Range Report Shot groups....3,5,10 rounds?

[gonzaga]

When at the range, do you guys shoot 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups or 10?

I was shooting at the range and showed my buddy some 3 shot groups.... he laughed and told me 3 shot groups were for girls and sissies......lol. said 5 shot groups are a better measure and 10 was ideal..... I respect this guy and value his opinions, he's one hell of a shot and I've just never seen anyone shoot these other groups.

Anyway, I guess I'll have to put on my big boy pants and shoot 5 & 10 shot groups to check my accuracy....

 

[kraigWY]

Your friend is correct. Three shot groups are good for getting you close when zeroing, but not for testing the shooter/rifle/ammo capabilities. Personally I'd say 10 rounds would be the min.

And not just one group but several. Everybody shoots groups, post the best, and say that's it.

I think one should realistically shoot several 10 shot groups, take the worse and admit that that is the one you can count on. Our next group will be somewhere between the best and worse. You don't want to count on your best and end up with your worse. Count on your worse and you wont be disappointed when the chips are down.

 

[gstaylorg]

Take a look at the following shot group statistical analysis webpage (particularly near the bottom):

Group Size Analysis

Obviously you can shoot many shots as you like; calling someone a sissy for 3-shots groups doesn't mean a whole lot. At least they'd probably still actually have some ammo left to shoot another day (LOL). I shoot many different group numbers, depending on what I'm doing. 3 (or less) is usually enough for a quick zero/sight in at 100 yd. Sometimes with a new load I'll do 2, 3, maybe even 4 groups of 5 at 100 yd, and determine MV at the same time (no need to waste more ammo if you can do two things at once). At 300 and 600 yd, minimum 10-shot groups, usually 15, sometimes 20 if I feel like wasting a lot of ammo. These are typically practice rounds for F-T/R competitions, because that essentially is shooting groups. If you're not shooting groups in competition of some kind, I wouldn't go overboard on shooting groups in practice. Yes it's nice to know that you and the rifle can generate small groups reproducibility (this is a precision shooting website, after all). However, at some point it just becomes a waste of expensive and possibly hard to get ammunition.

 

[wvlapua]

I was always told 3 shows what the rifle can do, 5 shows what the shooter can do. That being said, when I start working up recipes I shoot 3 shots only per charge. No use shooting 5 to start, just a waste of components imo..after I find some promising loads I will shoot several 5 shot groups at the mid and high accuracy nodes. Works for me. Once you feel you have a good load then you can shoot 10 shot groups or more and tweak seating depth, neck tension, or even primer changes to get the most out of your load.

 

[gonzaga]

Thanks for the info guys. I'm new to this accuracy game. I grew up just shooting when hunting season started, now that I have been able to afford better guns, ammo and glass I really have begun to enjoy it. I am starting to reload as well, so I'm looking to get better as time goes by.

I've never been around the long range group shooters. I was happy to see 3 shot groups well under an inch. I'll see if I can post a pic.

 

[gonzaga]

 

[acttacus]

A statistician will tell you that to be able to get a good distribution of the accuracy of your system (you+your rifle+your ammo) under a particular condition (range+weather), you need at least a 30 shots group, with a 100+ shots group preferred.

Also, there's nothing wrong with eliminating outliers (fliers) when calculating group size so long as the outlier has been tested to be statistically significant.

 

[ksthomas]

Lake City requires ten, 10-shot groups for their certifications. Their bean counters are pretty good at determining what a statistically significant number is for a given test series, and this is what they've decided upon.

No one has touched upon the obvious here; what you're testing for. It's been mentioned that three round groups don't really tell you much, nor do five round groups. Either can tell you if you've got a truly bad load, but establishing a "good" load will require a good deal more shooting. In my own case, that testing needs to include at least 20-shot strings, since that's what we shoot in competition. I've seen not only loads, but even cartridges eliminated from contention when this was factored in. That is, cartridges that delivered great five round groups, even some decent ten-shot groups, but completely fell apart when the string was extended to 20 rounds in an actual course of fire. Have to match the testing up with the real world expectation of the final product, no way around that.

 

[AZIROC]

Personally, this is how I do it;

3 shot = sighting in a scope
5 shot = doing workups with reloaded ammo to see which is ideal
10 shot = actual shooting for accuracy and see how I do (cause i know right now the gun shoots better then i will)

 

[gonzaga]

What I'm after is spending more time on the range and getting some consistant accuracy.
I'm not looking to shatter records, just eclipse some of my prior personal shots.
I appreciate the help guys, I've got some work to do. Especially when it comes to my reloading skills.

Like I said, I'm new to this type of shooting and reloading for accuracy. I'm hoping to develop a good load that I get good accuracy out of. Mostly so I can get better at the range and spend time shooting with the kids.

 

[MD2Colo]

if 100 is the max range, I like to throw a bunch of 1" pasties on a big piece of butcher block paper. after confirming zero, of course. $.02

-I this this website has essentially the same thing, the 'Dot Drill'. downloadable free of charge, if I remember correctly.

Just my opinion, but you might get more out of your time/money if you try that dot drill versus just shooting groups. Will definitely reveal where the weak spots are

Yah, but obviously if you're doing load development shooting groups IAW the OCW method or ladder test or whatever you choose then yes, shooting groups is mandatory.

You said you were testing accuracy and precision so that's why I brought the 1" pastie stuff up-

 

[damoncali]

What you need is lots of groups between 5 and 8 shots. Five 5 shot groups will give you a good deal more information than one 25 shot group.

 

[mike.h.]

when doing these drills, how much time between shots?

thanks

 

[Down South]

I was always told 3 shows what the rifle can do, 5 shows what the shooter can do. That being said, when I start working up recipes I shoot 3 shots only per charge. No use shooting 5 to start, just a waste of components imo..after I find some promising loads I will shoot several 5 shot groups at the mid and high accuracy nodes. Works for me. Once you feel you have a good load then you can shoot 10 shot groups or more and tweak seating depth, neck tension, or even primer changes to get the most out of your load.

Bingo!........Pretty much exactly what i do also.

 

[Bill Larson]

I believe it depends on what kinda gun you`re testing.....chronograph loads to evaluate ammo.......
hunting/sniper...... cold bore shot.. dirty barrel.... 1 shot each day.. for 5 days..... same target....same ammo...same temp.....
short range benchrest...... 5 shot groups....warm barrel.....with siters....
tactical/:F: class.... 15-20 shots in 20 minutes....
different guns and their applications require different evaluation..... consider your useage.....
bill larson

 

[kraigWY]

I think Bill Larson hit the nail on the head, regarding sniper rifles. Especially LE rifles. You don't care how it groups, you care that the first shot goes where its suppose to do.

That's exactly how I zeroed or checked the zero on my rifle. I'd take it out and shoot it one shot a shot at a target, and used it. Next day, hopefully under different conditions, I'd fire one more shot at the target, do this for several days and do it every time I went to the range. Only counting the first shot if I shot more then once. I never shot it clean in this manner. If I cleaned it, I shoot several more rounds, put it back in the case, back in the trunk of my patrol car and a few hours later I'd get it out and fire one more round to make sure it still shot where it was suppose to.

Hunting rifles are different. No since in shooting more then 3-5 rounds, if you need more while hunting then you have other problems besides the rifle. I hunt with Model 70s, they are zeroed, to check them I have gongs the size of the vital area of an antelope (smallest animal I hunt). I have them set up at 100, 200, and 300. To check the zero I shoot one round at each using the kneeling position (my weakest position when hunting, I hardly ever shoot standing while hunting). I really don't care how my hunting rifles group at 100 yards from a sandbagged bench positions. I'm more interested in how it shoots from a setting position in the prairie, normally while I'm setting on cactus. Seems to be the law around here.

Target rifles require 20 shot strings, so I shoot 20-30 shot groups.

But I don't do this from the bench. On the sniper rifle I carried, I'd shoot it over the hood of the car, slung prone, or kneeling, or setting. Best shoot in the same place.

Same with hunting, prone, kneeling and setting, all in the same group.

Target rifles, setting, rapid fire, prone slow and rapid fire. And standing.

Shooting from the bench tells me nothing about shooting standing on my hind legs, or the other positions.

Think about how you are going to shoot in the field, be it hunting, target shooting, or what ever. In your same group, take a few shots in each position to get an idea of what your shooter/rifle/ammo combination groups will be.