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Shooting movers (humbled) why?

T

Trevor

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 29, 2007
212
21
North of You
Competed in a practice match this past weekend and thought I had done my home work calculating movers reviewed this link http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=724020 numerous times. Shot deliberates at 400 and 500 making good wind calls at those distances then onto movers at 400. I might as well have then throwing rocks with my success rate so what happened.

30 inch target

This is how I went about calculating hold.
400 yards 12 mph wind put 4min
walking speed based on 3mph
As referenced in the link I calculated hold and then used the simpler .6 per mph or 1.8 mil or 6.75 moa lead.
Even with the 3mph increase/reduction in calculated wind speed that is a little over 1 min (4 inches), my 1.8 mil lead should have worked (NO???) it wasn’t until I reduced the lead with and increased against the wind that I was more consistant.

Where did I go wrong?

Scope was fixed 10x with true mil reticle
308 168grs @2700fps

p.s.

Lindy is right the movers at 100 look like they are running compared to 400.


Thanks
Trevor
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Track, Trap or swing through?

It might not be the calculations as much as something you might be doing wrong in technique such as stopping or hesitating the gun.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Shooting movers is about getting a technique that works for you, and then practicing it over and over. The closer you are, the more tracking works. Some people are great with ambush, but ultimately you need to find one that you can make work.
Shooting at 700 yards at Rifles Only in a 20-25 MPH wind is fun when you get your mil holds down. But when you are shooting at 25 yards, movers suck.
They are hard, and not fun.
Lindy boiled it all down with...Believe the bullet.
Simplify what your doing, and apply or decrease the lead on the target. The farther you are, the longer flight time, etc.
Shooting steel is very helpful here as you get instant feedback.
Rifles Only covers this indepth at their training. I would highly recommend it.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

I been to RO 4 times, 3 matches, 1 class. Shooting movers at 100 still sucks!!! lol
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

onethousand1 4 sillables 1 second
123456789012 devide it up

looking into your scope at the mover how far does it move in 1/4 sec@100y half a mil or so ? then fire 1/2 mil before the target gets to center

time of flight @100y about 1/4 sec
1 sec to 400y
1.3 to 500

did you see the hit?
if you did you were likely behind the target
if not you were just ahead and target covered the strike

just try to notice how long it takes to get there
target ----> wind <-
lead ---pull
or
target ----> wind -->
lead ------pull

like anything practice lots
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">onethousand1 4 sillables 1 second
123456789012 devide it up

looking into your scope at the mover how far does it move in 1/4 sec@100y half a mil or so ? then fire 1/2 mil before the target gets to center

time of flight @100y about 1/4 sec
1 sec to 400y
1.3 to 500

did you see the hit?
if you did you were likely behind the target
if not you were just ahead and target covered the strike

just try to notice how long it takes to get there
target ----> wind <-
lead ---pull
or
target ----> wind -->
lead ------pull

like anything practice lots </div></div>

I need to smoke something, then maybe I can figure that one out.

If you're round is taking 1.3 to 500 you could probably add a little powder to that load......
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

I was trapping it felt more comfortable then tracking.

100 had a 4 sec exposure saw 1 ½ targets and needed to verify which was mine
400 had a generous 6 sec exposure LOL huge difference as I could see 3 targets start to finish even with a 40mm obj.

Simple answer I guess is more time behind the rifle.

I won’t be able to try again until next month.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

First time I was involved in shooting 'movers' was in Sniper School. I had no training but for some reason I did ok. One of the AMU instructors commented, saying I must have been a Skeet shooter. Actually I was, at the time I was heavy into skeet shooting. It seemed natural back then, not so much any more because I dont shoot much shootgun.

I know shootguns and rifles are differant, I believe its all about follow through. When I was teaching sniper schools for the NG I figured rifle shooters are too ridged. I tried taking some students to the skeet range but that was a disaster. So I bought one of Daisy's Running Boor Air Gun Targets, That helped a lot.

I dont know if daisy makes them anymore, but If I remember right they were relatively cheap.

I think if one could find on of those Air Gun running boor targets they could learn a lot and have a lot of fun doing it.

I'm out of the game now, I doubt I could hit a slow moving plow nag.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Shooting movers is a difficult skill to master and there are many factors involved:
-How the shooter percieves the reticle.
-The consistency of the moving target. (This will play a much more significant role at longer ranges.)
-How the shooter applies trigger control.
-Whether the shooter is using tracking or ambush methods of engagement.
-How the wind call is applied to the optic.

If the shooter has little experience with interrupted trigger control, shooting movers for the first time can be a difficult task. I've seen as much as a quarter of a mil difference between shooters engaging a moving target at given range. Both hit the target, but both apply trigger control differently.

My suggestion is to start with a base-line of a mil lead for each range your going to engage movers at. Apply the wind call to your optic and if you need to adjust it for varying conditions ONLY do so by adjusting your turrets. Start off by using the ambush method and try your base-line mil leads. (Some shooters will even see a difference in mil leads between left to right and right to left movers.) Be painfully honest with yourself when you make your shot calls and keep accurate data. Keep at it, and it really helps to have an observer to pick up that vapor trail. (It'll save you LOTS of ammo...)

I've taught students how to shoot movers for almost 4 years from as close as 100 yards to as far as 800 and I've done it in combat. Don't get wrapped up in the numbers and math.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

the right and left difference is likely that most elec. motors are timed for their normal rotation CW or CCW when reversing they are 10 to 20 % slower going the other way
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

The problem with people and movers has more to do with the shooter than the formula. Any of that math is usually correct, however it doesn't account for the Shooter's Lock Time, the point in which you make the decision to fire to the time the bullet actually leaves the bore. The formulas all start at the end of the muzzle, and not inside the shooter's brain. This is why different people have different leads to hit the same target... aside from fundamental differences in shooting techniques.

the mover we use is roughly 9X15 and shot out to 500 yards for most. The lead is essentially the same from 100 to 500 yards, however the shooter has to know and understand how they individually address the problem of a moving target.

To often we see people getting wrapped up in the numbers and not "believing the bullet" as Lindy put it... the bullet has the final word. Drive the rifle correctly and see the results of your shot downrange -- correct for the shot and move on.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the right and left difference is likely that most elec. motors are timed for their normal rotation CW or CCW when reversing they are 10 to 20 % slower going the other way </div></div>

Never had the beneift of shooting on an automated range, I've always run movers with manpower.

Differences between right and left running targets have always been determined by how the shooter views the targets and the reticle.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Woj8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Differences between right and left running targets have always been determined by how the shooter views the targets and the reticle.</div></div>For me it's more about the wind, and whether I force the bad habit of slapping the trigger.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

I have timed the moving target system at Rifles Only, and it runs at the same speed in either direction - in the absence of the wind. The wind does have a small effect on the mover speed, but not nearly so much as the effect of the wind on the bullet once you get to 400 yards and beyond.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Thanks for the information gentleman.

I will try and implement the techniques brought up here and document what works and what doesn't

Trevor
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sometimes i quote myself </div></div>

Sometimes he quotes himself
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Another trick I learned for older NG shooters. (.But shouldnt be used for new shooters)

Cut out one of the targets out of a 50 ft, NRA or ISU small bore target. Tape it to a playing card. Then beg barrow or steal your kids electric train. Put the car on a stick stuck to the model train cars, set the train up about fifty feet away, and fire up your 22s.

But again, I'd recommend Skeet Shooting. The Actor, Robert Stack, spent his military (WWII) career teaching skeet shooting to anti aircraft gunners.

The problem with math, is by the time you get finished with your slide rule, the target left the country.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

We now have a motor driven moving target at NCW gun club. We used it at the Findlay cup last month at 90 yards, 280 yards and 440 yards.
It has a "car" that you can put different sized steel plates on and the DC motor and control box can be set up with a verity of speeds. We used a 6"x10" target at 3 mph. Hitting it at 90 yards was a breeze, 280 and 440, not so much.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim the Plumber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We now have a motor driven moving target at NCW gun club. We used it at the Findlay cup last month at 90 yards, 280 yards and 440 yards.
It has a "car" that you can put different sized steel plates on and the DC motor and control box can be set up with a verity of speeds. We used a 6"x10" target at 3 mph. Hitting it at 90 yards was a breeze, 280 and 440, not so much. </div></div>

Jim,

Apologize for the detour but I'd love to see pics of that and get a primer on the components and how it was constructed. PM or email me so we can be polite and not disrupt the topic here. Very interested in constructing such a system.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Shot a match this month with movers at 300, 500, and 600. 300 yd was off hand, 500 was using a rest of your choice and a "tall grass" where bore had to be 28" above ground, and any rest at 600. Man powered movers that were between 2 and 3 mph, shot in both right to left and left to right.
Had a pretty good wind, 8 to 15 mph and was full value to 60%. At 600 going to the right you had to add lead and wind going back left they pretty much canceled each other out, maybe 1/2 moa difference. Challenging conditions with more misses than usual for this bunch of good shooters. Think most of the misses can be attributed to missed wind calls.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Start with a Base Lead..We shoot 9" wide movers 40" tall at 100,200,300, and 400m Your lead at 100 should be between .5 to .75 on a 4mph mover. .75 to 1 on a 200 1 to 1.25 and so on out to 400m. If your mover is not moving left to right but left to right on the slant you need to adjust your hold. We do not dial on any wind. But i dont want to get on the subject. Everyone has a way to do it. Dialing just does not work for us at our school..This is based on M118LR 7.62.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Start with a Base Lead.</div></div>

Good idea - however, you didn't give the units of the lead your are recommending.

Try this: Use a lead of 0.6 mils per mph of target movement perpendicular to your line of sight.

For example, a 4 mph mover will require a lead of about 2.5 mils.

That will work for most .308 loads out to 500 yards.

Naturally, you'll need to be using a scope at a power at which the milliradian reticle is accurate.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

sorry the unit is mils kind of hard to hold MOA. correct on the scope if you dial down a second focal plane its not a true mill any more unless you go to half power and then cut your mils in half. This could turn into a long conversation. Just keep shooting and confirming your holds and you will do fine.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sorry the unit is mils kind of hard to hold MOA.</div></div>

Not if you have a reticle which is marked in MOA.

And if you're giving mil leads for a 4 mph mover with a .308, your numbers are seriously wrong. Check them with a ballistic program for confirmation.

 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

This could get interesting, another new guy who wants to argue numbers with Lindy... it's a sport, albeit a one sided one.

As an FYI we've been shooting movers this week, 2.5 MPH and have been using a lead of 1.5 Mils as a base, sans wind. Hits O'plenty out to 500 yards.

As a PS I can hold MOA with my Mil Based reticle... roughly 1 MOA per .25 Mil = good enough for government work, and gets it done on most targets.
wink.gif
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could get interesting, another new guy who wants to argue numbers with Lindy... it's a sport, albeit a one sided one.</div></div>There's been a rash of unsupported argument here lately (I am wrestling in the Bear Pit as this is being written). I don't agree with announcing new rules just because something negative happens, but I propose a voluntary new 'gentleman's rule': that positions taken in Threads should be explained by the poster and supported by examples.
smirk.gif
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Damn. That means I'm out, too.
cry.gif


My lead at 450 yards at RO on a 4mph mover with a 15mph wind from 9 o'clock was 1.5 Mil: slighty greater than my ballistic program showed, due, probably, to my trigger control or lack thereof.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

If you're referring to the last competition at Rifles Only, the mover speed was set at about 2 - 2.5 mph. (It's set with a variable resistor, and is not precise.)

A 4 mph speed would only allow about a 13 second transit time in each direction. We run it that fast for some classes where the students are exclusively using gas guns, but not for a competition.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

It was taken from my logbook: Class in February of 2009. Jacob yelled at me to 'take that bolt gun off semi-auto'.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

It might not have been 4mph, but that's what I recorded:
75 feet / apx 5fps+ / btb 4 mph.

That, and I asked how fast it was and was told something like "time it".
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

The length of the mover run is about 70 feet.

If the target speed is 2 mph it takes about 24 seconds to run one way, and that's the speed at which it is normally set.

At 4 mph, a run one way will take 12 seconds.

If you got 5 shots per run, and it has been set at 4 mph, you'd have been firing a shot every 2.5 seconds.

Most people shooting a bolt gun are not that fast on moving targets - which is why it's rarely set that fast for rifle targets.

But, we digress.
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

I could be wrong: My data is transposed from scribbles on-the-fly.

Being wrong happened to me once before: when I though I was wrong but as it turned out I was right.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Now Lindy, a few matches ago you guys did have it set about that fast. It was the only time I have seen the course of fire for the mover be....."you can fire as many times as you like during the pass of the mover". It was screaming across the course. I came nowhere near my usual pace on the mover track that time. It was fun....but very fast.

Raul...."once I thoughy I was wrong, but I was mistaken"
 
Re: Shooting movers (humbled) why?

Thanks, Lindy. I always knew all those glasses I poured you would pay off.
 
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