try it out next outing. I'm hoping it was just a carbon ring and that I got most of it out. If not, it'll go straight to the PX lol.

    Here is one of my first targets with the Berger factory Match Target Hybrid 140-gr ammo @100 yards. All 5-shot groups.

    Berger-Target-2.jpg
     
    If you want to measure your lands.... You can either order a modified case from Copper Creek... or send them your own once-fired case (even better) to have it drilled and tapped.

    You can also order a single bullet to use in the modified case:
    (I couldn't find a link, but ask them to sell you a single bullet - Berger Hybrid 140-gr.) They sell them as an add-on to their load development packs. But, I bet they'd sell you one without a load development pack, if you buy the other stuff from them.

    Calipers:

    Here's the Hornady OAL gauge:

    Give them a call and just give them the list of what you need. :)
     
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    If you want to measure your lands.... You can either order a modified case from Copper Creek... or send them your own once-fired case (even better) to have it drilled and tapped.

    You can also order a single bullet to use in the modified case:
    (I couldn't find a link, but ask them to sell you a single bullet - Berger Hybrid 140-gr.) They sell them as an add-on to their load development packs. But, I bet they'd sell you one without a load development pack, if you buy the other stuff from them.

    Calipers:

    Here's the Hornady OAL gauge:

    Give them a call and just give them the list of what you need. :)


    This is perfect...
    I tried looking for the OAL gauge tool from a few posts above but did not seem to find it. I found others that looked similar but not exact. And even if I did find it, I still didn't know how to look for whatever piece of equipment it is that I need to add neck tension and adjust seating depth like it is done in that vid posted above.

    I'm sure now if I contact copper creek, they may possibly have all that I'm looking for.
     
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    I am sorry you had a hard time with the bullets but even a bad day at the range trumps most good days at work . first try failures just needs to be met with a stronger will to succeed . You can do it (y)(y)
     
    Last edited:
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    Just a lil update, first pic is @450 from a week or so ago.

    Shot a 5 round group, did a correction of 2/10s up and sent 5 more.

    10 total on plate...

    IMG_20191230_184901_312.jpg


    And today I tried 700 yards.

    Sent one round and got an impact, made a small correction and asked a buddy if he wanted to try. He declined, I got back down in the prone position, and sent 3 more. Top left is the one that does not belong to the group.

    20200104_171704.jpg


    For the record, this is all spark loaded 140 ELDMs. The factory Berger stuff shot like crap. I'm selling the remaining if anybody is looking for some.
     
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    Every barrel has different harmonics, and some ammo works better in different guns. For a new rifle that's why I'll generally buy a box of my top 3 ammo manufacturers and see which one my rifle likes better. And the 135/140 Berger's work just fine in my rifle.... As well as on antelope ?
     
    once I traveled like a hour to get to a range , carried all my stuff to the line, got my targets set up, went to load my rifle and discovered I had the wrong ammo. Never fired a shot. That was a shitty range day.

    I also was out testing ammo one time , different loads, seating depths and everything. When i got home pulled my rifle out of the case felt something loose, ended up being the top rail where the scope mounts was pretty loose. All that testing time reloading was pretty much useless. That ended up being a shitty range day.
    I was helping my friend true his Nosler m48 300wm. He burned 50 rounds. Started at 200 bore sighted and on paper, 8" shoot n see. Okay, good. Walked back every 100 yards and shot another group. He was packing them together but the shift was odd. As he fired more shots it would walk lines up the target. Required vertical correction was too overlapped to make sense. 400 and 600 were the same. 300 and 500 were the same. He said f this and handed it to me with a closed bolt and empty case in the chamber. I knew it, and as I popped it back with me thumb to catch the case I heard a odd clack sound but also felt off. I gripped the scope and shook it. Sure shit, the base was loose as a goose. Time to start over.
     
    If you want to measure your lands.... You can either order a modified case from Copper Creek... or send them your own once-fired case (even better) to have it drilled and tapped.

    You can also order a single bullet to use in the modified case:
    (I couldn't find a link, but ask them to sell you a single bullet - Berger Hybrid 140-gr.) They sell them as an add-on to their load development packs. But, I bet they'd sell you one without a load development pack, if you buy the other stuff from them.

    Calipers:

    Here's the Hornady OAL gauge:

    Give them a call and just give them the list of what you need. :)
    Depending whos tool you use, I use Hornady, the drill and tap to modify a fired case is available from mcmaster-carr or amazon. I have done this for 2 rifles. I use the neck sizer die to bring it down to nominal ID so the bullet will slip nicely. Also trim chamfer and turn the necks and polish the mouth, which might serve little purpose in this application. Then I put it in the rubber jaws, stepping up to the correct hole size using a series of bits and a press. Eventually taping it. It is not difficult and will get you what you need faster. Mcmaster is usually next day delivery.