I use it with 110 grain Hornady Spire Points . I tested charges from 20-25 grains with 25 being the best . I was shooting at 100 yards with all 5 shot groups less than 1 MOA with 25 grains at a little over .5 " . I also tried 12 -14 grains but can't find in my notes how well they did . They must have been OK or I would not have noted them . I do remember they made my son smile when he felt how mild they were . 12 grains should be sub with the 110s ,much more is super I believe .